difference between open/closed headphones

[creatip123]

Because it's not. First one was more treble-y anyways in the violin recording.

 

But notice the violin sound was almost (if it's not already) mono, and the music don't have much wideness to begin with. The violin sound came from 1 exact spot, in the front only. True, should have written about it. I'll edit it.

[Art Vandelay]

Closed headphones tend to be louder in the higher range, in my experience. It gives me a headache.

[Guest]

But notice the violin sound was almost (if it's not already) mono, and the music don't have much wideness to begin with. The violin sound came from 1 exact spot, in the front only. True, should have written about it. I'll edit it.

 

Once again my problem with the whole concept of soundstage, people can't even define the difference between it and stereo imaging.

 

[ShearMe]

Closed headphones tend to be louder in the higher range, in my experience. It gives me a headache.

 

Could easily say the opposite, given the appropriate sampling. 

 

Closed-backs are usually designed with the intention of providing lots of bass, while that thinking goes out the windows with cheaper open headphones.

 

 

Once again my problem with the whole concept of soundstage, people can't even define the difference between it and stereo imaging.

 

Oh, THAT'S your problem?

 

I thought there wasn't a difference.

[Guest]

I thought there wasn't a difference.

 

That's the thing, there isn't a clear definition.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Could easily say the opposite, given the appropriate sampling. 

 

Closed-backs are usually designed with the intention of providing lots of bass, while that thinking goes out the windows with cheaper open headphones.

 

By the high end I meant screechy sounds. I've not listened to too many closed back headphones, mostly cheap ones like Sony MDR-V6 and some of the lower end audio-technica ones. They all have me a bit of a headache.

 

All of the cheaper open ear heaphones I've had have had fairly light bass.

[creatip123]

By the high end I meant screechy sounds. I've not listened to too many closed back headphones, mostly cheap ones like Sony MDR-V6 and some of the lower end audio-technica ones. They all have me a bit of a headache.

 

All of the cheaper open ear heaphones I've had have had fairly light bass.

 

The headache might come from the air pressure of the driver's movements, especially in the kick/low freq parts of the song/sound. 

 

The concept is: the driver makes sound by vibrating/moving back and forth, pushing air, right? With open backs, the air pushed to the back of the driver mostly dissipates to the environment (thus, 'leaking sounds'), and a few percents got bounced back. With closed backs, that air are mostly bounced back to the ears, making it sound louder, also gives the ears more pressure. Depending on the design of the cup, the bounced-backed sound might have a bit of delay (in fractions of seconds) making the sound, what people call 'muddied'. 

[Guest]

Depending on the design of the cup, the bounced-backed sound might have a bit of delay (in fractions of seconds) making the sound, what people call 'muddied'. 

 

That's not how it works. If it were, open headphones would have just as much of a problem; the whole idea that the open back causes fewer reflections in the cup is extremely spurious and not backed up by measurements.

 

"Mud" refers specifically to excessive boost centered around 200Hz. Cheap headphones are usually closed AND have excessive bass boost, which results in the "muddy" signature - not some bs about reflections. Open headphones usually lack any kind of bass boost whatsoever and therefore sound more neutral. On top of that, there are virtually no cheap open headphones so people naturally associate a more hi-fi sound with open backs.

[creatip123]

That's not how it works. If it were, open headphones would have just as much of a problem; the whole idea that the open back causes fewer reflections in the cup is extremely spurious and not backed up by measurements.

 

"Mud" refers specifically to excessive boost centered around 200Hz. Cheap headphones are usually closed AND have excessive bass boost, which results in the "muddy" signature - not some bs about reflections. Open headphones usually lack any kind of bass boost whatsoever and therefore sound more neutral. On top of that, there are virtually no cheap open headphones so people naturally associate a more hi-fi sound with open backs.

 

Hmmm, but then again, what causes a closed-back headphone to sound 'closed', if it's not the reflection? Even on good and wide sounding closed back like the MDR-1A, or even LCD-XC, it still sound 'closed'. I think the XC uses the exact same driver as the LCD-X, but differ in the cup design, of course. LCD-X sounds open, while the XC sounds closed.

 

Or, if looking at the reversed angle, if the whole 'reflections in the cup' is a complete fallacy, then we should be able to take a closed back headphone, take away the back walls of the cup (almost all, leaving just enough material to keep it together), maybe put a plastic/aluminium mesh to cover it (just to simulate the designs of most open backs), and it will sound more or less the same. 

 

About the mud, I got it (the concept) from this reading:

 

 

the more rigid the walls, the more reflective they are at low frequencies

*http://realtraps.com/facts.htm=> they're selling products tho, so the article might be biased, I can accept that.

 

What I got from that sentence is that low frequencies got reflected more than mid and higher freqs, considering its application in headphones (relatively rigid plastic material walls). So it's natural that with reflection in mind (assuming it's there), the low frequencies got bloated more than the mid and higher freqs. compared to the original source (without reflections)

 

Audio technica produces some low-ends (and good) open backs, tho, the TAD series, but yeah, stuffs that are lower priced than that are usually closed back. 

 

*holy crap, the TAD-300 is now $50+ on amazon. I bought one for ~$40 a while back. 

[Whit3Rav3n]

Hmmm, but then again, what causes a closed-back headphone to sound 'closed', if it's not the reflection? Even on good and wide sounding closed back like the MDR-1A, or even LCD-XC, it still sound 'closed'. I think the XC uses the exact same driver as the LCD-X, but differ in the cup design, of course. LCD-X sounds open, while the XC sounds closed.

 

Or, if looking at the reversed angle, if the whole 'reflections in the cup' is a complete fallacy, then we should be able to take a closed back headphone, take away the back walls of the cup (almost all, leaving just enough material to keep it together), maybe put a plastic/aluminium mesh to cover it (just to simulate the designs of most open backs), and it will sound more or less the same. 

 

About the mud, I got it (the concept) from this reading:

 

*http://realtraps.com/facts.htm=> they're selling products tho, so the article might be biased, I can accept that.

 

What I got from that sentence is that low frequencies got reflected more than mid and higher freqs, considering its application in headphones (relatively rigid plastic material walls). So it's natural that with reflection in mind (assuming it's there), the low frequencies got bloated more than the mid and higher freqs. compared to the original source (without reflections)

 

Audio technica produces some low-ends (and good) open backs, tho, the TAD series, but yeah, stuffs that are lower priced than that are usually closed back. 

 

*holy crap, the TAD-300 is now $50+ on amazon. I bought one for ~$40 a while back. 

 

Or even easier, take an open back headphone (I tested it with an hd 800) and cover the headphone cups with your hands. You will immediately notice a quite big change in the sound signature. Reflections in the headphone are definitely an important issue when designing a headphone.

[Guest]

Or even easier, take an open back headphone (I tested it with an hd 800) and cover the headphone cups with your hands. You will immediately notice a quite big change in the sound signature. Reflections in the headphone are definitely an important issue when designing a headphone.

 

Hmmm, but then again, what causes a closed-back headphone to sound 'closed', if it's not the reflection? Even on good and wide sounding closed back like the MDR-1A, or even LCD-XC, it still sound 'closed'. I think the XC uses the exact same driver as the LCD-X, but differ in the cup design, of course. LCD-X sounds open, while the XC sounds closed.

 

Or, if looking at the reversed angle, if the whole 'reflections in the cup' is a complete fallacy, then we should be able to take a closed back headphone, take away the back walls of the cup (almost all, leaving just enough material to keep it together), maybe put a plastic/aluminium mesh to cover it (just to simulate the designs of most open backs), and it will sound more or less the same. 

 

No, no, no.

 

Acoustic impedance and damping. When you cover the backs of an open headphone with your hands, you are changing the acoustic impedance of the chamber, which changes the damping and thus the sound signature. The opposite effect would occur if you turned a closed headphone open. It's also the same principle that changes the sound when you go from velour to softskin pads.

 

I'm not saying that open and closed don't sound different, or that reflections don't play a role, but your underestimating the effect of simple frequency response differences on sound. I'm also saying that IF reflections are causing a change in sound, it should be visible in an FR or CSD plot.

[creatip123]

Or even easier, take an open back headphone (I tested it with an hd 800) and cover the headphone cups with your hands. You will immediately notice a quite big change in the sound signature. Reflections in the headphone are definitely an important issue when designing a headphone.

 

True. I was thinking of 'subtracting' something, not adding, but it's basically the same thing there...

[Art Vandelay]

The headache might come from the air pressure of the driver's movements, especially in the kick/low freq parts of the song/sound. 

 

The concept is: the driver makes sound by vibrating/moving back and forth, pushing air, right? With open backs, the air pushed to the back of the driver mostly dissipates to the environment (thus, 'leaking sounds'), and a few percents got bounced back. With closed backs, that air are mostly bounced back to the ears, making it sound louder, also gives the ears more pressure. Depending on the design of the cup, the bounced-backed sound might have a bit of delay (in fractions of seconds) making the sound, what people call 'muddied'. 

Yeah, the sound pressure might be the issue, I'd imagine it's greater at a louder volume. It might also be something to do with it not feeling natural when there's no sound leakage

 

I really doubt the delay changes the sound significantly. It only takes a couple hundred microseconds for sound to travel back and forth in a pair of headphones.

 

Closed back headphones just sound differently because of the way the sound refracts off the backing or something like that. Different backings give different sound signatures. Anyone with a pair of modded HD558s or HD555s know that even a fairly small change in the backing (removing the foam strip) makes a difference.

 

 

No, no, no.

 

Acoustic impedance and damping. When you cover the backs of an open headphone with your hands, you are changing the acoustic impedance of the chamber, which changes the damping and thus the sound signature. The opposite effect would occur if you turned a closed headphone open. It's also the same principle that changes the sound when you go from velour to softskin pads.

 

I'm not saying that open and closed don't sound different, or that reflections don't play a role, but your underestimating the effect of simple frequency response differences on sound. I'm also saying that IF reflections are causing a change in sound, it should be visible in an FR or CSD plot.

When I try covering the backs of my HD650s, which are still very open, I notice some difference in the very high sounds in music. It would seem like the damping caused by that wouldn't be that significant, but I'm not an expert on accoustics.

[almoskosz]

Woah, you must look at graphs a lot.

 

What are these?

This is a graph, representing the VOLUME of sounds the headphone at certain frequencies produces.

The bane of the headphone making is to reach the perfect straight line in the middle, at least for monitoring headphones.

The lines shouldn't have big waves, because it makes an uneven sound then.

 

I hope it helped

[Guest]

This is a graph, representing the VOLUME of sounds the headphone at certain frequencies produces.

The bane of the headphone making is to reach the perfect straight line in the middle, at least for monitoring headphones.

The lines shouldn't have big waves, because it makes an uneven sound then.

 

I hope it helped

 

top kek

 

[Pomfinator]

"Wider soundstage" is bullshit for open vs closed headphones.  If any of you have listened to a wooden Audio-Technica...man those cans make things sound like they're miles away from you, especially the W1000Z I was able to try in January.

[ShearMe]

This is a graph, representing the VOLUME of sounds the headphone at certain frequencies produces.

The bane of the headphone making is to reach the perfect straight line in the middle, at least for monitoring headphones.

The lines shouldn't have big waves, because it makes an uneven sound then.

 

I hope it helped

 

I was jokingly asking SSL if he could pick out which three headphones they were. Read the thread for context next time.

[BoredErica]

This is a graph, representing the VOLUME of sounds the headphone at certain frequencies produces.

The bane of the headphone making is to reach the perfect straight line in the middle, at least for monitoring headphones.

The lines shouldn't have big waves, because it makes an uneven sound then.

 

I hope it helped

These are headphones, not speakers in a treated room. Pretty sure we're not looking for a flat line here.

[creatip123]

"Wider soundstage" is bullshit for open vs closed headphones.  If any of you have listened to a wooden Audio-Technica...man those cans make things sound like they're miles away from you, especially the W1000Z I was able to try in January.

 

Dunno how the W1000z compares to the W5000 Raffinato, but even with Raffinato, it still sounds closed (meaning, even in a blind test, I'm confident that I could tell it's a closed back headphone).

 

Don't get me wrong, the Raffinato sounds delicious, very enjoyable, but still distinguishable that it's a closed headphone from the sound. 

 

LCD-XC has everything the Raffinato got, and then some. I'd place Raffinato as the 'toned down version' or the cheaper version of the XC.

[Pomfinator]

Dunno how the W1000z compares to the W5000 Raffinato, but even with Raffinato, it still sounds closed (meaning, even in a blind test, I'm confident that I could tell it's a closed back headphone)

I didn't really say it didn't sound closed.  I just said the soundstage was stupidly large despite being closed, and larger than most open headphones, so the concept that "wider soundstage" == open headphone is ludicrous.

[creatip123]

I didn't really say it didn't sound closed.  I just said the soundstage was stupidly large despite being closed, and larger than most open headphones, so the concept that "wider soundstage" == open headphone is ludicrous.

 

Wide, not exactly. Wider than 90% of closed headphones, maybe, but not wider than many (if any) open backed, at least the one I tried. Even the el cheapo TAD-300 got wider spatial imaging, let alone the AD700, the one on my avatar. 

 

It's more likely they controlled the bounced back sound to be more nice sounding and less intrusive, so even though it sounded like in a small closed room, but it's like a room with a proper/good acoustic treatment. Maybe got something to do with the use of wood as the cup. This is assuming the W1000 sounds more or less similar with the one I tried, W5000 Raffinato. Upgrade the Raffinato, and it's LCD-XC. More or less the same bounced back sounds/feel, but sounds a lot better.