More Snowden Leaks, NSA to world: "GET REKT"

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

How is Snowden a scumbag? Because he dared to share the truth and tell us, the Americans, what we were suppose to know and that the government was overreaching? Or because he took refuge (I believe in one of the only paces he could go) in Russia?

He didn't want to stay in Russia.  He was on his way from Hong Kong (where he gave his documents to Glenn Greenwald) to South America when the US government pulled his passport.  As a result he got stranded on the Moscow airport. 

 

That guy not only deserves a full presidential pardon, he should get a statue as well. 

 

TBH this isn't really news to me.  I can only urge everyone to read Greenwald's "No place to hide", the offical book on Snowden and the NSA.   Some of the stuff in there is just mindblowing and proves that the tin-foil hat brigade was right all along.

Also check out the NBC interview if you haven't already.  link to dailymotion, as I suspect YT might restrict it to some

(you can also find the interview on various p2p sites, in better quality and with better editing, searching for "Snowden NBC" should do the trick)

[E-Ro]

God I hope I am misunderstanding your post somehow.

 

How is Snowden a scumbag? Because he dared to share the truth and tell us, the Americans, what we were suppose to know and that the government was overreaching? Or because he took refuge (I believe in one of the only paces he could go) in Russia?

First of all, if you needed Snowden to tell you the government spies on its own people as well as other governments around the world you probably aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. Every government in existence spies, and they have been doing this since the first governments were formed. It is just incredibly easy now with technology. By coming forward with things that should be obvious, all he did was put American lives in danger and cause political issues with our allies(who btw, spy on us just as much as we spy on them) I mean really, when you have the heads of other governments coming forward and saying that yeah, what Snowden did put people at risk, then it isn't really up for debate.  

 

What changes exactly did Snowdens leak cause? Did anything change as a result of his information being made public? Nope. Did people on the internet bitch and complain about what anyone with half a brain already knew but nothing actually changed? Ok then.

He didn't want to go to Russia.

He wanted to disappear in South America. USA revoking his passport and grounding diplomatic planes that might have taken him on-board made him unable to leave Moscow airport until Russians gave him a permit to enter their country.

It doesn't matter where he took off to. The fact that he fled the country says it all. If he had faith and conviction that what he did was truly the right thing to do, he should have remained in the United States and faced a court of law. That would have been the proper course of action.

I understand this is going to be an un-popular opinion around here, because everyone's all "hruuuur gubment spy bad!" but that's an easy stance to take when your behind your computer, safe and sound, and all you have to worry about is some guy reading your emails.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

It doesn't matter where he took off to. The fact that he fled the country says it all. If he had faith and conviction that what he did was truly the right thing to do, he should have remained in the United States and faced a court of law. That would have been the proper course of action.

He explained more than once that with the accusations he's facing, you don't get an open trial or even a chance to defend yourself.  Remember Chelsea (then Bradley) Manning?  She didn't get a trial either.

 

He also didn't put any life at stake.  Not a single one.  He even openly asked the government to provide evidence that he did endanger lives, and after a year they still can't.

[E-Ro]

He explained more than once that with the accusations he's facing, you don't get an open trial or even a chance to defend yourself.

He is wrong on that count. Laws are in place that protect whistle blowers. The debate is whether you consider him  a whistle-blower or not. His fleeing pretty much shows us he has zero faith in his own actions. 

 

Here is an exert from a great article on the matter(link to the full piece below). 

 

 

 

This being said, while I personally felt this all made him a traitor, in the early days of the Snowden story I felt that there could a legitimate debate over whether he was a whistleblower or not. After all, while fleeing abroad certainly made Snowden a coward, it didn’t necessarily preclude him from being a whistleblower. The information he disclosed wasn’t necessarily any less important to restoring Americans’ liberty because of his personal shortcomings.

 

It has long since become apparent that Snowden should be viewed as a traitor, however. The main reason that Snowden cannot be seen as a whistleblower is the careless ways in which he collected and leaked information, which have only become fully apparent after the first month or so of the Snowden story breaking. Had Snowden been a whistleblower interested in protecting the American constitution, he would have carefully collected information documenting NSA overreach in spying on Americans. Only that would have been given to the journalists and newspapers Snowden contacted.

 

Instead, he collected an apparently unknowable amount of information (unknowable to both him and the NSA) and dumped it on the doorsteps of largely foreign newspapers. As he no doubt fully understood, most of these documents contained information pertaining to how the NSA collected intelligence on legitimate foreign targets, not Americans whatsoever.

 

 

http://thediplomat.com/2013/12/yes-edward-snowden-is-a-traitor/

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

He is wrong on that count. Laws are in place that protect whistle blowers. The debate is whether you consider him  a whistle-blower or not. His fleeing pretty much shows us he has zero faith in his own actions.  

That's the topic of discussion indeed.  Snowden says he tried repeatedly to follow the usual channels to voice his concerns (which has been confirmed), but it seems his only option was to throw the documents out in public after all. 

No matter how you turn it, the government is accusing him of "aiding the enemy" by releasing the documents and is going after him with the espionage act, which means the whistleblower protection is off the table. 

 

Come to think of it, I can't recall a single government-related whistleblower lately who didn't get accused of espionage. 

 

 

 

EDIT : Reading the article in thediplomat you linked to, I find it striking that they say he "carelessly collected and released the material". 

Greenwald mentions in his book that Snowden's archive was extraordinarily well organized and obviously filtered already to make sure no lives could be at stake.  Snowden also asked Greenwald to go through everything and filter it again to make sure, as well as let the government agencies chime in to prevent loss of life.  That really contradicts the article.

 

He also didn't "dump it on the doorstep of largely foreign newspapers".  Glenn Greenwald was carefully chosen by Snowden because he had been covering the NSA for years already, and he had to rely on the Guardian UK because none of the US newspapers were willing to take the risk of getting in trouble with the government.

 

Sorry, but IMO that Keck character that wrote the article obviously hasn't done his homework and hence replaces the facts with his opinion.

[Omon_Ra]

First of all, if you needed Snowden to tell you the government spies on its own people as well as other governments around the world you probably aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. Every government in existence spies, and they have been doing this since the first governments were formed. It is just incredibly easy now with technology. By coming forward with things that should be obvious, all he did was put American lives in danger and cause political issues with our allies(who btw, spy on us just as much as we spy on them) I mean really, when you have the heads of other governments coming forward and saying that yeah, what Snowden did put people at risk, then it isn't really up for debate.

 

What changes exactly did Snowdens leak cause? Did anything change as a result of his information being made public? Nope. Did people on the internet bitch and complain about what anyone with half a brain already knew but nothing actually changed? Ok then.

It doesn't matter where he took off to. The fact that he fled the country says it all. If he had faith and conviction that what he did was truly the right thing to do, he should have remained in the United States and faced a court of law. That would have been the proper course of action.

I understand this is going to be an un-popular opinion around here, because everyone's all "hruuuur gubment spy bad!" but that's an easy stance to take when your behind your computer, safe and sound, and all you have to worry about is some guy reading your emails.

 

It's one thing to have unconfirmed suspicions, it's another to have concrete evidence. Sure, spying has been around forever, but the extent and means of the intelligence gathering are far and beyond any previous generation. Whether or not this information was known publicly doesn't make what the government is doing any more Constitutional or legal. There has been no proven evidence that any of this has prevented any specific threat or potential attack on US citizens.

 

There have been no changes because there is barely any legal recourse, no accountability, oversight or any means that we, the outraged citizens, can alter the NSA policies. Obama has said some empty words about protecting privacy and other nonsense, but like most of his Presidency, it's been a lot of talk.

 

What these new leaks are really showing is the escalation of the 'digital arms race.' America's work to undermine, exploit and compromise the networks of the world is only exacerbating the threat that Americans face; more so than some nebulous threat of 'terrorism.' This response from Snowden's PBS interview explains this:

 

I do agree that when it comes to cyber warfare, we have more to lose than any other nation on earth. The technical sector is the backbone of the American economy, and if we start engaging in these kind of behaviors, in these kind of attacks, we’re setting a standard, we’re creating a new international norm of behavior that says this is what nations do. This is what developed nations do. This is what democratic nations do. So other countries that don’t have as much respect for the rules as we do will go even further.

 

...

 

We spend more on research and development than these other countries, so we shouldn’t be making the internet a more hostile, a more aggressive territory. We should be cooling down the tensions, making it a more trusted environment, making it a more secure environment, making it a more reliable environment, because that’s the foundation of our economy and our future. We have to be able to rely on a safe and interconnected internet in order to compete.

 

And the last part of your statement doesn't make sense, '...that's an easy stance to take when your behind your computer, safe and sound, and all you have to worry about is some guy reading your emails.' What does that even mean? It's an easy stance to take because at lowest level, the unwarranted data collection is a violation of the Fourth Amendment and should be deemed un-Constitutional.

 

When you blindly follow anything government officials say, then there's no point to debate..

[Guest]

"hruuuur gubment spy bad!" that's an easy stance to take when your behind your computer, safe and sound, and all you have to worry about is some guy reading your emails.

 

What I have to worry about is not 'some guy reading my emails'.

What I have to worry about is a group of guys running a network of machines that's reading everyone's emails.

Analyzing and recording everyone's location throughout the day using the cellular infrastructure.

Manipulating people on forums (JTRIG).

Introducing insecurities into encryption standards and key internet infrastructure (server and router implants).

Knowledge is power and these guys are amassing immense IMMENSE power over journalists, activists, companies, lawmakers, lawyers and judges all over the world.

What I have to worry about is these guys- who have taken upon themselves to shape societies to their liking through illegal means before- doing it again, but much more efficiently and on a global scale.

[Trik'Stari]

He is wrong on that count. Laws are in place that protect whistle blowers. The debate is whether you consider him  a whistle-blower or not. His fleeing pretty much shows us he has zero faith in his own actions. 

 

Here is an exert from a great article on the matter(link to the full piece below). 

 

   

 -snip

Considering that he probably would have never made it to trial if he had gone through the normal routes, and that nothing would have been done to make the public aware, I feel his actions were justified.

 

Chances are, knowing how these government agencies are, he'd have been arrested, and then promptly found "having hung himself" in his prison cell. Sure it sounds ridiculous, but would you really put it past them knowing that they already spy on everyone, hack into computer systems and have it lead back to 3rd party "scapegoat" systems, etc.

[mr moose]

Looking at it from the outside, I honestly think he fled because on the balance of probability he was not going to get a fair trial.  There are after all laws in America that allow the government to lock him up indefinitely as a terrorist. Want proof they will do that? Just look at Julian Assange, he's hauled up in the Ecuador embassy on threat of extradition to face charges in America for a crime he didn't commit.  And he's not an American, didn't steal anything and broke no American laws on American soil.

[Mooshi]

For anyone calling Snowden the bad guy, I'd like to ask which side are you even on? The government is granted it's power "by the people", not the other way around. That's what the government ended up doing, giving itself way too much power without consent of the very people it was given power by. You don't serve the government, the government serves you. You're their boss and it's up to the people to keep the government in check. This is what Snowden has been doing. On one end, he's a traitor, but on the other end, he's a traitor to a government who already betrayed the trust of the people. 

 

I sure do feel safe my government is spying on me having a Skype call with friends as we discuss video games, clearly this is keeping the country safe and isn't a breach in privacy or overstepping authority. /s

[Trik'Stari]

Looking at it from the outside, I honestly think he fled because on the balance of probability he was not going to get a fair trial.  There are after all laws in America that allow the government to lock him up indefinitely as a terrorist. Want proof they will do that? Just look at Julian Assange, he's hauled up in the Ecuador embassy on threat of extradition to face charges in America for a crime he didn't commit.  And he's not an American, didn't steal anything and broke no American laws on American soil.

I really doubt he'd have made it to trial at all to be honest. And as for "secret prison" well....he'd have ended up "hanging himself" somehow.

[Guest]

 Just look at Julian Assange, he's hauled up in the Ecuador embassy on threat of extradition to face charges in America for a crime he didn't commit.

 

Julian Assange is facing a threat of extradition to Sweden where 2 women say that they suspect he made a hole in his condom on 2 separate occasions when having sex with each of them.

Neither of them got pregnant or presumably contracted an STD, but they are traumatized by the thought and want him to get tested for STDs and stand trial.

[mr moose]

Julian Assange is facing a threat of extradition to Sweden where 2 women say that they suspect he made a hole in his condom on 2 separate occasions when having sex with each of them.

Neither of them got pregnant or presumably contracted an STD, but they are traumatized by the thought and want him to get tested for STDs and stand trial.

That's irrelevant to the US wanting him and the alleged laws he broke.  Also the Swedish authorities were invited to question him in the embassy over those allegations but they refused,  They have eye witnesses saying that everything that happened on the night in question was consensual, including video footage from the restaurant and hotel. There are more holes in those claims than in the alleged condom.

[Omon_Ra]

Julian Assange is facing a threat of extradition to Sweden where 2 women say that they suspect he made a hole in his condom on 2 separate occasions when having sex with each of them.

Neither of them got pregnant or presumably contracted an STD, but they are traumatized by the thought and want him to get tested for STDs and stand trial.

 

That's irrelevant to the US wanting him and the alleged laws he broke.  Also the Swedish authorities were invited to question him in the embassy over those allegations but they refused,  They have eye witnesses saying that everything that happened on the night in question was consensual, including video footage from the restaurant and hotel. There are more holes in those claims than in the alleged condom.

 

The concerns with Assange being tried in Sweden are that the Swedish authorities will then turn him over to the United States. I don't know enough about the accusations leveled against him, but it does seem a bit setup and a pretext for extradition to the States.

[Albatross]

He didn't want to stay in Russia.  He was on his way from Hong Kong (where he gave his documents to Glenn Greenwald) to South America when the US government pulled his passport.  As a result he got stranded on the Moscow airport. 

 

That guy not only deserves a full presidential pardon, he should get a statue as well. 

 

TBH this isn't really news to me.  I can only urge everyone to read Greenwald's "No place to hide", the offical book on Snowden and the NSA.   Some of the stuff in there is just mindblowing and proves that the tin-foil hat brigade was right all along.

Also check out the NBC interview if you haven't already.  link to dailymotion, as I suspect YT might restrict it to some

(you can also find the interview on various p2p sites, in better quality and with better editing, searching for "Snowden NBC" should do the trick)

 

I know that. I  couldn't figure out a way to word it any better.

 

I agree, he deserves it. But I doubt Obama is on our side of thinking when it comes to Snowden.

 

@E-Ro

 

How will conviction save him from what the government wants to do with him? His faith and conviction would not prevent injustice being done against him. Stop being so naive.

[mr moose]

The concerns with Assange being tried in Sweden are that the Swedish authorities will then turn him over to the United States. I don't know enough about the accusations leveled against him, but it does seem a bit setup and a pretext for extradition to the States.

 

Until the US swears in public and guarantees in writing they will not extradite him from Sweden then that is the most logical conclusion from the whole ordeal.  Seeing as the UK have already said the second he steps out of the embassy he will be arrested and sent to sweden, and no one else will guarantee immunity from US extradition you'd have to be very naive to assume anything different.