Open headphones with large sound stage & strong bass?

[creatip123]

 

 

 

 

...exactly...

 

 

This one I agree, simply 'can't believe everything the seller is saying'

 

 

 

Pseudoscience will definitely make you sound crazy.

 

 

Ummm to say Tyll thrives on pseudosciences (and have the words hold some weight), actually needs some debunking, or even just backing data. For example, I can easily say 'the fact that the world is round is a lie', but for the words to hold some weight, I gotta be able to debunk the fact that the world is round, or at least present some data to back my words, wouldn't it?

 

 

 

I don't disagree with anything this says, but it doesn't add to your argument either, so...

 

 

Maybe read it again:

 

 

 

Planar magnetic drivers

There are numerous advantages to the use of Planar Magnetic Drivers (PMDs):

 

Highly detailed

Planar magnetic drivers are like electrostatic speakers (ESLs) in that the moving mass of the diaphragm is extremely small, lighter even than the air it moves. It can therefore be driven with both delicacy and accuracy, without the blurring effects of excessive inertia.

 

* underlined: accuracy part

 

More reliable

Planar magnetics have a huge advantage over traditional dynamic drivers, in that the “voice coil” is spread out over a large area rather than squeezed into a narrow gap within a massive chunk of metal. As a result, planar magnetic drivers can dissipate heat effectively that would otherwise build up in a traditional voice coil. Planar magnetic speakers can handle a lot of power without undue stress or audible strain. In fact, for a given surface area, they can handle many times the power of a traditional dynamic driver.

 

* underlined: handle more power. My logic: low frequencies comes from a diaphragm that vibrate slower in frequency but longer in time (even in fractions of seconds, still accountable by the scale) than highs. The Lambda (wave longitude) of lows is longer than highs, more surface area below the sine wave, ~more power needed to maintain the sine wave from distorting. Handling big power surges (as in highs) shouldn't be a problem, but handling longer, stable power (as in lows) would make the resistance (voice coil in dynamic drivers, or snake-like metal parts in planar diaphragm) heats up. Planar's diaphragm should be able to vibrate relatively much longer than dynamic drivers due to it's ability to handle more heat, thus making it handle more power to maintain the lows' sine waves from distorting. 

 

Well, I could dig up more references, only takes a few minutes of googling, but somehow I doubt it'd make a difference though...

 

 

 

You're forgetting that audiopeelz want a difficult-to-drive headphone so they can justify their expensive amplifiers.

 

 

This.....is not me, but I can accept that. For me, the less moolah I shell out, the better...

 

 

Again, tldr, and gg language differences.

 

Quoted wrong. It shouldn't be in the reply to dark_wizzie, it's actually a reply to this: 

 

 

Red box: this is still assuming that more area means it vibrates more accurately.

 

Which is a reply to this:

 

 

This is because the surface area of the diaphragm of planar drivers are bigger than dynamic ones, and can vibrate more accurately.

 

It's an 'and', 2 different things. Not causality (bigger size enables it to vibrate more accurately), like you said in 'assuming that more area means it vibrates more accurately.'

 

'I can cook, and I can play music' is different than 'I can cook means I can play music'

 

Say 'language difference' all you like, but I'm sure you get my point....

[Lays]

The whole 1-4w thing is from the old lcd2 apparently when it was less sensitive, people recommend 0.5-2 watts now. I think it is what creatip said, 93/vrms because at high volume my o2 clipped in the bass region quite a bit with big bass drops. I think it had like 300mw into 70 ohms.

 

 

The LCD-2 has an impedance of 50 ohms, which is purely resistive and is almost perfectly flat across the entire frequency range.http://www.audeze.com/2009/12/waterfall-plots-low-frequency-extensi... Lets us say you listen to symphony-orchestra. This type of music can have dynamic range of 60 dB. i.e if silence (room noise) is at 60 dB (LCD-2 is pen type headphone design with almost no attenuation of ambient noise) and the maximum occasional peak needs to be 120 dB. I am just giving an example here, but depending upon the type of music and the recording this varies. 120 dB is very loud - almost Rock Concert level close to the speaker. For the LCD-2, if you put 1 mw of power, you get about 90dB output. For this example, let us assume 90dB is the level you listen normally. To reproduce the occasional 120 dB peak without clipping on the LCD-2,  the amplifier would have to output 1000 times more power than 1mw, i.e 1 W. So, an amplifier that can output 1w is the bare minimum. Amplifiers will have distortion metrics at different wattage levels. If an amp can output maximum 1w it would be barely sufficient and might have a lot of distortion at full output.

 

OLD LCD 2 ^

[zikky]

I use V-moda m80 for stroling around and for working out... Nothig fancy only 150 usd... But they are good. The m100 are bigger and should yield better base. They are the best headphones ive had in that price range

[creatip123]

snip

 

Whew, I was wondering how could they even recommend 112dB - 117dB SPL to users. I forgot it's for the SPL peaks of the songs playing, not the whole way across the songs. I understand it better now. It's like, 'when (occasionally) the headphone needs sudden power input for big peaks, will your amp be ready to supply it? Or will it fall behind (causing clips or distortions)?'

 

Thank you, that's the bit of the puzzle I've been trying to find...

[Lays]

Whew, I was wondering how could they even recommend 112dB - 117dB SPL to users. I forgot it's for the SPL peaks of the songs playing, not the whole way across the songs. I understand it better now. It's like, 'when (occasionally) the headphone needs sudden power input for big peaks, will your amp be ready to supply it? Or will it fall behind (causing clips or distortions)?'

 

Thank you, that's the bit of the puzzle I've been trying to find...

 

 

I think they over exaggerate on the amount of SPL peaks that are in things, but it's better to over exaggerate than to under exaggerate and have tons of distortion clipping

[BoredErica]

Tyll's current measurements of LCD2 say that it is even more efficient than Audeze's rating of 93 db/mw. His measurements calculate to like 97 db/mw or something. Still a little less sensitive than HD800 even with the more optimistic number though I believe. One other iffy spec on Audeze's website is where they rank LCD X as being just as light as LCD-2, which shouldn't be the case.

 

The current LCD-2 has 70ohm impedance, not 50. Tyll's measurements show 72ohms. Having a higher impedance makes the headphone require less power. In order to get the hardest to play song, you need a song that has constant, quiet parts with sudden bursts of loud notes and the entire song has to be recorded and mastered very well. That's a pretty specific type of song. That's not a normal orchestrated track. Emorarity has said before that he felt Nwavguy's 110 db target is already pretty ridiculous. Here we're taking it to 115 or 120db.

 

 

DIFFICULT MUSIC: The most challenging music is where the average volume is always relatively low prompting you to turn up the volume but there are very brief transients that are far higher in level. This is most common in audiophile recordings where very little or no compression is used and there are Sforzando (brief loud) notes in the music. This is very different than say symphonic classical music that builds up to fairly high sustainedaverage levels  (i.e. crescendos) that will have you turning down the volume. Brief loud transients add impact to the music without making it seem much louder. Worst case, these brief transients can be 20+ dB above the average level requiring around 100 times more power than the average level. Compare the Flim and the BB’s – New America track in Audacity to theLada Gaga – Just Dance track (the two screen shots above). Even during the “loud” part of New America the average level (light blue portion) is still relatively low.

DESIRED MAXIMUM VOLUME: So how loud is “loud enough”? To establish the upper end of subjective tastes, studies show the threshold of pain starts around 120 dB SPL. It seems reasonable to use that as the absolute upper limit. 120 dB SPL is also the level at which even short term exposure can cause permanent hearing impairment. Studies have shown even sustained average levels above 85 dB SPL can cause hearing damage. For more on these thresholds see Sound Pressure Levels. The research indicates the average maximum level should be at least 85 dB, and with classical music, that puts the peak level up to 30 dB higher at a worst case 115 dB). For more typical music peak levels of 110 dB SPL are more reasonable.

• Highly Compressed Pop (see pic above right): –6 dB to –9 dB
• Well Recorded Pop: –9 dB to –12 dB
• Well Recorded Acoustic/Jazz: –12 dB to –18 dB
• Wide Dynamic Range Classical: –18 dB to –30 db

If somebody REALLY wants to drive LCD2 to 120db (and we use the less optimistic figure, which is Audeze's figure), it might actually be possible to hit the limits of the O2 because it takes so much more power to get 120db than 115db. I strongly recommend against it for the sake of preventing hearing loss. But ok, you'll need 512mw if you want 120db and I'm unsure if O2 can provide that at that impedance. That's still... half of 1w and that's after you decide to listen at 120db peaks. I don't see how we're ever going to get 1w requirement from LCD2 here even at the most extreme situations.

 

Do you blast special orchestrated tracks that have very low average volumes coupled with sudden blasts of loudness?  :wacko: I mean, this is getting a little ridiculous. Barnacules owns the HE500 which has less efficiency than LCD2, and he blaaaassteedd the thing with O2 and was fine.

 

At least with the ODA, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that it can power all of them at whatever ridiculous what-ifs you want to throw at it, bring on the 30db dr, the 120db max, it can do it all... and effortlessly.

 

 

Where are you getting 93db/Vrms? The specs say 93db/mw, these are two different things. Current LCD2 is 70ohm impedance with 93 sensitivity, which is 104.5 db/vrms. The LCD2 is more sensitive than HD800 but less efficient. If I assume an LCD2 has only 50 ohm impedance that's even easier, sensitivity shoots up to 106db/Vrms.

 

You say that amps distort more closer to full output. Can you show me the data backing that up? 

Also, if you could link me the old specs of LCD2 that would be cool. I want to get to the bottom of this. Headfi obviously wants everything to be super hard to drive, HA wants O2 to be able to power the sun. I want to do a little bit of critical thinking here and ask some questions, some prodding, some math, to figure it all out. 

 

I'll post all of the calculations and what-ifs later.

[ShearMe]

Ummm to say Tyll thrives on pseudosciences (and have the words hold some weight), actually needs some debunking

 

I didn't say he thrives on Pseudoscience, but I definitely don't think he tries explain things as well as he could, and ends up taking an aural shortcut that makes it sound like he's talking in Pseudoscience.

 

Maybe read it again:

 

* underlined: handle more power. My logic: low frequencies comes from a diaphragm that vibrate slower in frequency but longer in time (even in fractions of seconds, still accountable by the scale) than highs. The Lambda (wave longitude) of lows is longer than highs, more surface area below the sine wave, ~more power needed to maintain the sine wave from distorting. Handling big power surges (as in highs) shouldn't be a problem, but handling longer, stable power (as in lows) would make the resistance (voice coil in dynamic drivers, or snake-like metal parts in planar diaphragm) heats up. Planar's diaphragm should be able to vibrate relatively much longer than dynamic drivers due to it's ability to handle more heat, thus making it handle more power to maintain the lows' sine waves from distorting.

 

I don't care what your "logic" is bro, I care about actual physics. This explanation sure sounds nice, but can you show me with equations? I sure haven't seen anything of the kind.

 

It's an 'and', 2 different things. Not causality (bigger size enables it to vibrate more accurately), like you said in 'assuming that more area means it vibrates more accurately.'

 

'I can cook, and I can play music' is different than 'I can cook means I can play music'

 

Say 'language difference' all you like, but I'm sure you get my point....

Context is everything. 

 

"I have a space shuttle and I've been to the moon."

 

While it is not reasonable to assume the ability to play music is derived from the ability to cook, it is reasonable to assume you need a space shuttle to get to the moon.

[creatip123]

 

I don't care what your "logic" is bro, I care about actual physics. This explanation sure sounds nice, but can you show me with equations? I sure haven't seen anything of the kind.

 

 

I can do a step better. How about a real-time testing/measurement?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly5xQKEVDvI

 

Using a regular DMM, not some lab grade super-precision stuffs, so I compared between 2 quite different tones, 20Hz and 1kHz sine tone. Video is uncut, to avoid foul play assumption.

 

*and my channel only serves as a hosting for random videos. No casts, no revenues whatsoever, so it shouldn't against the coc.

 

 

 

Context is everything.

"I have a space shuttle and I've been to the moon."

While it is not reasonable to assume the ability to play music is derived from the ability to cook, it is reasonable to assume you need a space shuttle to get to the moon.

 

Ummm....it's actually also not reasonable to assume a bigger thing automatically moves faster than a smaller thing, though, unless either there's more force moving it, or different (lighter) material/mass, or both. 

[Beeker]

On 9/22/2014 at 6:18 AM, creatip123 said:

 

Judging how well a device can drive a headphone (or speakers, or whatever) only by the number of the impedance (how many ohms) is a big misconception, which seems to have taken the consumers by a storm.

 

I'll give 2 examples:

 

1. The Hifiman HE-6 is regarded as one of the hardest to drive headphone in the market. It's far harder to drive the HE-6 properly than say, Beyer's 250ohms headphones, or Sennheiser's 300ohms headphones. So what's the impedance rating of the HE-6? 50 ohms. Just google it to know if it's true or not.

 

2. Lepai 2020A+ is a speaker amp. Its rating is 4 to 8 ohms. So it shouldn't be able to push, say, a 100 ohms headphone, right? Truth is, there's a big chance that headphone will fry when plugged to that amp. Even if it doesn't fry the headphone, the volume knob must be kept at very very low settings (under 25%).

This is my first post and I would like to point out to people who read this post and creatip123 for posting it that a speaker amplifier that is 4-8 ohms is only 4-8 ohms when it is pushing speakers. It has absolutely nothing to do with pushing headphones that are plugged into that "speaker amplifier".  When you plug in headphones to that speaker amplifier you bypass the part that powers the speakers and instead the headphones are powered by a headphone amplifier that is built into the speaker amplifier. So I have no idea what kind of headphone amp that you have in that speaker amplifier but by no means is it only 4-8 ohms. If that speaker amplifier was to somehow power any pair of headphones by some mistake (because they are simply made to not ever have a chance at powering headphones) those headphones would quite literally blow up. So when we are talking headphones and somehow a speaker amplifier comes up people must know that a speaker amplifier and a headphone amplifier are two completely different animals.

 

Beeker. 

[nicobombai]

WTF.. Thread from 2014.........................

 

 

 

 

[Beeker]

Yah I know that it is a thread from 2014 but people still read them. I don't want someone getting the wrong advice from someone. The reason I posted was because I was like WTF. Anyways I just got those same Beyer headphones that you have. How do you like them? I also got the  Micca OriGen+ High Resolution USB DAC and Preamplifier - 24-Bit/192kHz PCM and 64x DSD.  I also have a pretty sweet pc that I built too with three samsung 24 inch monitors. I love haveing the extra monitors....I could never go back to just a single

 

[Beeker]

What is with the all seeing eye are you a freemason