Why is emulation so hard?

[FratStar]

Hi,

 

Hey guys I have a burning question that I feel some of you can answer for me. I need to explain to someone why emulation is difficult especially when it comes to the current consoles emulated the PS3 and the X1 respectively as well as emulating it all on PC.

I have a very elementary understanding and I'm seeking more insight before I have to explain to him why it isn't easy. He thinks that people can just port a game no issues and doesn't think that the fact that the 360 was Power PC based and the X1 being x86 based is a non issue. etc. I don't want to spread any misinformation and I'm not posting for the sake of an argument I just want to provide facts. I also have an interest in this stuff as well.

 

Thanks in advanced to anyone who can provide me with some insight.

[79wjd]

Different architectures

[Vitalius]

What djdowsk97 said. 

It's like being a native English speaker, then learning Chinese, and trying to translate Chinese on-the-fly in your head as you read a book in Chinese. Meaning you actually think in Chinese. Rather than in English.

[Enderman]

It would take a huge amount of work to emulate console processing on PC since its so different (aka shit)

And that would cause a ton of problems when running games which would basically make them unplayable.

Simple consoles such as nintendo or DS can sometimes be emulated but not the big consoles.

[Vitalius]

It would take a huge amount of work to emulate console processing on PC since its so different (aka shit)

And that would cause a ton of problems when running games which would basically make them unplayable.

Simple consoles such as nintendo or DS can sometimes be emulated but not the big consoles.

wat

I mean, you are partially right, but that last sentence is so weird, I don't even...

List of consoles that have good emulators:

Wii

Gamecube

N64

PS2

PS1

And any older ones.

List of handhelds that have good emulators:

DS

Gameboy (all)

And any older ones.

I mean, I consider PS2 big, but yeah.

[Enderman]

wat

I mean, you are partially right, but that last sentence is so weird, I don't even...

List of consoles that have good emulators:

Wii

Gamecube

N64

PS2

PS1

And any older ones.

List of handhelds that have good emulators:

DS

Gameboy (all)

And any older ones.

I mean, I consider PS2 big, but yeah.

Yeah I just don't know many consoles games...

But the PS2 is really old, and I kinda doubt they had emulators for it so soon after it was released. It probably took a couple years to code that.

[Solkia]

I remember hearing something that emulating the system's architecture takes anywhere from 10x to 100x the processing power than the console it's emulating. I remember seeming that somewhere on GBA temp or something. 

[Misanthrope]

1) Processing power: See the translation on the fly example, you have to have a virtual processor and then translate all instructions to x86 and hope the procesor is fast enough. It literally needs to be orders of magnitude faster for the latency to be eliminated with raw calculation power. Something like a 3.58mhz processor like the SNES is no issue since you literally have procesors way beyond a thousand times faster, a cell processor with multiple core? not doable yet. 

 

2) Console companies don't actually give you the specifications, people have to figure them out through a difficult and painful process called reverse engineering. It really takes A LOT of time to do it that way.

[Vitalius]

Yeah I just don't know many consoles games...

But the PS2 is really old, and I kinda doubt they had emulators for it so soon after it was released. It probably took a couple years to code that.

I can understand that. 

The last game for the PS2 was released in November of 2013. It's not that old. I mean it's old, but still.

[Enderman]

I can understand that. 

The last game for the PS2 was released in November of 2013. It's not that old.

But when was the console released?

....

[Vitalius]

But when was the console released?

....

2000. It's a teenager. Hue^3

[Victorious Secret]

The PS3 will never have emulation, Cell is such a wonderful pile of WTF that even its creators said WTF and left it to die. 

 

The 360? Maybe? I mean, there isn't even a Xbox emulator and that was closer to being a PC than the 360, to say nothing of the PS4 and XBO.

 

People think that just because they use the same hardware, it should be easy. Couldn't be further from the truth. 

The raw power required to handle the XBO or PS4 emulation exceeds what there is today on a consumer level, thats assuming anyone cares enough to develop an emulator that doesn't suck, translates seamlessly on the fly and in general emulates properly. 

[Misanthrope]

The PS2 processor is under 300mhz. That's literally 200 times less than even a cheap i3 dual core, nay 400 times slower if you consider hyper threading. I think you should realize just how much has technology advanced in the last 15 years.

[StingBull]

Emulation doesn't improve as the technology gets older. There are some very old computers out there that nothing can emulate properly.

 

Emulation's difficulty depends on how different the platform that is being emulated and the emulator platform, true. But in the end it all comes down to the fact that emulators are non-profit unofficial fan project things. Creators don't have the necessary documentation. They also have to avoid using copyrighted methods. (Emulators don't usually come with a BIOS for this reason)

 

That's why their development takes a long time and they never work perfectly. If Sony were to make an official PS2 emulator for the PC, they could get it to work perfectly.

[Vitalius]

The PS2 processor is under 300mhz. That's literally 200 times less than even a cheap i3 dual core, nay 400 times slower if you consider hyper threading. I think you should realize just how much has technology advanced in the last 15 years.

 

If it requires an order of magnitude greater processor speed (roughly), then I don't get it. I can run 3 PS2 emulators simultaneously and get 60FPS in them at double resolution with AA and a few other things. 

Then again, I have a 3570k at 3.4GHz and a 290X. Not sure how the GPU matters, but eh. We'll see how far I can push it. 

Emulation doesn't improve as the technology gets older. There are some very old computers out there that nothing can emulate properly.

 

Emulation's difficulty depends on how different the platform that is being emulated and the emulator platform, true. But in the end it all comes down to the fact that emulators are non-profit unofficial fan project things. Creators don't have the necessary documentation. They also have to avoid using copyrighted methods. (Emulators don't usually come with a BIOS for this reason)

 

That's why their development takes a long time and they never work perfectly. If Sony were to make an official PS2 emulator for the PC, they could get it to work perfectly.

This.

The interesting thing about emulating console games is that each console game is unique. Specifically, you know how the consoles get those epic optimizations that make them be able to do more with less regarding graphics and hardware power respectively? 

Well, those break emulators because it means the developers did something that none of the other developers had to do to make their game work well and each of them did it differently. So each game has to be considered individually for an emulator and each optimization has to be accounted for for the game to work as if it's on the original hardware. 

This can come down to extra code doing unique things, or even be as important as the latency from one process to another being identical to the original machine. It just all depends. 

That's another reason why emulation takes so long for so little benefit. 

[RainColt]

Yeah I just don't know many consoles games...

But the PS2 is really old, and I kinda doubt they had emulators for it so soon after it was released. It probably took a couple years to code that.

The Wii also has an emulator it's relatively new.

The PS3 will never have emulation, Cell is such a wonderful pile of WTF that even its creators said WTF and left it to die. 

 

The 360? Maybe? I mean, there isn't even a Xbox emulator and that was closer to being a PC than the 360, to say nothing of the PS4 and XBO.

 

People think that just because they use the same hardware, it should be easy. Couldn't be further from the truth. 

The raw power required to handle the XBO or PS4 emulation exceeds what there is today on a consumer level, thats assuming anyone cares enough to develop an emulator that doesn't suck, translates seamlessly on the fly and in general emulates properly. 

OH good luck the the cell broadband engine although isn't that how sony plans on doing the stream PS3 games to Sony consoles or are they just going to make a massive server using the Cell processor?

And the 360 emulator is making some steps forward https://github.com/benvanik/xenia but it's still a long way off.

 

And shouldn't it be at the very least easier than making an emulator for the 360? And the work that goes into one emulator fior either the PS4 or xbo1 must be useable in creating the other.

[Enderman]

The Wii also has an emulator it's relatively new.

OH good luck the the cell broadband engine although isn't that how sony plans on doing the stream PS3 games to Sony consoles or are they just going to make a massive server using the Cell processor?

And the 360 emulator is making some steps forward https://github.com/benvanik/xenia but it's still a long way off.

 

And shouldn't it be at the very least easier than making an emulator for the 360? And the work that goes into one emulator fior either the PS4 or xbo1 must be useable in creating the other.

Creating an emulator for these consoles is harder then creating a whole new game...

[Solkia]

It makes me sad to think PS3 will never have an emulator.

[FratStar]

Well guys I appreciate it, some of this I already knew, but you put it better than I could have. In the end sadly tried to not listen to what I said to him and still believes that somehow 360 emulation will come to the XB1 because Microsoft "vowed" to do it. I expect to be the same as the 360 some game compatibility here and there but not an entire library.

 

It makes me sad to think PS3 will never have an emulator.

Also yeah I'm pretty bummed out about that too. There were a lot of good games on that system.