100% true or 100% BS

[Guest]

 

has AMD been sh*tting on PC all this time? Has the PS4 been enjoying HSA all along?

[SAV1OUR]

huh? dumb question what is HSA?

[ohJey]

http://wccftech.com/amd-huma-playstation-4-graphics-boost-xbox-analysis-huma-architecture/

[ohJey]

huh? dumb question what is HSA?

http://developer.amd.com/resources/heterogeneous-computing/what-is-heterogeneous-system-architecture-hsa/

[Nickolas47]

70-30

[KemoKa]

Perfectly possible, but would be absolutely pointless. Anyway, the two chips were released with mere months between each other, so I don't see what the fuss is all about. The PS4 has horribly mismatched hardware to begin with. Also, how is HSA's adoption into coding going? because I bet it's not going well.

[deathjester]

hsa.png

 

has AMD been sh*tting on PC all this time? Has the PS4 been enjoying HSA all along?

 

Seeing that the PS4's graphics look exactly like what they are (a 7790 GPU in TFLOPS). I am going to say no. The PS4/Xbox One are same thing, except for better memory on the PS4 and a GCN AMD GPU that 29 percent better (this is after the Kinect was dumped from the SDK). 

 

It may help the potato CPU out a bunch, but it is a 1.6ghz mobile CPU. The thing sucks. In addition ICE dev team for PS4 has the same memory tiling as DX 11.2 does, and that the Xbox One does.

 

All PC needs is a low level API. Our desktop chips make these two console CPU's look silly. We could have had much better performance in Watch Dogs under DirectX 11.2 but Ubisoft didn't use it because people hate Windows 8 and MS keeps it off Win 7.

 

Our API is holding us back, not HSA. They have been struggling to even get Planetside 2 on the PS4. Even without a low level API a I5 K and a GPU kill these consoles. AMD CPU's really benefit from a low level API. HSA CPU's really benefit. I3's really benefit.

 

DX 12 will look like this. We are already light years past a console and when we get a low level API on all games we will be even further ahead. This is with a GPU 3-4 times a PS4/Xbox One.

 

http://pclab.pl/art55953-3.html

 

The worse the CPU is currently, the more of a difference you will see under DX 12. 8320/50 will come closer to an I5. I7 is overkill, I3 can run a single big card, 6300fx and the APU CPU's should be fine.

 

If you want to blame anyone? Blame MS. They ported Forza to DX 12 in a month on like a 3 man team on an Nvidia card, worked on the low level API for 6 years (it is prob way better than Mantle at this point on stability),and AMD was able to get Mantle working while bankrupt, yet we aren't getting a low level API til Holiday 2015. This is so they can sell their dumb console. DX 12 is going to destroy initial value of consoles. Add to that MS is withholding DX 11.2 from Win 7 and holding back the progression they made on their API, since no one is using their new OS, and game makers will make the game for the majority. AMD? Hell they pushed MS to announce DX 12.  I freaking LOVE AMD atm and I haven't bought a AMD CPU since Athlon. 

[IPCharger]

This may very well be true in the sense that the PS4 only has 8 GB of unified GDDR5 RAM, instead of having separate GPU and CPU RAM. So having that unified memory could have some of the benefits of HSA, but I've read using GDDR5 for CPU also has some drawbacks (GDDR5 is faster than DDR3 but it has more latency), this is why GDDR5 is only used for GPUs on PC.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Yes, because AMD APUs already have it.(XboxOne also supports it)
They have hUMA that wasn't a secret that's why it has 8GB GDRR5.

 

[GeathX]

Seeing that the PS4's graphics look exactly like what they are (a 7790 GPU in TFLOPS). I am going to say no. The PS4/Xbox One are same thing, except for better memory on the PS4 and a GCN AMD GPU that 29 percent better (this is after the Kinect was dumped from the SDK). 

 

It may help the potato CPU out a bunch, but it is a 1.6ghz mobile CPU. The thing sucks. In addition ICE dev team for PS4 has the same memory tiling as DX 11.2 does, and that the Xbox One does.

 

All PC needs is a low level API. Our desktop chips make these two console CPU's look silly. We could have had much better performance in Watch Dogs under DirectX 11.2 but Ubisoft didn't use it because people hate Windows 8 and MS keeps it off Win 7.

 

Our API is holding us back, not HSA. They have been struggling to even get Planetside 2 on the PS4. Even without a low level API a I5 K and a GPU kill these consoles. AMD CPU's really benefit from a low level API. HSA CPU's really benefit. I3's really benefit.

 

DX 12 will look like this. We are already light years past a console and when we get a low level API on all games we will be even further ahead. This is with a GPU 3-4 times a PS4/Xbox One.

 

http://pclab.pl/art55953-3.html

 

The worse the CPU is currently, the more of a difference you will see under DX 12. 8320/50 will come closer to an I5. I7 is overkill, I3 can run a single big card, 6300fx and the APU CPU's should be fine.

 

If you want to blame anyone? Blame MS. They ported Forza to DX 12 in a month on like a 3 man team on an Nvidia card, worked on the low level API for 6 years (it is prob way better than Mantle at this point on stability),and AMD was able to get Mantle working while bankrupt, yet we aren't getting a low level API til Holiday 2015. This is so they can sell their dumb console. DX 12 is going to destroy initial value of consoles. Add to that MS is withholding DX 11.2 from Win 7 and holding back the progression they made on their API, since no one is using their new OS, and game makers will make the game for the majority. AMD? Hell they pushed MS to announce DX 12.  I freaking LOVE AMD atm and I haven't bought a AMD CPU since Athlon. 

 

 

Come on man, if your going to talk specs with the consoles, at least make sure your're correct. The PS4 has 1.8 TFLOPS, which makes a modified 7850/70 a much better analogy for what the PS4 can do. The X1 again a mix of a 7770/90 with around 1.3 TFLOPS. Also that percentage gain that X1 is getting from dropping mandatory Kinect support is not increasing the power, its merely freeing the GPU, so the original power difference still stands. I will go into fine grain hardware spec comparisons if you really want me to...

 

You are right though, the CPUs are some what under powered, we'll just have to see what creative ways developers offload what they can to the GPU. 

Also are correct that DX12 will go a long way to actually fully using a PC's CPU, though we are 18 months if not more from DX12 being released and then we'll have to wait for games to fully use it. Some how doubt its going to be as easy as flicking a switch over to DX12.

 

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?s=5a710dd21f001aa32bd186976cb5871d&t=69260

 

That link goes into what is actually holding back the PC from performing as it should and why consoles can get so much performance out of the hardware.

To the OP though...Why the anger at AMD for having HSA in PS4/X1? Should be looking at it as AMD testing things out on the consoles and refining what they learn into PC APUs. 

[deathjester]

Come on man, if your going to talk specs with the consoles, at least make sure your're correct. The PS4 has 1.8 TFLOPS, which makes a modified 7850/70 a much better analogy for what the PS4 can do. The X1 again a mix of a 7770/90 with around 1.3 TFLOPS. Also that percentage gain that X1 is getting from dropping mandatory Kinect support is not increasing the power, its merely freeing the GPU, so the original power difference still stands. I will go into fine grain hardware spec comparisons if you really want me to...

 

You are right though, the CPUs are some what under powered, we'll just have to see what creative ways developers offload what they can to the GPU. 

Also are correct that DX12 will go a long way to actually fully using a PC's CPU, though we are 18 months if not more from DX12 being released and then we'll have to wait for games to fully use it. Some how doubt its going to be as easy as flicking a switch over to DX12.

 

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?s=5a710dd21f001aa32bd186976cb5871d&t=69260

 

That link goes into what is actually holding back the PC from performing as it should and why consoles can get so much performance out of the hardware.

To the OP though...Why the anger at AMD for having HSA in PS4/X1? Should be looking at it as AMD testing things out on the consoles and refining what they learn into PC APUs. 

Draw calls and API go hand in hand. Like I said though on a I5 K you are stupidly faster anyways. These consoles do 30 fps on a crappy GPU in games we pull 60 plus on much higher video cards. 

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis/2

 

^ Hardware. See chart.

 

Click specs tab below to see tflops of 7700 series. Both GPU's are underclocked in the systems (ps4 is 200mhz under reference). The Xbox One is nowhere near a 7790. The PS4 is. 29 percent is taking the 1.84 from 1.31. I am very well aware the GPU is not increasing in the Xbox One. Currently? They can use 1.2x. After the SDK change they are 29 percent behind. I guess you could round it to a third.

 

http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/7000/7700

 

R9 280's have been 180-200 bucks the last week or so on PC Part picker. They are in the mid 3 TFLOPS. These consoles are pretty much a joke. A 7870 is at like 2.56. The entire article about HSA seems like an advertising piece for AMD's HSA line to be honest. The PS4 can manage to not bottleneck (much) a slightly faster than reference 7790. Whoop de do. An I3 can do that with a R9 290 under Mantle. 

 

The Xbox One GPU is almost as good as a GTX 260 216c from 2008...Well done Microsoft.

http://www.hwcompare.com/11957/geforce-gtx-260-core-216-vs-radeon-hd-7770/

[GeathX]

Draw calls and API go hand in hand. Like I said though on a I5 K you are stupidly faster anyways. These consoles do 30 fps on a crappy GPU in games we pull 60 plus on much higher video cards. 

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/the-xbox-one-mini-review-hardware-analysis/2

 

^ Hardware. See chart.

 

Click specs tab below to see tflops of 7700 series. Both GPU's are underclocked in the systems (ps4 is 200mhz under reference). The Xbox One is nowhere near a 7790. The PS4 is. 29 percent is taking the 1.84 from 1.31. I am very well aware the GPU is not increasing in the Xbox One. Currently? They can use 1.2x. After the SDK change they are 29 percent behind. I guess you could round it to a third.

 

http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/7000/7700

 

R9 280's have been 180-200 bucks the last week or so on PC Part picker. They are in the mid 3 TFLOPS. These consoles are pretty much a joke. A 7870 is at like 2.56. The entire article about HSA seems like an advertising piece for AMD's HSA line to be honest. The PS4 can manage to not bottleneck (much) a slightly faster than reference 7790. Whoop de do. An I3 can do that with a R9 290 under Mantle. 

 

The Xbox One GPU is almost as good as a GTX 260 216c from 2008...Well done Microsoft.

http://www.hwcompare.com/11957/geforce-gtx-260-core-216-vs-radeon-hd-7770/

 

I'm going with wikipedia and its table comparisons for  GPUs in case you were wondering...

 

 

It is much harder to find a clear comparison for the X1 GPU as it is such a custom job. In GFLOPS its slightly faster than a 7770, but like you said fails to a GTX 260 in other areas like memory bandwidth because it uses DDR3, but then has the ESRAM to off set that, but then again that just makes it harder to draw a good comparison.

 

PS4 much easier. If I'm reading you right your saying it is a 7870 Ghz edition under clocked by 200mhz...with 2 of its CUs disabled for the 18 the PS4 has. That would make it close to dead inline to the gflops and core config. But then it does have memory bandwidth much closer to the faster 7870 XT and then some finer points that it shares some tech with the R9 290x...

http://www.redgamingtech.com/playstation-4-gpu-next-gen-amd-radeon-volcanic-island-gpu-compute-similarities/

 

Now not saying that is going to make the PS4 GPU more powerful, more that it can be used in a more flexible way than a 7850/70 would be.

 

 

And yes totally, the R9 280s have been rather cheap for a while now, but you have to take into consideration how many of those are sold compared to how many PS4s have sold. A game developer can not make a game that runs on only 280x or 770s or 7850s for that matter because then a lot of people with weaker systems would not be able to run their games.

[deathjester]

I'm going with wikipedia and its table comparisons for  GPUs in case you were wondering...

 

 

It is much harder to find a clear comparison for the X1 GPU as it is such a custom job. In GFLOPS its slightly faster than a 7770, but like you said fails to a GTX 260 in other areas like memory bandwidth because it uses DDR3, but then has the ESRAM to off set that, but then again that just makes it harder to draw a good comparison.

 

PS4 much easier. If I'm reading you right your saying it is a 7870 Ghz edition under clocked by 200mhz...with 2 of its CUs disabled for the 18 the PS4 has. That would make it close to dead inline to the gflops and core config. But then it does have memory bandwidth much closer to the faster 7870 XT and then some finer points that it shares some tech with the R9 290x...

http://www.redgamingtech.com/playstation-4-gpu-next-gen-amd-radeon-volcanic-island-gpu-compute-similarities/

 

Now not saying that is going to make the PS4 GPU more powerful, more that it can be used in a more flexible way than a 7850/70 would be.

 

 

And yes totally, the R9 280s have been rather cheap for a while now, but you have to take into consideration how many of those are sold compared to how many PS4s have sold. A game developer can not make a game that runs on only 280x or 770s or 7850s for that matter because then a lot of people with weaker systems would not be able to run their games.

 

It is SEMI-custom. MS obfuscates this to sell imaginary tales of them making it more powerful one day. Both GPU's are semi custom. They are the same thing except one is 29 percent faster.  

 

http://sites.amd.com/us/microsoft/Pages/default.aspx

 

See under Xbox One. SEMI. PS4 is same. The ESRAM makes the Xbox One different but then again a GPU 29 percent worse doesn't need the same bandwidth. ESRAM plus DDR3 to offset not having GDDR5..

 

If you want to see PS4 visuals? Stick a aftermarket 7790 in a PC. It is nowhere close to a 7870. A 7870 is not doing 900p in the same games, with the same AA/AF. Take a title like BF4, Thief, whatever and the 7870 is blowing the PS4 away. 

 

Could the bandwidth help with later PC games on the PS4 over the Xbox One? Sure. It isn't going to make it put out more TFLOPS than it currently can though. That is concrete. Is all both consoles will ever push. The PS4 will always be 29 percent ahead in either AA, resolution, AF, lighting, shadows whatever. Something has to give.

 

If you put Titanfall on the PS4? I would bet on it having less frame drops (Titanfall on Xbox One is horrible with them). Bandwidth could help there, over imaginary cloud servers that were really just dedicated servers.

[GeathX]

It is SEMI-custom. MS obfuscates this to sell imaginary tales of them making it more powerful one day. Both GPU's are semi custom. They are the same thing except one is 29 percent faster.  

 

http://sites.amd.com/us/microsoft/Pages/default.aspx

 

See under Xbox One. SEMI. PS4 is same. The ESRAM makes the Xbox One different but then again a GPU 29 percent worse doesn't need the same bandwidth. ESRAM plus DDR3 to offset not having GDDR5..

 

If you want to see PS4 visuals? Stick a aftermarket 7790 in a PC. It is nowhere close to a 7870. A 7870 is not doing 900p in the same games, with the same AA/AF. Take a title like BF4, Thief, whatever and the 7870 is blowing the PS4 away. 

 

Could the bandwidth help with later PC games on the PS4 over the Xbox One? Sure. It isn't going to make it put out more TFLOPS than it currently can though. That is concrete. Is all both consoles will ever push. The PS4 will always be 29 percent ahead in either AA, resolution, AF, lighting, shadows whatever. Something has to give.

 

If you put Titanfall on the PS4? I would bet on it having less frame drops (Titanfall on Xbox One is horrible with them). Bandwidth could help there, over imaginary cloud servers that were really just dedicated servers.

 

Oh yes, I'm not saying customized for powerful on the X1 , Just more in the sense that it is using ESRAM, and a few little internal extras to help with that. Yes basic GPU tech they are using GCN hardware, just different amounts of it with some subtle variations like i said with the Compute control and small extra features.

 

Ok, so if we want to see the possible visuals of a consoles, we should just use the same model hardware its based on? In this case should we also do the same for the PS3/360?

 

If we do that with the previous gen, using your method to see the power of the hardware, we would be putting a GTX 7800 from 2005 for the ps3 and a Radeon X800 for the 360, with 512MB ram and a dual core CPU from 05/06 and expecting it to run watch dogs, battlefield 3 or 4. And I'm not saying run slowly, they are just not supported out right. Can you actually see those games running on hardware from 2005/2006? Because that is what you are alluding to with saying the new consoles are only as good as how a 7770/7850 performs now.

 

If what you are saying is true saying that all we see now with the consoles is all we are going to get, you have clearly ignored the gains made from PS3 launch titles to what we have now. The Uncharted series leaped forward immensely between games despite having the same hardware ending with The Last of Us being visually fantastic. The Battlefield series also from bad company all the way up to BF4, massive gains on the same hardware. COD, Mass Effect, GTA etc..have all improved over the course of the generation, despite using old hardware. You can bet the same is going to happen with the PS4 and X1.

 

 

Also you can keep saying the PS4 is nothing more than a 7790, but that does not make you correct. Look at the actual specs, do the research into hardware, then criticise based on that information.

[harrynowl]

Only useful when they share the same pool of memory.