Your experience with EVs and are you ready to do the jump.

[Lurking]

10 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

ff and sold to the uk (as they fix em) your battery pack will most likely be replace in 5 years time witch cost $$$ about the same as the car... 

With Tesla having 10+ years of track record there is absolutely no basis to your 5 year claim. The warranty for all EV is longer than that. And many Tesla had hundreds of thousands of miles as Uber cars with (battery wearing) frequent fast charging.

 

There was a Tesla with 900,000 miles and that had 1 or 2 batteries replaced and 2-3 drive units. If done well, EV had a better chance to live long than modern ICE cars.

 

There also is no way a new battery cost more than the car. The very few batteries that had to be replaced AFTER warranty mileage were in the $10-$20K range. And that often was at mileages at which an UCE car needed new tranny or engine. Look at all these new tiny turbo-charged engines with CVT that all need turbot or tranny work way before 100K Miles. I have more confidence in a decent EV battery. I'm talking about good EV, I realize there will be bad brands as well. 

Edited May 19 by Lurking

[Donut417]

12 minutes ago, Lurking said:

For an EV you at least you could have Level 2 charging everywhere.

Maybe. But at what cost? Its not just the charger you have to buy. Some are wired directly in to the electrical system and while some exist that connect to a 220 outlet, not everyone has a extra 220 outlet to use. So then you have to add in the expense of getting an electrician to install one. AND need to ensure you have a big enough electrical service at your home to use one. Because when my folks bought their house in the 80s, it had like 60 amp service. They upgraded to 100 amp server later on, but not everyone did and not everyone can afford that.

[wanderingfool2]

27 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

My honest opinion is that all manufacturers should ditch batteries and start perfecting the techniques for storing hydrogen in solid state. Someone earlier mentioned BETAMAX tapes and i have the feeling this what the battery EVs would turn out to be in the end or the Laser Disk of the automotive world.     

Hydrogen doesn't make economical sense [or practical sense].

 

A lot of the hydrogen generated comes from dirty sources.  The green sources cost a whole lot more, and when you start factoring in transportation costs, conversion inefficiencies and bleed off you end up with a "green" solution that costs more to operate than and so much added complexity to the system.

 

The only benefit of hydrogen would be that you could fill it up easily; but that is mostly negated for people who could already top up their EV's at home and don't require commutes that depletes their battery in a day [which is the majority of people].

 

Hydrogen only really makes sense for long haul systems...and even that it's questionable when everything is factored in.

 

As an example, the current clean methods of generating hydrogen lose about 20 - 30% just generating it.  You lose 10% storing it, and 30% converting it back to electricity.  So you in the best case scenario with our current technology it's about 50%.  So imagine the cost of what you are currently paying to charge the EV and at least double it [and that doesn't even include the profit margin each step would need to take].

 

38 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

Well you see, here is where the other big problem lays - price. EVs with proper high range battery pack, cost as much or even more than a brand new premium segment cars. The Ioniq 5 with the 77.4kWh battery is the exact same price as a brand new Audi A6 Avant S-Line. These are 2 completely different tiers of cars. The Ioniq can't even get close to the level of comfort which the A6 provides and is still less practical. In order for these EVs to make sense, their prices have to be cut basically to 1/3rd of their current ones, because the compromises you still have to make are way too much compared to the well established ICE cars.

I'm not denying that EV's can cost a lot, but purely basing it off of the lowest range vehicle without initially bringing up the cost per range aspect is wrong.

 

It's also not exactly comparable for ICE vs EV's, as you have different pricing aspects involved as well.  Overall maintenance, and cost of running EV's on average will save you money instead.  Like I said earlier though, there are valid points for people not to get it like not being able to charge at home; but again complaining about range in isolation of mentioning the higher cost for added range isn't exactly right either as the rational isn't "EV's don't have enough range" but rather "EV's are too expensive for the range I need".

[Lurking]

7 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Maybe. But at what cost? Its not just the charger you have to buy. Some are wired directly in to the electrical system and while some exist that connect to a 220 outlet, not everyone has a extra 220 outlet to use. So then you have to add in the expense of getting an electrician to install one. AND need to ensure you have a big enough electrical service at your home to use one. Because when my folks bought their house in the 80s, it had like 60 amp service. They upgraded to 100 amp server later on, but not everyone did and not everyone can afford that.

Depending on your electrical service that may cost $800 unless you already have a panel in your garage. Sone manufacturers also offer free charger install ation. The real problem are renters with non-willing landlords. But it isn't as big a problem as building up a hydrogen infrastructure. 

 

And you don't need to install a charger. The charger is in the car. All it is a fancy plug with some safety features. All the expensive smartness is in the car and proprietary to the battery 

[Donut417]

4 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Depending on your electrical service that may cost $800 unless you already have a panel in your garage.

We dont park cars in our garage. Our garage only have maybe 60 Amps and its only 120v service ran to it. A lt of people in the areas use their garage for storage or in our case my dad uses it as a workshop / storage. Plus not everyone has a garage. 

[Qrdello]

As it is now - I wouldn't bother with EVs if you're living in the outskirts or non-industrial areas. Also, if you're travelling a lot with your whole family that's also quite risky. 

Ideal deal right now is to have a modern diesel (2015+) and a hybrid or EV, and that is if you're living in the city centre or close to fast charging stations.

Just on the basis of my sister's experience. They've got a tesla and a bmw3 diesel. When travelling longer distances in tesla they have to plan way ahead and look up if the charging stations aren't broken or occupied because, with two small kids, they waste extra 2-3 hours for a 5 hour trip - which is insane tbh. Maybe if you're single, or without children that's doable - but even still, wasting time somewhere in the middle of nowhere just because your ev's charging - that's like a major flaw. Sure, my experiences are based on polish roads and charging stations - and that's not saying much to more developed countries, but since the Germans are ditching EVs more than ever, and they're considered like the most pragmatic europeans, this has to mean something.

As things are now owning an EV is expensive and time consuming, it's also contradictory to owning a car in general - car was supposed to give you freedom, and EVs chain you to low speeds and constant worry if I you'll be able to make to the next charging station  

[Lurking]

5 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

We dont park cars in our garage. Our garage only have maybe 60 Amps and its only 120v service ran to it. A lt of people in the areas use their garage for storage or in our case my dad uses it as a workshop / storage. Plus not everyone has a garage. 

You can install them outside on your house if that is where you park. For home owners not a real problem. Yes, you need to run 240V from whatever panel. So cost differs, but again, many car manufacturers offer free installation.

 

Renters are the ones having a hard time here.

 

Ultimately every driver has a different use. Some need a truck, a van, some a diesel to tow, or a small car. EV can cover many of the needs. Just because they don't cover all needs doesn't mean they are bad. A big diesel pickup truck sucks for 99% of drivers and they choose a different vehicle. But that doesn't mean we need to talk about why big diesel trucks are unsuitable. 

[thrasher_565]

16 minutes ago, Lurking said:

You can install them outside on your house if that is where you park. For home owners not a real problem. Yes, you need to run 240V from whatever panel. So cost differs, but again, many car manufacturers offer free installation.

 

Renters are the ones having a hard time here.

ya fuXk renters... (home ower that rents ) oh im fuXed

 

chargers are not stander what if some one moves out (because people do that from time to time) do you rip out the cahger and put another in? how green is that? what do you do in apartments? run an extension out the window?

 

only thing i see happening is a starting over, or the rich will drive the poor will not.

and yes you cant speed in an ev as it will slow you down in zones or will might not yet but its coming (unless you play a speeding fee

 

also a thing to point out is the uk also has VARY good TRANSIT for poor people...

they also allow you to add a electric kit in to any car another thing to point out.

Edited May 19 by thrasher_565

[Qrdello]

20 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Ultimately every driver has a different use. Some need a truck, a van, some a diesel to tow, or a small car. EV can cover many of the needs. Just because they don't cover all needs doesn't mean they are bad. A big diesel pickup truck sucks for 99% of drivers and they choose a different vehicle. But that doesn't mean we need to talk about why big diesel trucks are unsuitable. 

Of course, I have nothing against EVs as another engine propelling a car as a thing we own, but I have EVERYTHING against EUs policy of imposing the need urge and necessity to buy one after 2035 new by completely banning new petrol-based engines. It's moronic and I can, with all certainty, say that it's also anti-humane. It deprives people, who don't want to are not rich enough, of the means to travel, of freedom - in some of it's instances.

[wanderingfool2]

47 minutes ago, Lurking said:

There was a Tesla with 900,000 miles and that had 1 or 2 batteries replaced and 2-3 drive units. If done well, EV had a better chance to live long than modern ICE cars.

It's really unfortunate the business that documented this went out of business.  They had spreadsheets provided to the public in regards to overall cost of ownership, and it was heavily in favor of EV's [when you subtracted out incidents like them accidently backing into things or needing to replace the seats because of spilt milk]

 

37 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

We dont park cars in our garage. Our garage only have maybe 60 Amps ran to it. A lt of people in the areas use their garage for storage or in our case my dad uses it as a workshop / storage. Plus not everyone has a garage. 

I do get your issue, and from what I remember from previous ones I think I agreed that your situation was one that doesn't work with EV's.  Although, just noting if you have 60 amp service, the typical household won't be consuming the full load for the vast majority of the time...where it boils down to, don't run your drier at the same time you are charging and generally you should be fine [I know someone who actually attached theirs to the same circuit because they didn't want to hire an electrician to run a new wire].

 

Anyways, I do agree, EV's aren't for everyone at the moment.

 

57 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

as far as i no there's no big trucks are turned in to electric (ya i no the big mining dump trucks are hybrids) are being made

Well depends what you really mean big trucks; you have the Tesla Semi which can do 500 miles [but it was also designed under the premise that during the legal breaks they can charge].

 

You also have a few mining operations who have fully electric massive dump trucks.  The key is that their mine is at a higher elevation than their processing plant.  So the trucks drive up with an empty load using battery power, then "recharge" themselves because they now weigh 5x - 10x more so they actually end up with full battery by the time they hit the processing plant...so they operate with never needing to charge.

 

It's an unique scenario, but the above actually made it worthwhile for the company to convert their fleet to that [as they no longer have diesel costs for that portion].

 

57 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

as it sits from what i gather watching yt videos is this. charge stations are broken most of the time tesla being the best. too few stations and taking more time to charge. will cost alot as us and Canada is spread out more un like in the uk. payment options is all over the place and needs an app. subscriptions to heated seats pay to win. the cost for repairs are nuts and most case its written off and sold to the uk (as they fix em) your battery pack will most likely be replace in 5 years time witch cost $$$ about the same as the car... other things like build quality like not being able to open the back doors on power outage. more tire ware i guess is another problem. no custom cars basically the car guy is dead. for trucks pepsi is the only one with them an all will be rented out. ya there the edison thing but i doubt that will go any were. for self driving dont no all i no is farm equipment basic drives itself only if the planters were reliable... at some point this will also push electricity prices higher

You really are spit balling what amounts to a whole lot of conspiracies.

 

First, the easy to address:

Replacing battery 5 years - Tesla and most others have like 8 - 10 year warranty; Battery degradation does happen, but you are talking about maybe 20% loss in like 15 years of use.  The cost of battery replacement actually isn't grossly outrageous when you consider the maintenance costs overall are cheaper.  Just like how after 15 years of use, my car needs more and more expensive types of repairs.

 

Heated seats - I've argued this before, but the installation of such and putting it behind an one time purchase or optional subscription works out as a benefit for consumers.  The reduced SKU units means lower expenses to build where the people who do pay for it end up making up the difference of the added cost of putting them in all vehicles.  [If you live somewhere where you only would need heated seats once every few years as well, the subscription model actually ends up being cheaper]

 

Self driving farm equipment - That happens on non-electric farm equipment as well.  John Deer has been seeing to that, it has nothing to do with EV's.

 

Cost of repairs - That's a mixed bag, yes it does cost more to repair...but that's not just an EV problem it's a modern vehicle problem.  Actually the write off thing as well, it's also because the vehicles are retaining more of their value and can be more value for their parts.  e.g. During the peak, if you owned a 2 year old Tesla and wanted to resell it you could get nearly the price of purchasing a brand new Tesla.  So the issue becomes even in a broken state the gap before the vehicle becomes a write off is a whole lot less. 

 

The hypothetical $45k Used Tesla, $43k Broken Tesla.  You get into a crash, and the bumper is broken and some sensors need replacing.  The cost is $3k to repair so you would write it off.

 

Canada/US spread out - Yes it's true, and there aren't necessarily tons of charging stations all along the way...but that ignores that the majority of people will not drive that far on most occasions.  Like from work to back most people an EV would work [if they could charge from home].  In that case instead of filling up 24 times a year, maybe they go on 1 or 2 road trips and just need to supercharge 4 - 5 times.  You can get 20 -  80% in 15 minutes.  So overall you end up spending less time "fueling" up over the lifetime of the vehicle...and on a road trip where you plan a lunch/pee break it consumers even "less time".

 

Build quality - Tesla being the biggest example, but generally it's just the fit and finish like panel gaps that are the issue.  Yes you can lose access to opening if your 12V dies, but you can actually jump start it...and that's not just an EV thing as well.  If my 12V dies on my current vehicle I don't have a way to open the door [except the override method which I'm sure most people don't know how to do].

 

Electric grid - As they push more towards EV to grid it actually will help more as you can start stabilizing the grid more [at the moment when demand is high they need to spin up additional plants and sometimes it means operating plants at sub-optimal efficiency to be ready for a giant wave of spikes...car to grid should prevent that so you can now just run plants closer to optimal].  Also the whole AI stuff is the one that will be the issue [all those cards NVIDIA is selling that guzzles electricity will make it look miniscule].

[QuantumSingularity]

You see i get the hype 5 years ago when there were huge price cuts and government subsidies and the EVs were free of road tax, but now when all of that is almost completely gone or on its' way out, i don't get the appeal. Running costs are basically the same. The Ioniq 5 says it has 3600km remaining till service. I asked what that serviced consisted of and they told me "It depends". What doesn't depend though is the price of that service - €400-€500 depending on the dealer i take it to and it must be done every 10 000km, for what i just assume is a basic diagnostics and some fluids change. I don't consider this cheaper running costs. The whole point of the EV was to reduce running costs, but if the charging is the same as driving on diesel and service costs are the same as a normal ICE car, then what remains is the reduced practicality. 

[Qrdello]

1 minute ago, QuantumSingularity said:

You see i get the hype 5 years ago when there were huge price cuts and government subsidies and the EVs were free of road tax, but now when all of that is almost completely gone or on its' way out, i don't get the appeal. Running costs are basically the same. The Ioniq 5 says it has 3600km remaining till service. I asked what that serviced consisted of and they told me "It depends". What doesn't depend though is the price of that service - €400-€500 depending on the dealer i take it to and it must be done every 10 000km, for what i just assume is a basic diagnostics and some fluids change. I don't consider this cheaper running costs. The whole point of the EV was to reduce running costs, but if the charging is the same as driving on diesel and service costs are the same as a normal ICE car, then what remains is the reduced practicality. 

This, and the fact that there's a certain degree of self-inflaming battery units (like in jags two years back) which, if this kind of vehicle would be parking in an underground parking lot, can cause serious problems to all the inhabitants of the given building. These cars just aren't safe enough yet, and on top of that sometimes even a small car bump can cause it to be totaled because most dealers just don't want to fix EVs.

There was a video viraling some 2-3 weeks ago of a EV merc being mildly hit in a road accident and it caught fire in the middle of the street. Sure, petrols can also inflame but I'd say that EVs are more prone to that  

[QuantumSingularity]

Oh yeah, certainly the safety aspect is way worse. Every single time i get to my work car and i hear the fan running to cool down the battery i climb in very very carefully, because i've seen too many videos online of EVs spontaneously combust while just sitting at the parking lot. Thermal runaway is no joke. But back to the price aspect. Most people have a certain budget to buy a car. They start looking for the best car that can fit their budget and their needs. If a small EV is the same price as what is considered an E-segment car and it has the same running costs and both fit the needs and the budget, of course i would chose the better car, which also gives me more practicality and freedom and which retains its value better. It's basically a no-brainer... 

[Motifator]

15 minutes ago, Qrdello said:

This, and the fact that there's a certain degree of self-inflaming battery units (like in jags two years back) which, if this kind of vehicle would be parking in an underground parking lot, can cause serious problems to all the inhabitants of the given building. These cars just aren't safe enough yet, and on top of that sometimes even a small car bump can cause it to be totaled because most dealers just don't want to fix EVs.

There was a video viraling some 2-3 weeks ago of a EV merc being mildly hit in a road accident and it caught fire in the middle of the street. Sure, petrols can also inflame but I'd say that EVs are more prone to that  

A lot of the EVs, at least on the premium end, actually shut down power in case of big accidents so the car doesn't end up burning itself. This has been a feature for couple years now.

If anything, there have been lots of cases with gas cars burning themselves on fire in past. Such as the old Fords and the problem with their ignition system. I wouldn't say EVs are always safer just due to the fact that I realize how cheaply most of them are made, but they're not necessarily any more dangerous than an equivalent ICE vehicle. ICE can also poison you without noticing if you leave the ignition on inside a closed place, obviously, which is another sucky side of it.

Though I'd say by far the most dangerous vehicle reigns to be... *cough* OP's LPG converted S6. That thing is a ticking bomb if things go wrong. They don't allow LPG cars to be inside mall garages and such, but a lot of them still go in. Liquid propane tanks explode as if the whole vehicle is full of C4.

[Qrdello]

5 minutes ago, Motifator said:

A lot of the EVs, at least on the premium end, actually shut down power in case of big accidents so the car doesn't end up burning itself. This has been a feature for couple years now.

If anything, there have been lots of cases with gas cars burning themselves on fire in past. Such as the old Fords and the problem with their ignition system. I wouldn't say EVs are always safer just due to the fact that I realize how cheaply most of them are made, but they're not necessarily any more dangerous than an equivalent ICE vehicle. ICE can also poison you without noticing if you leave the ignition on inside a closed place, obviously, which is another sucky side of it.

Though I'd say by far the most dangerous vehicle reigns to be... *cough* OP's LPG converted S6. That thing is a ticking bomb if things go wrong. They don't allow LPG cars to be inside mall garages and such, but a lot of them still go in. Liquid propane tanks explode as if the whole vehicle is full of C4.

And on the very same basis I would ban EVs from malls and underground lots, until at least the tech would disallow any sort of power shortage from causing combustion. Putting oneself on fire is one thing, but putting out that fire in an enclosed space and the sh*t that's being raidated into the enclosed space is another thing. Let's not forget that underneath any EV there's a half a ton worth of battery and whatever that's made of.  

[Motifator]

I don't think an EV that just parks and does nothing carries much of a danger around, as there's no power involved to trickle it. 

But yeah, lithium ion is indeed dangerous and needs to go already. Not just for safety reasons but also for other reasons regarding being inferior to solid state in most other means.

[Lurking]

1 hour ago, Qrdello said:

Of course, I have nothing against EVs as another engine propelling a car as a thing we own, but I have EVERYTHING against EUs policy of imposing the need urge and necessity to buy one after 2035 new by completely banning new petrol-based engines. It's moronic and I can, with all certainty, say that it's also anti-humane. It deprives people, who don't want to are not rich enough, of the means to travel, of freedom - in some of it's instances.

First of all, this isn't a law yet. And if that becomes law you could buy a new ICE car in 2034 and drive it till 2045. Judging on the big progress of EV in the last 5 years, they probably will have figured out the technology by 2045.

 

At least in the EU they give you a 10 year warning. That way manufacturers and infrastructure have a chance to adapt. Here in the US they cancel the old EV credit and introduce another with weird restrictions from one week to another without warning. And once manufacturers changed suppliers based on that stupid credit, they don't know if next January that all gets reverted or changed again. 

 

I have my opinions on geopolitics, tax laws and so on. But ultimately no one in power cares about that. Next time I buy a car I have to decide which car is the best for me in the system I'm in. Regardless of if I think the rules make sense. 

 

At least you guys in the EU get normal cars as EV. Here we only get big SUV and trucks as EV. Not sure how that serves the masses.

 

I recommend to watch the Munro Live YT Channel to stay on top of car technology. They showed a hybrid logging truck and the idea is to use the higher elevation trees to charge the battery on the way down to the sawmill. You have to think a bit outside the box. 

[thrasher_565]

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Well depends what you really mean big trucks; you have the Tesla Semi which can do 500 miles [but it was also designed under the premise that during the legal breaks they can charge].

 

You also have a few mining operations who have fully electric massive dump trucks.  The key is that their mine is at a higher elevation than their processing plant.  So the trucks drive up with an empty load using battery power, then "recharge" themselves because they now weigh 5x - 10x more so they actually end up with full battery by the time they hit the processing plant...so they operate with never needing to charge.

 

It's an unique scenario, but the above actually made it worthwhile for the company to convert their fleet to that [as they no longer have diesel costs for that portion].

 

You really are spit balling what amounts to a whole lot of conspiracies.

 

First, the easy to address:

Replacing battery 5 years - Tesla and most others have like 8 - 10 year warranty; Battery degradation does happen, but you are talking about maybe 20% loss in like 15 years of use.  The cost of battery replacement actually isn't grossly outrageous when you consider the maintenance costs overall are cheaper.  Just like how after 15 years of use, my car needs more and more expensive types of repairs.

 

Heated seats - I've argued this before, but the installation of such and putting it behind an one time purchase or optional subscription works out as a benefit for consumers.  The reduced SKU units means lower expenses to build where the people who do pay for it end up making up the difference of the added cost of putting them in all vehicles.  [If you live somewhere where you only would need heated seats once every few years as well, the subscription model actually ends up being cheaper]

 

Self driving farm equipment - That happens on non-electric farm equipment as well.  John Deer has been seeing to that, it has nothing to do with EV's.

 

Cost of repairs - That's a mixed bag, yes it does cost more to repair...but that's not just an EV problem it's a modern vehicle problem.  Actually the write off thing as well, it's also because the vehicles are retaining more of their value and can be more value for their parts.  e.g. During the peak, if you owned a 2 year old Tesla and wanted to resell it you could get nearly the price of purchasing a brand new Tesla.  So the issue becomes even in a broken state the gap before the vehicle becomes a write off is a whole lot less. 

 

The hypothetical $45k Used Tesla, $43k Broken Tesla.  You get into a crash, and the bumper is broken and some sensors need replacing.  The cost is $3k to repair so you would write it off.

 

Canada/US spread out - Yes it's true, and there aren't necessarily tons of charging stations all along the way...but that ignores that the majority of people will not drive that far on most occasions.  Like from work to back most people an EV would work [if they could charge from home].  In that case instead of filling up 24 times a year, maybe they go on 1 or 2 road trips and just need to supercharge 4 - 5 times.  You can get 20 -  80% in 15 minutes.  So overall you end up spending less time "fueling" up over the lifetime of the vehicle...and on a road trip where you plan a lunch/pee break it consumers even "less time".

 

Build quality - Tesla being the biggest example, but generally it's just the fit and finish like panel gaps that are the issue.  Yes you can lose access to opening if your 12V dies, but you can actually jump start it...and that's not just an EV thing as well.  If my 12V dies on my current vehicle I don't have a way to open the door [except the override method which I'm sure most people don't know how to do].

 

Electric grid - As they push more towards EV to grid it actually will help more as you can start stabilizing the grid more [at the moment when demand is high they need to spin up additional plants and sometimes it means operating plants at sub-optimal efficiency to be ready for a giant wave of spikes...car to grid should prevent that so you can now just run plants closer to optimal].  Also the whole AI stuff is the one that will be the issue [all those cards NVIDIA is selling that guzzles electricity will make it look miniscule].

ya i said mining trucks are electric hybrids and have been for years but thats the only big equipment that i no of that eletric hybrid.

 

the cyber tuck is not piratical its for youtubers and rich people. that it its a concept truck.

 

ya modern day cars are honorably when it come to maintenance but thats by design and there many people that agree and still run there ship box car...

 

ya but if you cant fix the car you buy another chep car you cant just buy a cheap ev...

 

ya i had gotten a voodoo 5500 off ebay like 15 years ago for $60 (normally $150) and today its worth $1000+ but how was i supose to no that thats inflation. how was i spose to no that bit cone was worth so much...

 

ya gpu mining uses alot of power a thing i was pointed out that pcs are not using less power... ya maybe compared to sli days but we are pushing 1000w these days...

 

just means electricity will keep costing more, ev insurance cost more, the car cost more, maintenance cost more, its less safe, less reliable, consumes more of your time and cost more to charge. you will replace the car more offend. all for what faster execration?

 

not saying i hate ev there just alot of problems that need dressing.

 

if you can afford one good on you no one cares about thows people.

[thrasher_565]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE

Tesla on fire HAD to smash window to get out...

 

Edited May 19 by thrasher_565

[Lurking]

46 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

Oh yeah, certainly the safety aspect is way worse. Every single time i get to my work car and i hear the fan running to cool down the battery i climb in very very carefully, because i've seen too many videos online of EVs spontaneously combust while just sitting at the parking lot. Thermal runaway is no joke. But back to the price aspect. Most people have a certain budget to buy a car. They start looking for the best car that can fit their budget and their needs. If a small EV is the same price as what is considered an E-segment car and it has the same running costs and both fit the needs and the budget, of course i would chose the better car, which also gives me more practicality and freedom and which retains its value better. It's basically a no-brainer... 

If you are afraid of a fan running, you probably shouldn't participate in high speed traffic with vehicles containing gasoline 

[wanderingfool2]

31 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

just means electricity will keep costing more, ev insurance cost more, the car cost more, maintenance cost more, its less safe, less reliable, consumes more of your time and cost more to charge. you will replace the car more offend. all for what faster execration?

 

not saying i hate ev there just alot of problems that need dressing.

 

if you can afford one good on you no one cares about thows people.

Nice word vomit mixing facts with bogus inaccurate fables.

 

Higher grid demand will not mean electricity will keep costing more, and again when car to grid makes it's debut in larger numbers it will reduce the overall cost of electricity.

 

Maintenance DOES NOT cost more.  The costs are just shifted; and you lost the reasonable grounds when you made the foolish comment that it only lasts 5 years.

EV's, no more oil changes, reduced brake wear, other engine stuff.  At best, the overall cost is neutral in terms of maintenance when you consider tires.

 

It really doesn't consume more time, in lets say my driving scenario.  The lowest Tesla is 395km (round down to 300km), now I could get maybe 800km out of a tank of a similar sized ICE IF I am lucky.  Filling up with gas will take at minimum 3 minutes [when you consider pulling in, payment processing, and ignoring waiting in line and the fact that you might have to detour your route to get to a gas station].  Charging a Tesla literally takes an extra 10-20 seconds per times you charge.  Now if you decide to stick between 50 - 80% charge; you will need to plug it in ~10 times vs 1 ICE fill up.  Even at 20 seconds you are talking about 3m20s...at 10 seconds to plug in it's 1m40s.  So no, it doesn't necessarily consume more time...and that ignores people like me, where if I need to fuel up it's a 10-15 minute detour to my usual route to gas up.

 

"Less safe" - That's just a stupid argument; Tesla has consistently been rated in the top safety ratings.

 

  

18 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQxm6n7SdvE

Tesla on fire HAD to smash window to get out...

 

So what, the Tesla was on fire...the guy was too stupid to pull the HANDLE that exists in all Teslas to open the door in this kind of situation

 

 

1 hour ago, Qrdello said:

hese cars just aren't safe enough yet, and on top of that sometimes even a small car bump can cause it to be totaled because most dealers just don't want to fix EVs.

They are safe, well at least Tesla's...Bolt's were just special in the sense they used pouch cells and had a manufacturing defect.

 

One of the reasons why EV's are being totaled is because the value of them being totaled is more.  Yes dealers don't really want to fix them, but that's also because the training for the mechanics are just in their infancy...just like how hybrids started out or even ones with more complex EPA stuff like sensors for ICE.

 

46 minutes ago, Qrdello said:

And on the very same basis I would ban EVs from malls and underground lots, until at least the tech would disallow any sort of power shortage from causing combustion. Putting oneself on fire is one thing, but putting out that fire in an enclosed space and the sh*t that's being raidated into the enclosed space is another thing. Let's not forget that underneath any EV there's a half a ton worth of battery and whatever that's made of.  

That in general though is just fear mongering.  Yes batteries are harder to put out but realistically the only reason you hear about battery fires is because the news likes to hype up the fears.  Like the whole "Person trapped in Tesla while it was on fire and had to smash window to escape" [news ignores the fact the person didn't realize that Tesla's have an incase of emergency handle for the door].

 

ICE vehicles catch fire way more often than EV's and what's worse is that they actually start massive fires as well [e.g. parked on grass and the grass burns causing a forest fire].

[thrasher_565]

7 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Nice word vomit mixing facts with bogus inaccurate fables.

 

Higher grid demand will not mean electricity will keep costing more, and again when car to grid makes it's debut in larger numbers it will reduce the overall cost of electricity.

 

Maintenance DOES NOT cost more.  The costs are just shifted; and you lost the reasonable grounds when you made the foolish comment that it only lasts 5 years.

EV's, no more oil changes, reduced brake wear, other engine stuff.  At best, the overall cost is neutral in terms of maintenance when you consider tires.

 

It really doesn't consume more time, in lets say my driving scenario.  The lowest Tesla is 395km (round down to 300km), now I could get maybe 800km out of a tank of a similar sized ICE IF I am lucky.  Filling up with gas will take at minimum 3 minutes [when you consider pulling in, payment processing, and ignoring waiting in line and the fact that you might have to detour your route to get to a gas station].  Charging a Tesla literally takes an extra 10-20 seconds per times you charge.  Now if you decide to stick between 50 - 80% charge; you will need to plug it in ~10 times vs 1 ICE fill up.  Even at 20 seconds you are talking about 3m20s...at 10 seconds to plug in it's 1m40s.  So no, it doesn't necessarily consume more time...and that ignores people like me, where if I need to fuel up it's a 10-15 minute detour to my usual route to gas up.

 

"Less safe" - That's just a stupid argument; Tesla has consistently been rated in the top safety ratings.

 

They are safe, well at least Tesla's...Bolt's were just special in the sense they used pouch cells and had a manufacturing defect.

 

One of the reasons why EV's are being totaled is because the value of them being totaled is more.  Yes dealers don't really want to fix them, but that's also because the training for the mechanics are just in their infancy...just like how hybrids started out or even ones with more complex EPA stuff like sensors for ICE.

 

That in general though is just fear mongering.  Yes batteries are harder to put out but realistically the only reason you hear about battery fires is because the news likes to hype up the fears.  Like the whole "Person trapped in Tesla while it was on fire and had to smash window to escape" [news ignores the fact the person didn't realize that Tesla's have an incase of emergency handle for the door].

 

ICE vehicles catch fire way more often than EV's and what's worse is that they actually start massive fires as well [e.g. parked on grass and the grass burns causing a forest fire].

if you pull in to a gas station like you said its say 3minuts to fill. 100% of the time

when you pull in to a change station is a 50/50 chance of the 3 minutes and you have to add in the time to find 10 change stations... ya more stations would help same with reliability would also help but thats not that case.

 

are you stopping and pulling over looking up these stations or are you driving and texting?

with a good enough app i guess it could plan stations for you but i doubt there good..

[Qrdello]

Quote

It really doesn't consume more time, in lets say my driving scenario.  The lowest Tesla is 395km (round down to 300km), now I could get maybe 800km out of a tank of a similar sized ICE IF I am lucky.  Filling up with gas will take at minimum 3 minutes [when you consider pulling in, payment processing, and ignoring waiting in line and the fact that you might have to detour your route to get to a gas station].  Charging a Tesla literally takes an extra 10-20 seconds per times you charge.  Now if you decide to stick between 50 - 80% charge; you will need to plug it in ~10 times vs 1 ICE fill up.  Even at 20 seconds you are talking about 3m20s...at 10 seconds to plug in it's 1m40s.  So no, it doesn't necessarily consume more time...and that ignores people like me, where if I need to fuel up it's a 10-15 minute detour to my usual route to gas up

It does, when you don't really get to use a proper charger. Like I said earlier, I live in Poland. You can find maybe 5 Tesla charging stations that support that super fast charging. Again, from my sister's experience - her husband goes for coffee, or two sometimes, while their's model 3 (2023) is charging up, and they never drop below 20% charge, so I hear. 

If the charger is the slow, or semi-slow one the process takes up to 40-50minutes and that's not taking into account the wait, because there are more people with other EVs also wanting to charge.

In general, I do get your points but the way things are now I'm sceptical. And in this very case I don't want to be an early adopter of the technology that hinders my life despite being advertised as something just the opposite. And yes, even after 10-something years of first mass produced EVs I still consider the technology to be in it's infancy - just how long did it take for diesels to become popular and relatively idiot-proof?

Having said that, I do appreciate the novieties and caviats of new tech-stuff, I'm an ethusiast after all. I just, much like with Galaxy S8 back in the day, wouldn't risk my family being hurt whilst using that tech. 

As of now, I would go for a hybrid have those been a bit cheaper and coming from companies such as Renault (I drive a 4 year old Talisman with dCi engine) - unfortunately what they have are small-ass 3 cylinder PB engines with mild hybrid tech pushing a 1,5t car which probably won't last another 100k km  

Quote

First of all, this isn't a law yet. And if that becomes law you could buy a new ICE car in 2034 and drive it till 2045. Judging on the big progress of EV in the last 5 years, they probably will have figured out the technology by 2045.

I can guarantee you, that by 2034 the motor companies in EU will drop any real petrol based engines and sell only cheap unworthy product. Remember that with those laws come emission limitations and EURO markings. It's extremely expensive to lower your PB emissions and companies like Mercedes or VW have invested so much into EV tech recently, that they won't be willing to create EURO7xx something-friendly engines so that a niche client could go and buy it  that's the reality unfortunately.

[Lurking]

16 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

if you pull in to a gas station like you said its say 3minuts to fill. 100% of the time

when you pull in to a change station is a 50/50 chance of the 3 minutes and you have to add in the time to find 10 change stations... ya more stations would help same with reliability would also help but thats not that case.

 

are you stopping and pulling over looking up these stations or are you driving and texting?

with a good enough app i guess it could plan stations for you but i doubt there good..

Tesla, and many other EV, have navigation that accounts for charging and plots the route to be fastest inc. charging.

 

And Tesla stations are reliable and fast. It is all the other clown stations with the CCS plug that don't work most the time. So the technology works very well, there just also are bad companies. Again, don't buy an EV with outdated technology.

 

And if you do long distance travel ALL THE TIME, a hybrid probably is a better car today. But for everyday use and if you charge at home, an EV saves time since you never need to go to a gas station. 

 

Again,  you have to figure out which car works for YOU. No need to s$$t on cars that work perfectly well for other people 

 

Where I live most larger grocery stores, parking ramps and many other places have public Level 2 chargers through our local utility. Some even have Tesla fast chargers. Assuming someone going to a grocery store didn't come from 200 miles away, you easily can get by topping off every time you are at a store for 30 minutes. I think destination charging is a good approach since you go to that place to hang out anyway and the charging speed matters less. You really only need fast charging at Interstates. Like they could be at trailheads or other places people go and spend time. And Level 2 won't overload local grids as much. 

 

And fast charging isn't good for the battery. So you should limit that to long trips. Again, someone traveling 500 miles Interstates every week probably is better served with a Prius. Especially since fast chargers are pricy. But for people not traveling that far weekly, an EV can work. It all depends.

[thrasher_565]

11 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Tesla, and many other EV, have navigation that accounts for charging and plots the route to be fastest inc. charging.

 

And Tesla stations are reliable and fast. It is all the other clown stations with the CCS plug that don't work most the time. So the technology works very well, there just also are bad companies. Again, don't buy an EV with outdated technology.

 

And if you do long distance travel ALL THE TIME, a hybrid probably is a better car today. But for everyday use and if you charge at home, an EV saves time so since you never need to go to a gas station. 

 

Again,  you have to figure out which car works for YOU. No need to s$$t on cars that work perfectly well for other people 

well tesla charging stations are the best there still not perfect like your calming they are. sounds like your cherry picking the "best" scenario 50% to 80% in 3 minuts might work one time but i dout it will work 10... just saying thats why you average things out and it takes more time in average vs gas.

 

ya nothing agents charging at home its grate for that.

 

on average ev cost more simply put.

 

how much dose it cost for the "newest" tech? seems like there a cost to the abilay to charge fast? pay to win

Edited May 19 by thrasher_565