Piracy.

[Askew]

Without an option to pirate, your natural interest and curiosity would more than likely lead you to buying it, after all, you only visit a torrent site for stuff you are interested in when it suits you.

 

Piracy is exactly the same financially for a producer as the sale of used media, yet pirates get all the flack, why is that?

 

It exists because it's cheaper, that's why people buy used, that's the only reason unless it's not available anymore, which in the case of digital content is not the case.

 

Piracy is the next step, you could think "I could by used, and pay money to GAME and not help the developer, or I could download for free from TPB and not help the developer either..."

[Recon-UK]

I do not believe that is really the case in a lot of situations. Take Photoshop as an example where most people that have pirated it would never buy it because of its price and what people tend to use it for. It is not logical to assume people that pirate Photoshop for home use would ever pay hundreds of dollars to edit a photo that they didn't even need edited in the first place.

People needing such software are a tiny percentage in comparison to entertainment media though.

[Recon-UK]

Piracy is exactly the same financially for a producer as the sale of used media, yet pirates get all the flack, why is that?

A used copy was originally bought, the money has gone to the creator already.

[Vitalius]

They are only taking physical money if they would have definitely paid for the game if piracy were not an option, if they would not have bought it anyway, it's cost nothing, it's just replications of sofware by third parties.

This. 

I am of the opinion that piracy is not theft because theft implies that someone lost something. That's intrinsically what makes theft wrong. That I took something I didn't earn from someone else who earned it. You can't do that with piracy unless you decide to delete their copy of the material (which you can't do most of the time). 

If you could literally print new bread using almost no resources and feed the world, would you do it? Effectively, that's what piracy is with media. Don't get me wrong, people should get paid for their work, but at the same time, if they are trying to screw everyone else over to get paid, I'd just as soon not pay them. 

 

Without an option to pirate, your natural interest and curiosity would more than likely lead you to buying it, after all, you only visit a torrent site for stuff you are interested in when it suits you.

Actually... no.

I often visit torrent sites just to see what's popular, that way I can find more content I like. Then I usually see if it's reasonably prices and available to me. If so, I save up and buy it. If not, I don't. 

[Recon-UK]

This. 

I am of the opinion that piracy is not theft because theft implies that someone lost something. That's intrinsically what makes theft wrong. That I took something I didn't earn from someone else who earned it. You can't do that with piracy unless you decide to delete their copy of the material (which you can't do most of the time). 

If you could literally print new bread using almost no resources and feed the world, would you do it? Effectively, that's what piracy is with media. Don't get me wrong, people should get paid for their work, but at the same time, if they are trying to screw everyone else over to get paid, I'd just as soon not pay them. 

 

Actually... no.

I often visit torrent sites just to see what's popular, that way I can find more content I like. Then I usually see if it's reasonably prices and available to me. If so, I save up and buy it. If not, I don't. 

You are part of the 1%.

[Vitalius]

A used copy was originally bought, the money has gone to the creator already.

Someone had to buy the content at one point to copy it so they could share it with pirates. Just saying. It's sort of the same thing.

[BrandedUpontheGrave]

Your opinions are also a human distinction.

 

Experience has shown us that kids are worth more to society than adults because they'll live longer and their reach is undetermined, companies would rather hire someone young, nobody wants to grow old because youth and young age is invaluable to humanity.

 

An old man has experienced that stage of life, where as a child has not yet had that gift, terminating them both at the same time is very skewed in fairness.

Ok I know this is a page back and a lot may have happened after this comment but I'd just like to point out that: A the worth of a child to society is ZILCH without an accompanying adult to ensure their survival and B if it comes down to a man a woman and a child and only two can be saved then it's more likely that saving the two adults will be more beneficial to the society (whatever may be left of it in this scenario) than the child, in fact they may very well be able to simply produce a new child, whereas the child's continuation and use is far less certain.

[Askew]

A used copy was originally bought, the money has gone to the creator already.

 

Ok, so if it's then sold on an unidentified number of times afterward to more and more customers who would have bought a new one (and supported the dev) if that used copy had not been available, what say you then?

 

What if the copy that was then ripped and uploaded to bittorrent was originally legitimately purchased?

 

It's the same again.

[Askew]

Someone had to buy the content at one point to copy it so they could share it with pirates. Just saying. It's sort of the same thing.

 

^^

[Recon-UK]

Someone had to buy the content at one point to copy it so they could share it with pirates. Just saying. It's sort of the same thing.

It really is not, a game or DVD physical copy stays in someones possession for a long time, a digital copy on a torrent site can be downloaded by millions.

[Recon-UK]

Ok, so if it's then sold on an unidentified number of times afterward to more and more customers who would have bought a new one (and supported the dev) if that used copy had not been available, what say you then?

 

What if the copy that was then ripped and uploaded to bittorrent was originally legitimately purchased?

 

It's the same again.

 

It really is not, a game or DVD physical copy stays in someones possession for a long time, a digital copy on a torrent site can be downloaded by millions.

[Askew]

Ok I know this is a page back and a lot may have happened after this comment but I'd just like to point out that: A the worth of a child to society is ZILCH without an accompanying adult to ensure their survival and B if it comes down to a man a woman and a child and only two can be saved then it's more likely that saving the two adults will be more beneficial to the society (whatever may be left of it in this scenario) than the child, in fact they may very well be able to simply produce a new child, whereas the child's continuation and use is far less certain.

 

I agree, but that's a whole new hypothetical scenario, the whole basis for the involvement of children in this discussion was that of analogy.

[Askew]

It really is not, a game or DVD physical copy stays in someones possession for a long time, a digital copy on a torrent site can be downloaded by millions.

 

Millions of used games are sold.

[Recon-UK]

Millions of used games are sold.

Millions are kept in possession, the number of downloaded torrents are usually ten times the amount.

[Fred Castellum]

Actually... no.

I often visit torrent sites just to see what's popular, that way I can find more content I like. Then I usually see if it's reasonably prices and available to me. If so, I save up and buy it. If not, I don't. 

Yup! 

 

I agree, but that's a whole new hypothetical scenario, the whole basis for the involvement of children in this discussion was that of analogy.

And again yup!

[Vitalius]

Well, I have a complicated view on piracy to begin with because I have rules about if I should or not. 

If it's easily available and reasonably priced, I buy it. This is shown best in my Steam library due to steam sales. In fact, I refuse to pirate video games unless they are old enough to be rare or similar (i.e. Before PS2 times) because of this. 

If it's easily available but not reasonably priced, I pirate it. This is shown in my movie & TV Show collection. Those two industries are built in such a way as to gouge every dollar out of the customer, or prevent foreign people's from seeing it for years, then having to pay even higher prices for it. I'm not doing that. This is especially true with anime. I'm just not doing that. 

In fact, back in the day, the reason you paid for a cable subscription was so you didn't have to watch commercials. Now you get those regardless and you pay for channels you don't want or watch. Just watch the Cable TV episode of South Park. That describes the situation perfectly. And the box sets for seasons of a show tend to be just as expensive as movies. Although you get more content, it's still quite excessive imo.

And don't even get me started on the movie industry's ticket prices for a 1-3 hour show, the food prices (albeit unrelated only add salt to the wound), and then upping that to like $20-$30 for a Blu-Ray of the thing so you "get to keep it". Whip-de-doo.

If it's hard to get but reasonably priced, I'll usually be patient and find a way to buy it. This is rare, but I've done it before and it's sort of scattered through all the things I own. 

If it's both hard to get and unreasonably priced, I usually won't bother unless I get lucky and find a torrent for it. Hard to get includes torrents btw. Not just "can I buy it online or at a shop near me?".

I know you may be right, and I might be the 1%, but unless you have a source for that, it's just hearsay. 

[Recon-UK]

Well, I have a complicated view on piracy to begin with because I have rules about if I should or not. 

If it's easily available and reasonably priced, I buy it. This is shown best in my Steam library due to steam sales. In fact, I refuse to pirate video games unless they are old enough to be rare or similar (i.e. Before PS2 times) because of this. 

If it's easily available but not reasonably priced, I pirate it. This is shown in my movie & TV Show collection. Those two industries are built in such a way as to gouge every dollar out of the customer, or prevent foreign people's from seeing it for years, then having to pay even higher prices for it. I'm not doing that. This is especially true with anime. I'm just not doing that. 

If it's hard to get but reasonably priced, I'll usually be patient and find a way to buy it. This is rare, but I've done it before and it's sort of scattered through all the things I own. 

If it's both hard to get and unreasonably priced, I usually won't bother unless I get lucky and find a torrent for it. Hard to get includes torrents btw. Not just "can I buy it online or at a shop near me?".

I know you may be right, and I might be the 1%, but unless you have a source for that, it's just hearsay. 

Steam literally invalidates PC gamers on piracy, the amount of sales is insane, including other places.

 

Movies are different, but they are not that expensive on DVD, Blu ray is a rip off, is why i usually buy stuff like that on sales.

 

I bought Bioshock Infinite for 6 pounds not long back, love the game.

[Askew]

the number of downloaded torrents are usually ten times the amount.

 

That statement requires evidence.

[BrandedUpontheGrave]

I agree, but that's a whole new hypothetical scenario, the whole basis for the involvement of children in this discussion was that of analogy.

Fair enough.

 

Personally I find piracy ethically disagreeable, even if I'm not actually depriving the maker of revenue I'm taking advantage of content I've not paid for and the fact that I wouldn't have paid for it anyway doesn't excuse that behavior, in fact I would argue it makes it worse after all if I have every intention of buying the product then I'll have paid for my admission. For a comparison imagine I find a way to sneak into a theater and enjoy the midnight (or whenever) viewing free of charge? Say I didn't even intend to pay anyway and am only watching because I managed to get in free... Now just because I haven't deprived the theater of anything physically or taken any revenue (seeing as how I would never have paid for the experience) does this justify my actions? And in fact on that note, if I stole a physical piece of candy am I really depriving them of profit or just POTENTIALLY doing so? After all perhaps I would never have purchased the candy to begin with.

 

Not an ideal scenario I presented at the end as the chocolate bar (or what have you) is a loss do to it's physical nature, so not having the opportunity to sell it is itself a loss, not quite so much with digital content.

[Recon-UK]

That statement requires evidence.

Want to see my OG XBOX collection?

 

I am 1 person of course, but logically speaking here, a physical copy can only go so far.

[Askew]

Want to see my OG XBOX collection?

 

I am 1 person of course, but logically speaking here, a physical copy can only go so far.

 

Yeah, it can, but the torrent has spread from one copy, the used games market overcomes the limitations of being physical by holding a copy for each 'customer' rather than being able to perform mitosis on it. :lol:

 

You say that piracy is too accepted socially, and that it's really the same as physical theft, but the way it works is too unique to say that.

 

Someone downloads a copy of GTA V from TPB and uses their flashed console to play it, they don't pay money to anyone.

Someone else buys a used copy in GAME that was £37.99 right next to the new ones that cost £39.99, he pays money to GAME, but not to the developer.

 

The police arrive and take person 1 away for theft of a video game.

Person 2 is merrily walking down the road watching matey boy being escorted to the meatwagon.

 

The question is, are you mad at pirates for not supporting the developer, or simply for their act of theft? I view both persons in equal standing, except person 2 is partially absolved perhaps due to ignorance of the mechanics at play in what he has done.

 

The used games industry is simply exploiting the physical distribution method in order to make money for themselves and give none to the developer, pirates who upload games to torrent don't make money, they are doing it just to do it.

 

I still disagree that piracy is the same as physical theft, and that it should be on the same level of social acceptance as physical theft, there is far too much at play to make such a binary judgement IMO.

[Recon-UK]

Yeah, it can, but the torrent has spread from one copy, the used games market overcomes the limitations of being physical by holding a copy for each 'customer' rather than being able to perform mitosis on it. :lol:

 

You say that piracy is too accepted socially, and that it's really the same as physical theft, but the way it works is too unique to say that.

 

Someone downloads a copy of GTA V from TPB and uses their flashed console to play it, they don't pay money to anyone.

Someone else buys a used copy in GAME that was £37.99 right next to the new ones that cost £39.99, he pays money to GAME, but not to the developer.

 

The police arrive and take person 1 away for theft of a video game.

Person 2 is merrily walking down the road watching matey boy being escorted to the meatwagon.

 

The question is, are you mad at pirates for not supporting the developer, or simply for their act of theft? I view both persons in equal standing, except person 2 is partially absolved perhaps due to ignorance of the mechanics at play in what he has done.

 

The used games industry is simply exploiting the physical distribution method in order to make money for themselves and give none to the developer, pirates who upload games to torrent don't make money, they are doing it just to do it.

 

I still disagree that piracy is the same as physical theft, and that it should be on the same level of social acceptance as physical theft, there is far too much at play to make such a binary judgement IMO.

An opinion barrier, but it also makes us look at the 2nd hand market in a different way, i am falling into a hole here, i do buy 2nd hand material, namely retro games.

[Askew]

An opinion barrier, but it also makes us look at the 2nd hand market in a different way, i am falling into a hole here, i do buy 2nd hand material, namely retro games.

 

Retro is different, the games aren't sold anymore, buying used is an option to maintain 'legality' downloading from coolrom is equally fruitful for those who made the game, and for you, yet it's illegal, and somebody thinks you should be seen in the same light as a car thief.

 

That is of course unless you care more about the legality than paying due to the creator.

[Askew]

I think this all started as you opposing not paying the creator for his work, and much less because it's illegal.

[Recon-UK]

Retro is different, the games aren't sold anymore, buying used is an option to maintain 'legality' downloading from coolrom is equally fruitful for those who made the game, and for you, yet it's illegal, and somebody thinks you should be seen in the same light as a car thief.

LOL

 

 

 

 

Truthfully, i may not have been as clued up as i first thought, i have enjoyed this discussion and have learnt more on the topic, i will thank you and the others here who were mature enough to converse with me on a serious debate.