New Build Performance Issues.

[TheIronPika]

Budget (including currency): 4000$ USD

Country: USA

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: Primary game is High end World of Warcraft.  Helldivers, BG3, Hunt , POE, light rouge likes

Existing Hardware Phanteks Eclipse P600S ATX Mid Tower Case.      MSI MEG 342C QD OLED 34.2" 3440 x 1440 175 Hz Curved Monitor.   1920x1080 Benq side monitor.  

Other details The primary goal was to upgrade my system to allow WoW to run at max settings and be able to record my gameplay at the same time.  I play on my primary monitor in full 3440x1440 and my side monitor has Discord, Chrome for Raid prep google docs/logs, and a log uploading software.  The only other thing I really have running is Razer software for the mmo mouse button mapping.  

 

 

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/NCZ9L9

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7900X 4.7 GHz 12-Core Processor  
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 50.5 CFM CPU Cooler 
Thermal Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut 1 g Thermal Paste   
Motherboard: Asus ROG STRIX B650E-F GAMING WIFI ATX AM5 Motherboard 
Memory: Crucial CT2K16G56C46U5 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-5600 CL46 Memory  
Memory: Crucial CT2K16G56C46U5 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-5600 CL46 Memory  
Storage: Crucial P5 Plus 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  
Video Card: XFX Speedster MERC 310 Black Edition Radeon RX 7900 XTX 24 GB Video Card  
Case: Phanteks Eclipse P600S ATX Mid Tower Case 
Power Supply: be quiet! Dark Power 13 1000 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  
Monitor: MSI MEG 342C QD OLED 34.2" 3440 x 1440 175 Hz Curved Monitor  
Total: $3166.62
 

 

Above is the system I built.  Pretty much immediately there are a few issues.  Primarily the system simply cannot handle running wow in a mythic raiding environment.  Out of combat I can easily sit at 150 - 370 fps.  The second I get into combat it drops to around 20-50 fps.  I expect it to drop lower but the amount is too much.  I simply had to just nuke my in game settings to basically minimum to keep the combat from being laggy.  Even with my settings at the floor in game I can dip under 10 fps at intense moments.  I have disabled all addons and it behaves the same.  The performance is worse than my old build with the same monitors.  

 

Compounding this issue is very frequent and persistent AMD driver timeout errors.  I did a long list of trouble shooting over several weeks for both issues.  The card is being RMA'd now.  I have two main questions.  Did I do something in the build construction that might be causing these issues?  Should I consider not repurchasing the same Video card because the driver related issues I've been having? 

 

 

Attempted Fixes
Clean Windows Install
Reset Bios 
Tried both PCIe Slots 
Windows update and latest windows build
AMD Cleanup Utility Reinstall Drivers
Disable Fast Startup in windows power settings
Disable VSR, Radeon Boost, Enhanced sync, Game mode in windows
Disabled hardware acceleration in discord, chrome, and steam.
Disabled MPO - Multi Panel Overlay with a reg file change
Confirmed temps stay low roughly 60's on the CPU and 
Used WinDbg to read the dump files 
Used DDU to remove drivers and reinstall while computer is disconnected from the internet.  
Asus performance enhancement disabled
Resize Bar off
Reinstalled AM5 Chipset drivers
Flashed bios again

Happens mostly in wow with discord an chrome open. But also during hunt and BG3. Typically it will black my screen for 5 seconds then close discord.  The game then comes back up once I alt tab from desktop and runs fine.  

[brob]

9 minutes ago, TheIronPika said:

Motherboard: Asus ROG STRIX B650E-F GAMING WIFI ATX AM5 Motherboard 
Memory: Crucial CT2K16G56C46U5 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-5600 CL46 Memory  
Memory: Crucial CT2K16G56C46U5 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR5-5600 CL46 Memory 

 

CL is excruciatingly high.

 

From the motherboard memory support page:

 

"Ensure that all memory modules are from the same validated memory kit. Do not mix DIMMs from different memory kits—even if they are the same brand and model (e.g., two DIMMs each from two different memory kits). Mixing and matching DIMMs can result in a failure to boot and compatibility issues. In particular, the stability of a system with mixed DIMMs cannot be guaranteed when XMP (Intel)/D.O.C.P (AMD)/EXPO (AMD)/AEMP/AEMPII is enabled. For example, enabling XMP (Intel)/D.O.C.P (AMD)/EXPO (AMD)/AEMP/AEMPII to speeds above DDR5 4800MHz or above DDR4 3200MHz could result in an unstable system."

 

No idea if this is contributing to the problems.

[podkall]

1 minute ago, brob said:

No idea if this is contributing to the problems.

it's probably not helping, yeah,

 

so few pointers @TheIronPika, the PC's cool, but the RAM is quite slow, for 30$ maybe less in US you can have way faster RAM and overall experience,

 

I don't know if there's any more perect speed of RAM than 6000Mhz and 30CL, you can possibly go even faster in Mhz kinds of things, but above 6000Mhz at 30CL is a gamble, and you want 30CL because it's basically latency,

 

so in terms of troubleshooting you probably tried everything, drivers, chipset drivers, DDU, etc.

 

have you tried running just 2 RAM sticks of the same kit though? because quad channel on AM5 might be slower than dual channel even if your RAM is running at whatever Mhz, it's basically as simple as "there's just 4 of them and that's too many different things" kind of deal,

 

the GPU might be unlucky honestly, it's quite great, AMD is "known" for driver issues, but that's only for usually brand new GPUs or when game releases and it's for some reason just more poorly optimized for AMD than Nvidia,

 

everything else besides RAM and the count of it looks decent, if you bought the ram as a 4-stick kit, it might be less of an issue, I'd still try to see if running 2 sticks does any better favour, also the latency, very high,

 

just for reference, this is CL30 6000Mhz latency:

 

and this is CL46 5600Mhz latency:

 

yeah, the number just gained 1,5x in value, and we're talking latency, the "time" it takes RAM to process/answer a request, so lower is better here,

 

 

that's about it from me, if you have any questions I can answer.

[SpookyCitrus]

If you haven't already, you should also run a Windows Memory Diagnostic and check for ram related issues. Ryzen 7000 CPUs/AM5 are notorious for memory compatibility issues, especially when using four modules instead of two, and then even more so when mix matching separate kits. Not to mention CL46 speeds are atrocious. I'd also try with just two modules installed instead of four.

 

I've been seeing nothing but issues with the 7900XTX cards(not all but a lot have been having them), seems like there is a post about them on here every other day with driver or hardware issues. I haven't used one personally. Also, I haven't been building any 7000 Ryzen CPU builds in my shop either due to similar software/ memory support issues. 

However, usually if you have the same issues on a completely fresh install of Windows with factory default bios settings and everything up to date and current drivers, it's usually a faulty component.

Personally, with all of the issues with AMDs GPUs the last couple Generations I don't really recommend them. I only us Nvidia in personal and customer builds these days. And I always make sure to warn others that are dead set on an AMD GPU of the potential issues. So, if you decide to get a new card, Nvidia is going to be a lot more stable. 

[podkall]

7 minutes ago, podkall said:

because quad channel on AM5 might be slower than dual channel even if your RAM is running at whatever Mhz

to explain this confusing sentence bit further, basically it's actually harder to achieve same RAM speed on quad you'd get from dual channel

 

1 minute ago, SpookyCitrus said:

I've been seeing nothing but issues with the 7900XTX cards(not all but a lot have been having them), seems like there is a post about them on here every other day with driver or hardware issues. I haven't used one personally. Also, I haven't been building any 7000 Ryzen CPU builds in my shop either due to similar software/ memory support issues. 

could be just unlucky and loud people though,

 

@PDifolco you have an XTX, any issues with it lately?

[SpookyCitrus]

12 minutes ago, podkall said:

could be just unlucky and loud people though,

 

@PDifolco you have an XTX, any issues with it lately?

Like I said, not all of them. But I have noticed it's becoming more and more. The driver issues used to be just an issue early on after release but 7000 series GPUs seem to have driver issues every other update and they've been out for quite a while now.

 

I've helped/talked with four separate people in the last month or so, all with 7900XTXs that have been having issues. Two of which are ongoing software/driver issues, and two others that were just straight up hardware failure. Just realizing now though that the two that had actual hardware failure were both purchased within the last three months and both were XFX models. So maybe that's a correlation.

[podkall]

7 minutes ago, SpookyCitrus said:

Like I said, not all of them. But I have noticed it's becoming more and more. The driver issues used to be just an issue early on after release but 7000 series GPUs seem to have driver issues every other update and they've been out for quite a while now.

 

I've helped/talked with four separate people in the last month or so, all with 7900XTXs that have been having issues. Two of which are ongoing software/driver issues, and two others that were just straight up hardware failure. Just realizing now though that the two that had actual hardware failure were both purchased within the last three months and both were XFX models. So maybe that's a correlation.

maybe AMD isn't as fast at copying Nvidia's stuff while maintaining it?

[PDifolco]

2 hours ago, podkall said:

to explain this confusing sentence bit further, basically it's actually harder to achieve same RAM speed on quad you'd get from dual channel

 

could be just unlucky and loud people though,

 

@PDifolco you have an XTX, any issues with it lately?

Really not much, 2 crashes in Cyberpunk lately over 200 hours of gameplay...

Before that was able to complete RoboCop with no issue, and BG3 as well but had recurring crashes with early versions, before patch 2 iirc, had to lower clock speed

So claim that 7900xtx have lots of issues is just wrong for me 

OP rig has a specific issue, sure RAM is slow but it doesn't explain its abysmal performance

I'd do a windows reinstall if issue isn't a defective GPU 

 

 

 

[podkall]

1 minute ago, PDifolco said:

Really not much, 2 crashes in Cyberpunk lately over 200 hours of gameplay...

OP rig has a specific issue, sure RAM is slow but it doesn't explain its abysmal performance

I'd do a windows reinstall if issue isn't a defective GPU 

 

 

 

way ahead of you, not me him, he did all of this already:

 

2 hours ago, TheIronPika said:

Attempted Fixes
Clean Windows Install
Reset Bios 
Tried both PCIe Slots 
Windows update and latest windows build
AMD Cleanup Utility Reinstall Drivers
Disable Fast Startup in windows power settings
Disable VSR, Radeon Boost, Enhanced sync, Game mode in windows
Disabled hardware acceleration in discord, chrome, and steam.
Disabled MPO - Multi Panel Overlay with a reg file change
Confirmed temps stay low roughly 60's on the CPU and 
Used WinDbg to read the dump files 
Used DDU to remove drivers and reinstall while computer is disconnected from the internet.  
Asus performance enhancement disabled
Resize Bar off
Reinstalled AM5 Chipset drivers
Flashed bios again

 

[PDifolco]

2 minutes ago, podkall said:

way ahead of you, not me him, he did all of this already:

 

 

So maybe a driver issue with this specific game, didn't play it

But to be sure of what's happening we'd need some GPU-Z readings of usage clock and power

[podkall]

6 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

So maybe a driver issue with this specific game, didn't play it

But to be sure of what's happening we'd need some GPU-Z readings of usage clock and power

it's a strange issue:

[PDifolco]

9 hours ago, podkall said:

it's a strange issue:

Haha

A 7900XTX to run that ?

OP could use his iGPU

 

[podkall]

7 hours ago, PDifolco said:

Haha

A 7900XTX to run that ?

OP could use his iGPU

 

the game is actually demanding, but probably more for CPU, there's many particles I'd assume

[TheIronPika]

On 3/20/2024 at 3:12 PM, podkall said:

the RAM is quite slow

I'm so sorry I must have linked an older build.   I have gskill F5-60000 in a 2 stick setup.   I basically very minorly aware of memory speed and CL and setting and all that so this too might be incorrect and if you have suggestions I am happy to do some changes or maybe a re purchase if needed. 

 

-

On 3/20/2024 at 3:38 PM, SpookyCitrus said:

e. The driver issues used to be just an issue early on after release but 7000 series

I had lots of driver issues with my last AMD card around this time so I was hesitant to go AMD again.  It was pretty disheartening to  get the driver time out message and black screen again. 

 

On 3/20/2024 at 3:12 PM, podkall said:

GPU might be unlucky honestly

I'm totally okay accepting that sometimes that happens but wanted to check and make sure people who know more didn't see some error like that possibly slow memory.  

 

11 hours ago, podkall said:

he game is actually demanding, but probably more for CPU

The saying has always been wow is a CPU bottleneck game more than GPU.  how true or valid that is today vs when it was first said I'm not actually too sure.  I assumed that this CPU would be good enough to handle anything reasonably modern single or multi threaded.  

[podkall]

2 hours ago, TheIronPika said:

The saying has always been wow is a CPU bottleneck game more than GPU.  how true or valid that is today vs when it was first said I'm not actually too sure.  I assumed that this CPU would be good enough to handle anything reasonably modern single or multi threaded.

the CPU in yoour build despite intensity should be yawning while running this game though

[BahnStormer]

Is that the actual spec of the RAM or is that just what you're running it at? I genuinely didn't know they made DDR5 RAM that slow.

 

Most gaming rigs for DDR5 run at 6000MT/sec, CL30.... your clock speed is 10% down on that AND your CL is over 50% higher.... your RAM speed is around 60-70% slower than normal DDR5 RAM for gaming....

 

EDIT: just read some of the other replies.... above response time stats indicate 64% slower, but there's a "sweet spot" for Ryzen 7000 at 6000MT/sec, so your real world impact will be more than the 64% - any time you get into part of a game where it's hitting the memory hard AND trying to swap data (new textures) to the graphics, expect the performance to tank. 

 

other option is the dual CCD issue - I see some ropey 1% lows due to the load (and cached data) being split across 2 CCD's on my 5900X.... try disabling one CCD (drop it to 6 cores) - should be plenty for most games and it will eliminate this from the equation.... RAM latency remains the main bottleneck though.

[brob]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:16 PM, TheIronPika said:

 I have gskill F5-60000 in a 2 stick setup.   I basically very minorly aware of memory speed and CL and setting and all that so this too might be incorrect and if you have suggestions I am happy to do some changes or maybe a re purchase if needed. 

 

Have you enabled an EXPO or XMP memory profile in the BIOS? CPU-Z can show your memory configuration. It will also show the full kit number. The HWInfo display is not particularly useful in this context.

[TheIronPika]

On 3/23/2024 at 5:50 PM, brob said:

 

Have you enabled an EXPO or XMP memory profile in the BIOS? CPU-Z can show your memory configuration. It will also show the full kit number. The HWInfo display is not particularly useful in this context.

Here is CPU Z.

The RMA card is back now so I will see if this issue keep occurring with the new card. I had no crashes at all while using a back up old nvidia card at all. 

On 3/23/2024 at 5:30 PM, BahnStormer said:

Is that the actual spec of the RAM or is that just what you're running it at? I genuinely didn't know they made DDR5 RAM that slow.

 

Most gaming rigs for DDR5 run at 6000MT/sec, CL30.... your clock speed is 10% down on that AND your CL is over 50% higher.... your RAM speed is around 60-70% slower than normal DDR5 RAM for gaming....

 

EDIT: just read some of the other replies.... above response time stats indicate 64% slower, but there's a "sweet spot" for Ryzen 7000 at 6000MT/sec, so your real world impact will be more than the 64% - any time you get into part of a game where it's hitting the memory hard AND trying to swap data (new textures) to the graphics, expect the performance to tank. 

 

other option is the dual CCD issue - I see some ropey 1% lows due to the load (and cached data) being split across 2 CCD's on my 5900X.... try disabling one CCD (drop it to 6 cores) - should be plenty for most games and it will eliminate this from the equation.... RAM latency remains the main bottleneck though.

Honestly not sure what you are saying here.  Might be a bit over my current understanding at least.  

[BahnStormer]

33 minutes ago, TheIronPika said:

Honestly not sure what you are saying here.  Might be a bit over my current understanding at least.  

Sorry if I was unclear that night (and a little rude), I was 3 bottles of wine deep already 

 

I made two comments: 

 

#1 "high latency" RAM: Most Ryzen 7000 (especially for gaming) benefits from 6000MT/sec RAM with the lowest latency possible, normally CL30 is the best value.... CL makes a huge difference to gaming performance... If you were to compare 6000MT/sec CL30 to 6000MT/sec CL45, the seconds set of memory would effectively have 50% slower response rate.

 

Some memory manufacturer's try to get really big sounding numbers on the MT/sec, but sacrifice latency at the cost of actual performance. e.g. 7200MT/sec CL40 sounds more impressive than 6000MT/sec CL30.... but in most cases, this 7200MT/sec (11ns responce) would be around 10% SLOWER than 6000MT/sec (10ns response) because of the high latency..... you said you had 5600MT/sec DDR5 CL46.

 

Worth noting that the CPU-Z screenshot is NOT from 5600MT/sec CL46 RAM you said you were buying, unless you absolutely won the silicon lottery and overclocked the living "snot" out it!!

 

#2 "dual CCD" CPU issue: 
I don't think this is the problem you're having as the main symptom of this issue is intermittent stuttering (dips in 1% lows), but it is an issue on some of the Ryzen CPUs once you go over 8 cores... I don't know how much of a problem it is on the Ryzen 7900X, but I know the 5900X and 5950X suffer from it... but worth noting only in some games.

 

This is because the Zen2/3/4  silicon consists of up to 8 cores on a "chip" (Core Chiplet Die, aka a "CCD") ... if you have a 12 core or 16 core CPU, they are actually on two CCD's (of 6 or 8 cores each), with a very fast bridge between them.... this works very well MOST of the time, but the problem comes when you realise that they have separate L3 cache.... Games benefit massively from L3 cached code and occasionally the expected cached code is on the wrong half of the CPU, so there's a blip down in performance while the cache is retrieved from the other core.

 

This is the reason why the Ryzen 7800X3D is normally favoured for consistently high gaming performance: most games still only use 6 cores... it has a metric f-ton of L3 cache and the cached code is always on the right chip (because there is only one CCD).

 

There is way to work out if this is the issue by disabling one half of the CPU, which would temporarily turn your PC into a a 6 core CPU (i.e. an overclocked 7600X).... and then try the game on only 6 cores.... not a long term solution, but it would eliminate the dual CCD issue from the equation. 

[brob]

1 hour ago, TheIronPika said:

Here is CPU Z.

The RMA card is back now so I will see if this issue keep occurring with the new card. I had no crashes at all while using a back up old nvidia card at all. 

Honestly not sure what you are saying here.  Might be a bit over my current understanding at least.  

 

The screenshot indicates you are running DDR5~6000 30-40-40-96.