Linux vs windows -- Just so we dont de-rail a news topic.....

[jagdtigger]

21 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

I mean depends for user and use case, performance wise and compatibility with other things that won't work like so.

 Maybe it changed but some SW would perfectly work in wine, its just the dev that is intentionally blocking it (like some games banning users for it)....

 

21 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

You can uninstall them though? In general they don't bother me, some are good to have. Edge I've had some issued before where it couldn't launch and reinstall/repair was a mess. I've hard they will decouple it from Windows so cool. 

But I think restrictive was here was meant not in those ways but more like general usability especially from the get go, Windows is just way better out of the box. And also restrictive in another way you could say is indirect with not being as supported which is still a thing that is a con though.

Yes some of them you can, but the rest in fairness the whole "linux requires temrinal bad" sentiment is not because you have to do it a hacky way via funnily enough a terminal.....

 

21 hours ago, Doobeedoo said:

But I think restrictive was here was meant not in those ways but more like general usability especially from the get go, Windows is just way better out of the box. And also restrictive in another way you could say is indirect with not being as supported which is still a thing that is a con though.

Outside of bleeding edge HW its not so cut and dry. Ran into plenty of cases where i had to hunt drivers down for windows (including networking so windows couldnt do it) so i had to boot linux (have a bunch of ISOs on a stick with ventoy) which pretty much recognized everything. SW support is pretty good too, even if you cant find something you usually can get a good enough substitute for the wast majority (MSO vs LibreOffice). The main issue is i think that ppl stuck on this "oh its different" loop, meanwhile windows 7-10-11 are wildly different too........

[Doobeedoo]

2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

 Maybe it changed but some SW would perfectly work in wine, its just the dev that is intentionally blocking it (like some games banning users for it)....

 

Yes some of them you can, but the rest in fairness the whole "linux requires temrinal bad" sentiment is not because you have to do it a hacky way via funnily enough a terminal.....

 

Outside of bleeding edge HW its not so cut and dry. Ran into plenty of cases where i had to hunt drivers down for windows (including networking so windows couldnt do it) so i had to boot linux (have a bunch of ISOs on a stick with ventoy) which pretty much recognized everything. SW support is pretty good too, even if you cant find something you usually can get a good enough substitute for the wast majority (MSO vs LibreOffice). The main issue is i think that ppl stuck on this "oh its different" loop, meanwhile windows 7-10-11 are wildly different too........

For online games it's understandable they're blocking for security reasons though.

 

Just from Settings you search app and uninstall. At least there is not bloat crap though I say, default apps are fine.

The Linux terminal thing, well introducing it to new people as replacement new OS let's be fair it just lacks how it's used vs Windows. If you can't do stuff quick and easy through GUI on modern OS, especially if we're talking about for eventual Windows alternative or by miracle replacement, it need to be at least as good as Windows in that way. It's fragmentation is a double edged sword.

 

No, I mean sure in those cases you can do all that and substitutes are there. But, let's be real for majority it's more entertainment side, so like games, latest feature support along, certain software that doesn't exist or have proper substitute. Same for some productivity/pro/work SW too. Or new HW support. So I get it for some that can get by leaving all this, but we're talking about majorities requirements in UI/UX familiar and expected usability along with straight up working software and features.

The "oh it's different" is there because for less tech savvy people, it's just true. Windows is more set-up from the get go and certain things just work also in a sense how you interact further for some simple things. Windows just feels more automated in certain things in short, less clicks and fiddling to do something.

I would say even between Windows versions there was no as much difference in baseline, which is why people prefer "don't change basic things" UI and usability wise. Then you show them Linux distros and oh wow, happens even for Mac and Mac has memes of it's on UI/UX wise. 7 was still old school but more modern look, 8/8.1 was a meme with that forced Metro start, but you would disable that. 10 I'd say was solid but unfinished with new Settings and UI elements, 11 improved all that, still some things to go but they're easy to use and are also not ugly.

So we can't have a full on alternative for Windows until both HW, SW, devs put equal effort and support. Even then, we'd need the go-to OS not bunch of them.

[jagdtigger]

On 11/23/2023 at 10:22 PM, Doobeedoo said:

For online games it's understandable they're blocking for security reasons though.

That is very much debatable, current anti-cheat is a joke at best and wine aint any worse in other regards than windows ....... But i dont want to go down that rabbithole, it was just an example.
 

On 11/23/2023 at 10:22 PM, Doobeedoo said:

Just from Settings you search app and uninstall. At least there is not bloat crap though I say, default apps are fine.

Im not debatin whther they are good or not, that varies from person to person. What im debating is the system preventing you from removing basically non-essential SW (yes including edge).

 

On 11/23/2023 at 10:22 PM, Doobeedoo said:

The Linux terminal thing, well introducing it to new people as replacement new OS let's be fair it just lacks how it's used vs Windows.

Guess my point wasnt very clear, let me edge it out and put it more bluntly: Ppl didnt had issues with having to use PS to remove non-essential applications on windows, so why the hate on linux then for the rare use of the terminal?

 

 

On 11/23/2023 at 10:22 PM, Doobeedoo said:

No, I mean sure in those cases you can do all that and substitutes are there. But, let's be real for majority it's more entertainment side, so like games, latest feature support along, certain software that doesn't exist or have proper substitute. Same for some productivity/pro/work SW too.

True enough, but as far as my limited experience goes what you speak of is basically a minority. My dad is the perfect r=1 user example. Has a private and a work laptop. Absolutely hated 10 when it came out, dont want to touch 11 at all. Made him a proposal when win7 was getting sketchy without updates on his private laptop, ill install kubuntu so he can try it out and wipe it if he wants to go back to windows (he was already using firefoy so moving the profiles was a nothing burger). This was several years ago and that laptop is on the same install of kubuntu.....

On 11/23/2023 at 10:22 PM, Doobeedoo said:

The "oh it's different" is there because for less tech savvy people, it's just true. Windows is more set-up from the get go and certain things just work also in a sense how you interact further for some simple things. Windows just feels more automated in certain things in short, less clicks and fiddling to do something.

I would say even between Windows versions there was no as much difference in baseline, which is why people prefer "don't change basic things" UI and usability wise. Then you show them Linux distros and oh wow, happens even for Mac and Mac has memes of it's on UI/UX wise. 7 was still old school but more modern look, 8/8.1 was a meme with that forced Metro start, but you would disable that. 10 I'd say was solid but unfinished with new Settings and UI elements, 11 improved all that, still some things to go but they're easy to use and are also not ugly.

So we can't have a full on alternative for Windows until both HW, SW, devs put equal effort and support. Even then, we'd need the go-to OS not bunch of them.

Im tech savvy and even i was thrown off by the ugly abomination that 8/8.1/10/11 is...... To this day if i have to do something i just go straight for the CP whenever i can because the settings app is a steaming pile of garbage. Hell even ubuntu 9.10 with the gnome ui was more polished and usable than any of those.......
As for windows being set-up from the get-go that is easy to beat. Linux comes with an actual office suite that functions without a subscription and a media player that can play things like standard h264 without instantly requiring a download...........................................

[Doobeedoo]

5 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

That is very much debatable, current anti-cheat is a joke at best and wine aint any worse in other regards than windows ....... But i dont want to go down that rabbithole, it was just an example.
 

Im not debatin whther they are good or not, that varies from person to person. What im debating is the system preventing you from removing basically non-essential SW (yes including edge).

 

Guess my point wasnt very clear, let me edge it out and put it more bluntly: Ppl didnt had issues with having to use PS to remove non-essential applications on windows, so why the hate on linux then for the rare use of the terminal?

 

 

True enough, but as far as my limited experience goes what you speak of is basically a minority. My dad is the perfect r=1 user example. Has a private and a work laptop. Absolutely hated 10 when it came out, dont want to touch 11 at all. Made him a proposal when win7 was getting sketchy without updates on his private laptop, ill install kubuntu so he can try it out and wipe it if he wants to go back to windows (he was already using firefoy so moving the profiles was a nothing burger). This was several years ago and that laptop is on the same install of kubuntu.....

 

Im tech savvy and even i was thrown off by the ugly abomination that 8/8.1/10/11 is...... To this day if i have to do something i just go straight for the CP whenever i can because the settings app is a steaming pile of garbage. Hell even ubuntu 9.10 with the gnome ui was more polished and usable than any of those.......
As for windows being set-up from the get-go that is easy to beat. Linux comes with an actual office suite that functions without a subscription and a media player that can play things like standard h264 without instantly requiring a download...........................................

Yeah anti-cheat is always a catch up game, but probably more to it then we know as far as devs, publishers and all.

 

I have not tried to remove everything, but I did remove some things. For example which apps you couldn't remove? I even had to reinstall Edge because it once got broken with update. Now, it was uninstalled like the wizard did, but it seems broken parts lingered. Was hard to fix as it's so integrated into OS. That said, they will decouple Edge it was mentioned lately.

 

No, I'm not arguing using terminal or PS on Windows at all. I'm saying how for general folk Windows is dumb easy to use from clean install. I'm merely saying how most people feel and see it. We don't have a go-to Linux distro that is Windows like in terms of familiarity use and support. Doesn't exist, who knows if it ever will.

 

That's good that it works for him though. But I've dealt with enough of older people where they expect everything to be the same, at same place, so when new Windows is out, more or less it's ok and only some things need to be set. Also certain software that is win only. So aside for some people that only do basic office stuff and email it's in general ok whatever works for them. But can't say any I've seen were bothered with Windows for their use. Now on the other hand, more younger audience well they definitely require Windows for many reasons like I mentioned before as they don't work or exist on Linux even. 

 

8/8.1 was unnecessary, 10 improved certain things under the hood and some settings, but always felt unfinished in parts, updates to whatever always felt in chunks and never fully featured or complete like UI/UX stuff. It got better over time, but really 11 pickup up at that point and I find it rather solid. Still some old school UI lingers there, some functions need PowerToys for example, some odd UI choices still there but what can you do but tweak it. Settings in 11 improved a lot though, I only now use CP for certain app stuff and some config stuff, because it's quicker and easier to find some things still. This is one of their quirks, still not finished merging.

In 11 they did start updating their core apps which is good, like notepad, paint, new media player. Office stuff I guess you can use their free ver. or something different.

I've watched Wendell on some of the Linux stuff and in terms of gaming support and other, while things improved, man it's far from any mainstream. 

[xAcid9]

Meh, just another Linux is not Windows thread.