(Canada) Considering Videotron"s Helix Fi 2

[tinpanalley]

I have several questions as I look into the new Giga internet.

1. The person I was just speaking to at Videotron said I could even just buy one from someone online and avoid the monthly cost. I see several on Marketplace. How do I know what to be wary of buying one from someone else? How do I trust they have a valid serial number?

2. I'm on the 400 plan and the Legacy modem. Why do you need a Helix to get 1GB? Coax can handle 1GB and so can the Legacy modem, can't it?

3. Used only as a modem (because I have my own routing solution already) is the Helix on par with the Legacy technicolor modem? Is it worse? Better? Remember I won't be using it for WiFi but I will be using every ethernet port.

[Donut417]

A couple of things. Im not in Canada but in the US. I do have experience with Coax based Internet however. 

 

21 minutes ago, tinpanalley said:

The person I was just speaking to at Videotron said I could even just buy one from someone online and avoid the monthly cost. I see several on Marketplace. How do I know what to be wary of buying one from someone else? How do I trust they have a valid serial number?

Does the ISP sell equipment to users? The reason I ask is because most ISP's in the US only rent equipment and therefore anyone selling ISP supplied equipment has effective stolen it. BUT some ISP's in the US also might allow you to buy their equipment. Unfortunately outside of asking for the serial number and calling up the ISP before you buy it, there's nothing you can do. Another option is to check if they allow retail modems on their network. Also if they do check to see if they offer a supported device list. 

 

27 minutes ago, tinpanalley said:

I'm on the 400 plan and the Legacy modem. Why do you need a Helix to get 1GB? Coax can handle 1GB and so can the Legacy modem, can't it?

It might be a standards thing. Docsis 3.0 modems are still common and speeds will be dictated by how many Downstream and Upstream channels the modem has access to. For example the SB6141 has 8 downstream and 4 upstream. While a Docsis 3.0 32 downstream by 8 upstream can do Gig speeds technically, that would mean running up to the max of what the Docsis 3.0 standard can do. Most cable providers dont have the ability to run up to the max of what the standard can do. Docsis 3.1 modems have 32 channels down and 8 up can support much faster speeds, which might be what you provider requires. I know all the US cable companies require 3.1 modems to Gigabit and faster. 

 

Oh and another thing with Gigabit Ethernet you will be limited to about 940 Mbps down due to overhead. Anything faster will require a 2.5 Gbps Ethernet port. 

 

32 minutes ago, tinpanalley said:

Used only as a modem (because I have my own routing solution already) is the Helix on par with the Legacy technicolor modem? Is it worse? Better? Remember I won't be using it for WiFi but I will be using every ethernet port.

The Helix is a Docsis 3.1 modem/router combo. Looks like it supports Multi Gig as it seems to have a 2.5 Gbps Ethernet port that can be used for WAN or LAN. They claim a 1 Gbps Coax port but I think that just bad marketing, Docsis 3.1 can supply multi gig services thru coax. Honestly It looks a lot like the devices supplied by Cable providers here in the US, my guess is they go to the same supplier. Comcast my provider has stuff that looks exactly like it, just with different branding on it . Id say if you use it in bridge mode it should be fine. 

[tinpanalley]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Does the ISP sell equipment to users?

Yes, this is actually done. Videotron here in Canada sells you the device month by month. It's yours to own when you've paid it off which you can do at any time in full if you so choose. I just don't get why, if coax is perfectly capable of handling up to 1gbps internet, you would need a new device so I imagine it's just to push the device which makes their smart home and digital TV easier to connect for people buying all that stuff of which I do none.

[tinpanalley]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Unfortunately outside of asking for the serial number and calling up the ISP before you buy it

Right, to which someone on marketplace is basically gonna say, "no, why would I just give you my serial number like that".

[Donut417]

22 minutes ago, tinpanalley said:

just don't get why, if coax is perfectly capable of handling up to 1gbps internet, you would need a new device so I imagine it's just to push the device which makes their smart home and digital TV easier to connect for people buying all that stuff of which I do none.

The coax is not what handles the speed its the standard that the modem uses that dictates speed. Docsis 3.0 modems are not going to be provisioned for those speeds. Its likely your current box is a 3.0 and they want you to upgrade to a 3.1. Going forward coax based ISP's are going to be pushing 3.1 going forward until Docsis 4.0 become available. 

 

 

As I stated here: 

 

Quote

Docsis 3.0 modems are still common and speeds will be dictated by how many Downstream and Upstream channels the modem has access to. For example the SB6141 has 8 downstream and 4 upstream. While a Docsis 3.0 32 downstream by 8 upstream can do Gig speeds technically, that would mean running up to the max of what the Docsis 3.0 standard can do. Most cable providers dont have the ability to run up to the max of what the standard can do. Docsis 3.1 modems have 32 channels down and 8 up can support much faster speeds, which might be what you provider requires. I know all the US cable companies require 3.1 modems to Gigabit and faster. 

 

Oh and another thing with Gigabit Ethernet you will be limited to about 940 Mbps down due to overhead. Anything faster will require a 2.5 Gbps Ethernet port. 

 

As you seen on the chart Docsis uses Channel Bonding to get faster speeds. 3.0 has many options. The speeds that is achievable is more or less up to the cable provider based on how clean the signal on the cable is. For example, my ISP will only do about 260 Mbps with a 8x4 modem. 

 

Docsis 3.1 added OFDMA channels to the mix and thats how they are doing Gigabit and faster. So if you want Gigabit then you need a 3.1 modem. 

[Smith6612]

I should also add to this thread. Even if your current modem is capable of the speeds you're ordering... say, if it's a DOCSIS 3.0 modem that can go "Up to 1.2Gbps" most ISPs won't even bother to provision tiers like Gigabit onto such hardware. Many DOCSIS ISPs follow a rule of not provisioning any more than 50% of a modem's capable speed onto a modem, and this is a network management practice. It helps to avoid heavy usage of your modem congesting the DOCSIS channels that your modem is locked onto for your neighbors, and it helps to guarantee the speed you're paying for. If a modem congests the node, this can also cause modems to start channel hopping to less congested channels, which causes a sharp reduction in speed and also service interruptions for others.

 

With DOCSIS 3.1, OFDM support is introduced which unlocks a wide amount of bandwidth. Depending on how clean the cable system is and how the cable provider has configured the system (modulation, bandwidth allocation), this can add up to a few extra Gigabits to the downstream capacity of a cable node. Gigabit service on many providers is provisioned at or slightly above 1Gbps, so in order to see the full tier, DOCSIS 3.1 is needed.

[tinpanalley]

Hey, thanks so much, really learned a lot!

From both of you. I guess then I ned to figure out if buying this thing used is ok. There are SO many people selling them on Marketplace. If you don't know the market up here, Videotron is a media company/ISP/mobile provider available only in the province of Quebec though it can be used all across North America. But the way this Helix 2 works is that they sell it by doing it over 2 years of installments at the end of which it's yours to keep. Their feeling is that people hate renting equipment and then they don't need to worry about what to do in 2-3 years when a new modem-router comes out and people return them all. Shitty practice to dump the waste on customers, but there you have it.

 

Regardless of how you feel about it, people seem ok with it and then they all just sell them when they move. This also has a lot to do with how rental properties and even modern condos work here. Inreasingly, rental properties are offering WiFi for an entire building. So people are in one apartment, they sign up to Videotron here in Montreal because it's the best service for a high mbps ISP on most of the island and then they move either to a place they buy or to a 6 or 3 apartment building that shares the internet. That would drive me nuts, but younger people don't seem to care. And that's when they go and sell these Helix 2 modem-routers.

 

Just gotta figure out which one looks reasonably in good shape on marketplace.

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, tinpanalley said:

Shitty practice to dump the waste on customers,

That better than the Comcast way. You pay for it forever. Oh and if you turn it in, better get a receipt because they will charge you full price for the fucker when they lose it before entering it as returned.