WHY is Everyone Buying This Power Supply??

[Dracarris]

14 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

The R&S is one of the hottest scopes on the market.

The R&S one the left was the hottest thing for a while and still an absolute dream to use.

That thing on the right is a Lecroy with 12 bits@10GS/s (1 GHz bandwidth)!

If there is one scope missing is the Tek MSO-5.

While those are not exactly high-high-end, they for sure are very nice pieces of scope equipment (R&S RTO 2000 series already can go much more extreme in terms of simultaneous x and y resolution edit: nvm 2000 series can only do 500MHz at 12bit).

One thing to note is the price shown for the Lecroy is _used_ and even for that I am surprised how "cheap" it is as this class of scopes can easily run into the 6-digit regime, especially from LeCroy.

 

BTW: The ultra clickbaity title almost kept me from watching this very interesting video. Thought this would be another one of those lame AliExpress meme product reviews.

[socrguy143]

4 hours ago, SmileyGG said:

Do anyone tested Be Quiet! System Power 10 (650W)? I'm going to buy this PSU and I want to know if itf good or not

Looks to be a low end C tier. Probably should get a different one

[Tan3l6]

Too bad there is no real "failure rate" statistics for all the low-, and the other -end PSUs.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

15 hours ago, FlyingPotato_is_taken said:

@ImorallySourcedElectrons Do you use Rigol? They have downsides, especilly in the UX [and bugs], but they are dirt cheap for what they offer.

 

For tek the MSO5 is fine. What I don't get is the new MSO-2. Either they sell at extreme discounts or they are just not worth it at MSRP.

Keysight?  They are in a wired place for the general purpose scopes. There UI is fine but just fine. At the asking price you might as well just buy a scope with nicer UX. 

From a professional point of view for scopes:

• Rigol and Siglent are ok for the price, you know what you're getting into: it's a budget option with ok hardware, it'll do it's job but you'll waste a lot of time getting there. Documentation in Siglent is also rather questionable at times, and Rigol their more advanced triggering is rather "meh".
• Tek: forlorn glory, used to be top of the industry and mediocre at best these days. Tried out several of their newer models in recent years, there's just always *something* (hardware, software, documentation, support) seriously wrong, no matter what. Their support sucks, and their own distributors are frequently bashing them at this point. They also skimp money on everything and don't support older hardware.
• R&S: good performance, decent price point, sturdy build quality, performs well. Physical UX is somewhat lacking, and until recently they missed some of the more advanced quality-of-life features.
• Hameg before R&S acquisition (because these scopes flooded the refurb market): Avoid at all costs, it'll cause your electronics staff to commit suicide.
• Lecroy: Excellent hardware, derp UX (try and put it next to a Keysight or R&S scope in the same lab and see which ones get used), and oh boy if you need support.
• Keysight: good hardware, good pricing, excellent support (even for ancient hardware), average software UX, really good physical UX (they have the right selection of knobs and they have them per channel), and loads of non-obvious quality of life features (and pretty much the darling of analog designers such as myself as a result of that).
• Picotech (USB scopes): Good for DAQ, OK software, good price point, not really usable in production monitoring.
• B&K: No idea, haven't used them in years.

But the main reason to go for Keysight over R&S is if you're doing analog or mixed-mode design, their triggers are a tad bit better, they have dedicated knobs for the right thing where R&S doesn't, etc.  But I do agree it's not necessarily a numbers game anymore the comparison between the two.

 

For personal use:

• Rigol and Siglent: Good value
• Tek: Avoid, they'll tell you to fuck off if you got problems, even if the local distributor is willing to help you.
• R&S: Good 
• Hameg before R&S acquisition: Throw that thing out of the window into the nearest active volcano
• Lecroy: Good luck finding a distributor that wants to talk to you
• Keysight: Good
• Picotech: No thanks
• Fluke/Philips: Ok if you can get it cheaply, but realise that they overstate the specs massively on most of them.
• Hantek: If you really must
• GW Instek: Possibly a brick makes for a better scope
• B&K: Allegedly usable though not the best from what I've heard.

The above is also why folks have been avoiding Tek and why they have to give massive discounts, they're relatively expensive for providing not-so-great service.

 

9 hours ago, nhand42 said:

I can only dream of one day being able to afford Rohde & Schwarz anything. That thing makes Rolls Royce look like an off-brand. They've been the gold standard for decades.

Their older RF gear is great, and can usually be had for a reasonable price on eBay, etc. I have some of their signal generators and a spectrum analyser for my homelab. Their support is relatively friendly and ok towards hobbyists, and there's a community writing keygens, etc. for the older end-of-life instruments, so you can still get the features unlocked even if R&S doesn't sell them anymore.

[papajo]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:56 PM, AlexTheGreatish said:

The Thermaltake Smart 600W is the most popular power supply on Amazon... but that doesn't mean it is good.

 

Buy an EVGA 450 BR PSU: https://geni.us/qAuje2

Buy a Seasonic Prime TX 650 PSU: https://geni.us/yq4g

Buy a Thermaltake Smart 600W PSU: https://geni.us/ODPQMM

Buy a Corsair SF450 PSU: https://geni.us/ompP

Purchases made through some store links may provide some compensation to Linus Media Group.

 

 

 

a lot more context needs to be added when reviewing PSUs 

I mean even the PSU with the high PFC disparity could be an ok solution for a cheap pc that will never come near the max of this PSU and saving money from the initial purchase makes more sense to the buyer than waiting e.g a decade to make up for the extra cost of a better PSU (again for this particular customer with this particular usa case I described) . 

 

Also check for jitters and noise in general (when many devices e.g multiple GPUs) are used and overclocked etc. 

[hui]

One thing that I will suggest for the final database that LTT build is to have good photos of the box and the PSU as part of the testing. The PSU tier list is great, but it can be quite confusing to figure out what is a "yellow label box (triangular grille)". It looks like even @AlexTheGreatish fell victim to this as the PSU in the video was misidentified as a C tier when it was actually an F tier. :D

 

A partial solution can be to include a link to the amazon listing (I'm sure this will be done anyway even if just for the affiliate money), but that doesn't help people in countries like Pakistan (hi!) where even the brand new PSUs available locally are often a couple of years old. 

 

Can't wait for them to test EVERYTHING and make my life as a spec-me-a-PC-in-this-budget-guy much easier.

[Chriscosmo12]

It is hilarious to see this video being posted. A few weeks ago I submitted an RMA request because my 600w SMART series power supply (exact same one in the video) causes no display issues with my testbench after less than a year of ownership. They denied RMA stating it was purchased through a third party on Amazon, but yet Amazon's support says to go to Thermaltake? Not a good look for their brand and I'm stuck not sure what to do with this paperweight. Corsair's RMA process was amazing when I had to go through them for a family member's dead PSU.

[LogicWeasel]

@LMGcommunity Can we talk about how the links under the video include a recommendation to "Go buy a [PSU that failed the tests in the video]"  (The F-tier Thermaltake Smart 600W unit).

 

I optimistically assume this was a simple error and that whoever put the links down there wasn't actually told to include ALL the PSUs in the video even if they failed the testing.  Especially since the even more awful EVGA N1 400W wasn't included as a link there.

 

Perhaps you wanna snip that link from your list so the amazon geni.us links only include PSU's that the video agrees with using.

[Drevo Dano]

2 hours ago, hui said:

One thing that I will suggest for the final database that LTT build is to have good photos of the box and the PSU as part of the testing. The PSU tier list is great, but it can be quite confusing to figure out what is a "yellow label box (triangular grille)". It looks like even @AlexTheGreatish fell victim to this as the PSU in the video was misidentified as a C tier when it was actually an F tier.

 

A partial solution can be to include a link to the amazon listing (I'm sure this will be done anyway even if just for the affiliate money), but that doesn't help people in countries like Pakistan (hi!) where even the brand new PSUs available locally are often a couple of years old. 

 

Can't wait for them to test EVERYTHING and make my life as a spec-me-a-PC-in-this-budget-guy much easier.

Exactly, and manufacturers could give each model its own unique name.

[cvr24]

Testing is more difficult these days because manufacturers now have to make changes to their product to accommodate component shortages and availability.  Used to be that once the product was put to market, nobody concerned themselves with such a thing. 

 

That big name power supply with Japanese capacitors that used to be Panasonic, but now are Sanyo which is a Japanese company but the caps are now made in China, is it still the same?

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:32 PM, Mark_nz said:

I've been surprised too about how efficient modern day switchmode power supplies are.

(In my experience with signage and server power supplies.)

 

If @LMGcommunity is able to, server power supplies would be interesting for efficiency standpoint. I use them for projects because they sell cheaply secondhand (crypto crash).

and just because LMG may be able too..... find a cheap medical device with a PC inside and test that PSU in it. Compare 'medical grade' to a standard consumer PSU .

 

Another point to show is power losses into heat and the impact on a system. E.g. if the PC case air intake or air outtake is through the PSU.

Heck, even how the power efficiency changes with air flow restrictions. Like components within a case or the PC case being too close to a wall.

Just saw that I still had the reply to this one open as a draft

 

You can blame the EU for this one, if you want that CE label you got to meet EN6100-3-2, which means you need power factor correction if you don't meet any of the exceptions listed here: https://emcfastpass.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Applicability_flow_chart.pdf The EU is also the sole responsible for driving up power supply efficiency in general, they set quite a few regulations and forced everyone to meet them by a certain date, and (unsurprisingly) manufacturers complied.

[XNOR]

On 7/12/2023 at 5:20 PM, ImorallySourcedElectrons said:

From a professional point of view for scopes:

• Rigol and Siglent are ok for the price, you know what you're getting into: it's a budget option with ok hardware, it'll do it's job but you'll waste a lot of time getting there. Documentation in Siglent is also rather questionable at times, and Rigol their more advanced triggering is rather "meh".
• Tek: forlorn glory, used to be top of the industry and mediocre at best these days. Tried out several of their newer models in recent years, there's just always *something* (hardware, software, documentation, support) seriously wrong, no matter what. Their support sucks, and their own distributors are frequently bashing them at this point. They also skimp money on everything and don't support older hardware.
• R&S: good performance, decent price point, sturdy build quality, performs well. Physical UX is somewhat lacking, and until recently they missed some of the more advanced quality-of-life features.
• Hameg before R&S acquisition (because these scopes flooded the refurb market): Avoid at all costs, it'll cause your electronics staff to commit suicide.
• Lecroy: Excellent hardware, derp UX (try and put it next to a Keysight or R&S scope in the same lab and see which ones get used), and oh boy if you need support.
• Keysight: good hardware, good pricing, excellent support (even for ancient hardware), average software UX, really good physical UX (they have the right selection of knobs and they have them per channel), and loads of non-obvious quality of life features (and pretty much the darling of analog designers such as myself as a result of that).
• Picotech (USB scopes): Good for DAQ, OK software, good price point, not really usable in production monitoring.
• B&K: No idea, haven't used them in years.

But the main reason to go for Keysight over R&S is if you're doing analog or mixed-mode design, their triggers are a tad bit better, they have dedicated knobs for the right thing where R&S doesn't, etc.  But I do agree it's not necessarily a numbers game anymore the comparison between the two.

 

For personal use:

• Rigol and Siglent: Good value
• Tek: Avoid, they'll tell you to fuck off if you got problems, even if the local distributor is willing to help you.
• R&S: Good 
• Hameg before R&S acquisition: Throw that thing out of the window into the nearest active volcano
• Lecroy: Good luck finding a distributor that wants to talk to you
• Keysight: Good
• Picotech: No thanks
• Fluke/Philips: Ok if you can get it cheaply, but realise that they overstate the specs massively on most of them.
• Hantek: If you really must
• GW Instek: Possibly a brick makes for a better scope
• B&K: Allegedly usable though not the best from what I've heard.

The above is also why folks have been avoiding Tek and why they have to give massive discounts, they're relatively expensive for providing not-so-great service.

 

Their older RF gear is great, and can usually be had for a reasonable price on eBay, etc. I have some of their signal generators and a spectrum analyser for my homelab. Their support is relatively friendly and ok towards hobbyists, and there's a community writing keygens, etc. for the older end-of-life instruments, so you can still get the features unlocked even if R&S doesn't sell them anymore.

Keysight has been backsliding too. I'm a big fan of a lot of their equipment, but the new stuff is often more cost optimized than you'd want for the price, and they're cutting service too. Getting parts isn't anywhere near as easy as it used to. Only the high end stuff seems to be comparable to what they used to build. That 110 GHz oscilloscope is a thing of beauty.

 

Lecroy are mostly rebranded Siglent oscilloscopes with a different color nowadays, with a hefty price premium.

[ImorallySourcedElectrons]

37 minutes ago, XNOR said:

Keysight has been backsliding too. I'm a big fan of a lot of their equipment, but the new stuff is often more cost optimized than you'd want for the price, and they're cutting service too. Getting parts isn't anywhere near as easy as it used to. Only the high end stuff seems to be comparable to what they used to build. That 110 GHz oscilloscope is a thing of beauty.

Mhhhh, might be that the service we're getting is better because we're pretty much next to one of their offices. 

[Ultraforce]

On 7/12/2023 at 3:24 PM, LogicWeasel said:

@LMGcommunity Can we talk about how the links under the video include a recommendation to "Go buy a [PSU that failed the tests in the video]"  (The F-tier Thermaltake Smart 600W unit).

 

I optimistically assume this was a simple error and that whoever put the links down there wasn't actually told to include ALL the PSUs in the video even if they failed the testing.  Especially since the even more awful EVGA N1 400W wasn't included as a link there.

 

Perhaps you wanna snip that link from your list so the amazon geni.us links only include PSU's that the video agrees with using.

I think the answer is at the end of the day we are fine with a person choosing to buy a fire hazard or a terrible product, but if you want to after watching the video we'd like a cut of it. I think this is something people have talked about with a few of their videos including Why is everyone buying videos where they say that a product is ewaste and it's still got a "buy a" link.