WWDC 2023: What to expect (READ FOR UPDATE)

[hishnash]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I doubt Apple is introducing a product in to the market that they intent to make multiple of their other devices obsolete or irrelevant. Does this actually make business sense? Nope.

 

So apple is not afraid of doing this, they have done it mutliipel times in the past, the iPhone for example made the iPod obsolete. Apples pheosphvy on this is that it's much better to make your own product obsolete than sit around and wait for someone else to make it obsolete. 

however with respect to the headset I do not believe the aim is to replace the phone, Your correct unless everyone has contact lenses the phone forma factor is much better even than putting on and off regular glasses.  

If there is any product the headset will aim to replace is the Mac and some iPad use cases.  However the key higher end iPad content creation use cases, such as drawing and artistry will remain on the iPad due to the tactile nature of the device, content consumption will move to the headset and yes gaming of course (even just 2d game windows in space that can expand or 2.5 table top like games).  Infact I think some of the most compelling games in the headset will be 2.5D table top 3RD person games were you are looking down at the game world from above. Think about playing Diablo like this with gaze to controle focus and differnt hand gestures to do primary secondary attacks along with switching weapons etc.   

[actually-light]

24 minutes ago, leadeater said:

As I have said before pretty much every use case shown was of a static application

As it turns out, people like to sit down. What, am I gonna watch TV or write emails standing in the middle of my room doing cardio?

 

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Sitting on a couch watching a video is quite different to showing and saying this device is great for documents, email or moving your MacBook display over to, where was the actual usage of these?

They pretty clearly noted that the office suite runs on it, and like... What, do you want them to show you how PowerPoint 365 works? They also showed that you can use it as a MacBook display, and again, that's pretty self-explanatory.

 

16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

In a few years with it being essentially like it is now, the device type, it's not going to replace the iPhone. How you use a phone versus ad headset is too different. Unless that headset fits in your pocket and is as quick and convenient to pull out and use then it's never going to overlap with a phone, and it doesn't have to.

Why would you take it off? Once the battery can last 12 hours or so and improvements to lens and screen tech improve eye comfort, most people will be able to get through a workday wearing one. People who spend hours on their phones every day might as well just wear one and be able to multitask more effectively.

 

18 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I doubt Apple is introducing a product in to the market that they intent to make multiple of their other devices obsolete or irrelevant. Does this actually make business sense? Nope.

This already obviously makes the iPad irrelevant for content consumption, and with a Bluetooth keyboard it'll be able to replace an iPad/Mac in many productivity tasks as well.

 

20 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Lets just say the Vision Pro/no-Pro gets cheaper, say $1500. Why would Apple be wanting to sell 1 Vision device to a customer rather than 1 $1000+ phone and 1 $2000+ laptop and maybe also 1 $1500 VR headset. I think investors in Apple would have something to say about Apple willingly and knowingly cutting out key revenue of the business with something that provides less.

Because it's better to sell a $2000 headset to 75% of the population than a $900 phone to 25% of the population and a $2000 laptop to 20%. It's also foolish to assume that you can keep selling people the same thing indefinitely when other companies are working to open new markets that might obsolete the current ones. That's how you become irrelevant.

 

23 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Want isn't the issue. Actually being something that gets used and is also actually good to use is where the real story is. I wanted my PS Vita, it looked amazing, I like the idea of it. I brought it, I used it for a few months, it NEVER got used again. But remember I did want it.

Yeah, how is that in any way comparable? Could you easily replace 90% of your laptop tasks with it? Could you replace your monitors and TV with it?

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, hishnash said:

So apple is not afraid of doing this, they have done it mutliipel times in the past, the iPhone for example made the iPod obsolete.

That's one not multiple and I can't really think of other times. Supplanting the iPod was basically unavoidable and is also a much lower cost device fortunately.

 

10 minutes ago, hishnash said:

However the key higher end iPad content creation use cases, such as drawing and artistry will remain on the iPad due to the tactile nature of the device

Why not just hold a stylus with the headset on and draw on a table? You could actually achieve this with the headset. I think that could be interesting to explore.

 

12 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Infact I think some of the most compelling games in the headset will be 2.5D table top 3RD person games were you are looking down at the game world from above.

Or board games, actually being able to play classic and digital classic board games should be excellent with this. Table Top Simulator is kind of nice in a way but also shockingly bad, with this device the same could be done so much better, soooo much better. But it also essentially makes playing with actual physical board game possible so long as one person has the key parts of it and the other could have their own dice for example. Or the board is physical with one person but all the pieces are virtual.

 

Oh the possibilities  

[saltycaramel]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Well of course and we all can have our own, but for me lack of detailed usage examples is a very good justification for it, the best of most possible options.

 

Apple: “Your whole battle station will be condensed in a portable lunchbox-sized thingy”. 

 

Answer: “Why is this necessarily a good thing and better than what we have?”
 

Apple: “You’re going to juggle Minority Report style life sized big-as-you-want virtual displays floating in your room, wherever you happen to be, and control them at the speed of thought by just looking at UI elements (like you already do anyways in Windows/macOS before moving the mouse, it’s just one step less); plus: 100-feet IMAX-sized personal movie theater says hi”

 

Answer: “Show me how and why this is better than what we have tho, walk me through detailed usage examples in the first-contact-introduction, otherwise you did a terrible job at explaining why the use cases will benefit.”

 

Not an opinion I can see myself sharing. 

 

Apple, with a 6-9 months runaway before the launch (and probably a second event), was very deliberate in what to show us and what they wanted us to talk about. What not to show because it was undercooked. What to show for maximum clarity and focus easing us into this weird, alien new UX paradigm.

 

My reaction, as I said a couple of pages ago, is more like: prove to me it’s not physically uncomfortable/hot to wear for a long time. Because that’s the deal breaker and what would make me prefer using good old real world physical displays with may face fresh, clean, free and unencumbered. Or prefer using the most beloved pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-hands personal device in history: the smartphone (so I agree this an uphill battle, one only actual lightweight visionOS glasses could eventually really win for good).

 

But apart from that, oh boy. Ohh boy. No further show&tell needed about why this is better than what we have, to me. I just need the Nth iteration of this to be so comfortable it disappears. 

 

Until then (and maybe even after), they’ll coexist, just like iPhone + Watch + Mac + iPad coexist right now…to be used based on the situation, the occasion or even the mood.. (it needs to be noted that most of Apple’s 1 billion users only own an iPhone, no Mac or iPad, so adding a visionOS headset or even eventually substituting their only iPhone with a just-as-high-margin-but-wider-competitive-moat product probably wouldn’t be that bad for Apple’s bottomline..)

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, actually-light said:

As it turns out, people like to sit down. What, am I gonna watch TV or write emails standing in the middle of my room doing cardio?

I think you missed the point, if you are going to say you can send emails with it don't just show a static image of the inbox, how about get the person to use Mail App and reply to an email?

 

6 minutes ago, actually-light said:

They pretty clearly noted that the office suite runs on it, and like... What, do you want them to show you how PowerPoint 365 works? They also showed that you can use it as a MacBook display, and again, that's pretty self-explanatory.

Is actually show it. Ok you have a headset on, what is the input method of choice for writing a Pages document? Physical keyboard? Virtual keyboard? Voice?

 

Stuff running on it isn't the issue , it's never been the issue. Actually using them is this "new" "better" way is. Show them being used.

 

8 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Why would you take it off? Once the battery can last 12 hours or so and improvements to lens and screen tech improve eye comfort, most people will be able to get through a workday wearing one. People who spend hours on their phones every day might as well just wear one and be able to multitask more effectively.

Because it depends on weight and other factors like safety. Are you allowed to drive with it on? No, absolutely not, this does break every country safety laws so you will be taking it off. Also how does it handle being outside? I don't remember that being shown? Future device might be better at that but I'm not convinced Apple has plans for it being used in public areas all that soon.

 

11 minutes ago, actually-light said:

This already obviously makes the iPad irrelevant for content consumption, and with a Bluetooth keyboard it'll be able to replace an iPad/Mac in many productivity tasks as well.

That's still on the assumption that long term wearing of this is not a problem. It's also assuming you don't have problems actually using a physical keyboard. I'd like to see a prolonged typing test with one before I'm going to say it's as good as look at without the headset and is problem free or near problem free to not be an issue.

 

I like that you can use a BT keyboard, it vastly increases the versatility of the device but still comes back to the fact it was barely shown as being done.

 

14 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Because it's better to sell a $2000 headset to 75% of the population than a $900 phone to 25% of the population and a $2000 laptop to 20%. It's also foolish to assume that you can keep selling people the same thing indefinitely when other companies are working to open new markets that might obsolete the current ones. That's how you become irrelevant.

That is a very fantastical view of things, quite a lot. If you mean 75% of people who buy computing devices will be buying this then that's not ever going to be true, I'm going to go with you aren't saying this. Vision Pro isn't going to convert Windows users over.

 

iPhone sales are huge, it's Apple's premier device so your 25% start point relative to the Vision Pro is vastly misplaced. For a good long time Apple laptops are going to greatly outsell the Vision Pro. Since we are however talking future this is still a massive change and the Vision Pro has to actually prove itself past the novelty of it being and different.

 

17 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Yeah, how is that in any way comparable? Could you easily replace 90% of your laptop tasks with it? Could you replace your monitors and TV with it?

Because you made it about want. Want alone doesn't sustain much.

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

prove to me it’s not physically uncomfortable/hot to wear for a long time

I literally have. Absolutely proven without question. If you want to deny that wearing a weight on your head while you move your head around is not a problem then you have some hard reality coming for you.

 

Unlike a group of people using it for 30 minutes each at a time people have used comparable weight devices on their heads and you do you know what happens? How is the Vision Pro not going to do this?

 

Historic real usage and evidence says these headsets do have problems but yet because the technology sounds so good you are willing to set that aside without any usage showing it's not? That is not something I will do. That to me is odd and counter intuitive. 

 

The Vision Pro does not defy gravity and it does not defy your eye muscles either.

[Paul Thexton]

Kinda surprised Apple didn’t use carbon fibre instead of metal for the construction to save weight, all they’d have to do is add a couple more thousand dollars to the device cost lol.

[DerKleine]

Regarding demonstrating use cases, the issue I see is that the announcement failed to prove a significant enough upgrade in many day-to-day tasks to outweigh the inherent downsides to any head-mounted device.

 

The Apple vision pro supposedly weighs around 1 pound, which is impressive for something packing so much tech. However, that's also not very different from my Oculus Rift S (1.1 pounds). From experience, I can tell you that despite that thing having a solid mounting system with a top strap, the reason I rarely want to use it for more than an hour has nothing to do with motion sickness and everything to do with the weight of the headset digging into my skull in an uncomfortable way.

 

Could the headset get lighter in future generations? Sure, but there are limitations to that, and remember that the Vision Pro as it is now is cheating a little by not including the battery in the headset, which undoubtedly is not Apple's long-term vision for where it's supposed to be. And that future where a headset with built-in battery, cameras, displays and processing is as light as a pair of glasses is still a loooooong way off.

 

Another issue with HMDs is that the setup process is slightly less convenient than for many existing devices, which makes (frequent) use less desirable. Consider the following factors:

 

1. How are you going to store the headset? Probably not as conveniently as other computing devices, because you want the thing that's pressed to your face to be especially clean. It's also not going to compete with the size of a phone.

2. Once you have the headset in your hands, you still need to put it on and get it properly aligned and adjusted.

3. (For the current Vision Pro): You'll also need to connect and strap on the battery pack/deal with power delivery. 

 

It might not sound like much, but each of these steps can be an additional barrier to wanting to use the device, which for very basic use cases may be enough to deter ultimately choosing it. HMDs are not great for short-term use (because it takes more effort to start using the device), but also not great for long-term use (because of comfort factors).

 

 

So when looking at use cases, think of it like this:

You can browse your messages/the web/whatever immersively with a ton of weight strapped to your head and a less convenient setup process than pulling out your phone.

 

Is that added immersion and screen real estate really going to outweigh the inherent downsides of the headset? How much more screen real estate do you really need for those tasks, and how much do floating windows in your room really add to those activities? Are you really going to pull out your headset for that (for short-term browsing), or going to want to keep wearing it for longer sessions? 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There has also been a lot of talk about replacing other devices. Personally, I still see a bunch of use cases where I'd still want to use a phone/tablet/laptop over a headset that a headset inherently can't replace.

 

Phones? The small form factor is too big of a deal - can't be replaced.

 

Tablets? I mostly use my tablet to watch content in bed/while eating/while exercising and do some occasional stylus-using activities. Would I want to use an HMD in bed/while eating or exercising? Not really. In bed, it would restrict the ways I can lie while using the device. While eating, it might get dirty (and isn't going to be nearly as easy to clean as a tablet). While exercising it's inherently going to have significant comfort downsides. Oh, and the headset also can't replace the use case where I use my tablet as a portable kind-of-decent-ish pair of speakers.

 

Laptops/Desktop PCs? This is where the long-term use comfort concerns mentioned above come into play. And since many tasks will still require a keyboard and probably also a mouse (don't think I'll be 3D modelling or using a game engine with just my hands any time soon), I'd still be tied to a desk even with the headset. And with inherently less processing power in the headset than in a larger non-wearable device, the lack of processing power would have to be compensated for by having demanding applications be streamed to the headset from another device.

It's still the most likely type of device a headset could replace for me, but it's still not the easy win some people are presenting it to be.

 

TVs? Only if you're forever alone. (and again: can deal with the potential comfort concerns). But if that's not a problem, it's going to be great! I don't watch TV though.

 

My VR headset? In Apple's infinite wisdom to NOT have optionally supported VR controllers, the Apple Vision Pro ironically can't even replace existing VR headsets. Granted that would be easy to change retroactively, but it's kind of funny to think about. I fully support that basic usage should be done without traditional XR controllers (as they'd add a step to the setup process), but for many VR games, having all those sticks, buttons and haptic feedback is kind of necessary.

[saltycaramel]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I literally have. Absolutely proven without question. If you want to deny that wearing a weight on your head while you move your head around is not a problem then you have some hard reality coming for you.

 

Unlike a group of people using it for 30 minutes each at a time people have used comparable weight devices on their heads and you do you know what happens? How is the Vision Pro not going to do this?

 

Historic real usage and evidence says these headsets do have problems but yet because the technology sounds so good you are willing to set that aside without any usage showing it's not? That is not something I will do. That to me is odd and counter intuitive. 

 

The Vision Pro does not defy gravity and it does not defy your eye muscles either.

 

I was asking Apple to prove that to me.

 

I’m in your camp in this: it’s still an headset.

 

Needs to get slimmer and lighter.

[leadeater]

2 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

Kinda surprised Apple didn’t use carbon fibre instead of metal for the construction to save weight, all they’d have to do is add a couple more thousand dollars to the device cost lol.

I thought this has gotten way cheaper now. Some stuff get made with it that isn't that expensive. Could be other reasons to be using the metal though, passive cooling for example.

[leadeater]

Just now, saltycaramel said:

 

I was asking Apple to prove that to me.

 

I’m in your camp in this: it’s still an headset.

 

Needs to get slimmer and lighter.

Ah, sorry I misunderstood 

[hishnash]

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Why not just hold a stylus with the headset on and draw on a table? You could actually achieve this with the headset. I think that could be interesting to explore.

 

You would need very good tracking and response times, maybe in 5 years but not for a long time will it be as good as the 240hzt sample rate of the Apple Pencil for drawing. 

 

[Paul Thexton]

16 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I thought this has gotten way cheaper now. Some stuff get made with it that isn't that expensive. Could be other reasons to be using the metal though, passive cooling for example.

The cost comes from the Labour. As far as I’m aware nobody’s cracked mass production of carbon fibre yet for complex shapes, such as the chassis for this headset would be. The fibre sheets are moulded to fit the template by hand.

 

edit: Fair comment about passive cooling though, I had forgotten about that bit

 

If anybody knows differently please share appropriate links showing it as I’m a massive nerd and would love to see how people solve(d) the challenge.

[Paul Thexton]

13 minutes ago, hishnash said:

You would need very good tracking and response times, maybe in 5 years but not for a long time will it be as good as the 240hzt sample rate of the Apple Pencil for drawing. 

 

I used the Microsoft Surface Hub in our office yesterday, it made me realise just how well the 1st gen Apple Pencil works on my iPad

[hishnash]

21 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

I used the Microsoft Surface Hub in our office yesterday, it made me realise just how well the 1st gen Apple Pencil works on my iPad

Apple Pencil is next level, also from an api perspective one sweet thing apple do is they have a ML model running continuously that forecasts the future pencil location this so even through your frame update might be 8ms behind the latest info in many cases it is spot on were the tip of the pencil will be at that time. 

[actually-light]

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think you missed the point, if you are going to say you can send emails with it don't just show a static image of the inbox, how about get the person to use Mail App and reply to an email?

Are you suggesting that Apple should've spent valuable keynote time showing people how to use a mail app? What?

 

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Is actually show it. Ok you have a headset on, what is the input method of choice for writing a Pages document? Physical keyboard? Virtual keyboard? Voice?

 

Stuff running on it isn't the issue , it's never been the issue. Actually using them is this "new" "better" way is. Show them being used.

They did. While they didn't focus on it because it would be a total waste of time, here you can pretty clearly see the VP being used to replace a laptop/desktop workstation, with some fancy AR bullshit to boot.

 

42 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because it depends on weight and other factors like safety. Are you allowed to drive with it on? No, absolutely not, this does break every country safety laws so you will be taking it off. Also how does it handle being outside? I don't remember that being shown? Future device might be better at that but I'm not convinced Apple has plans for it being used in public areas all that soon.

Obviously you won't be able to drive with an HMD on until the technology is more mature, but why would you not be able to wear it outside? Outside is not somehow magically different from inside. It's probably better lit to boot.

 

44 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's still on the assumption that long term wearing of this is not a problem. It's also assuming you don't have problems actually using a physical keyboard. I'd like to see a prolonged typing test with one before I'm going to say it's as good as look at without the headset and is problem free or near problem free to not be an issue.

 

I like that you can use a BT keyboard, it vastly increases the versatility of the device but still comes back to the fact it was barely shown as being done.

Why would you have issues using a physical keyboard? One journalist reported that they were able to take notes on their phone, let alone a full-sized keyboard. You can even passthrough a keyboard in the quest pro, and by all accounts that thing kind of sucks compared to the clarity of the VP.

 

45 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That is a very fantastical view of things, quite a lot. If you mean 75% of people who buy computing devices will be buying this then that's not ever going to be true, I'm going to go with you aren't saying this. Vision Pro isn't going to convert Windows users over.

That's absolutely going to be true in the future. There's absolutely no reason why someone would pick an ultrabook over a mature version of this technology.

 

46 minutes ago, leadeater said:

iPhone sales are huge, it's Apple's premier device so your 25% start point relative to the Vision Pro is vastly misplaced. For a good long time Apple laptops are going to greatly outsell the Vision Pro. Since we are however talking future this is still a massive change and the Vision Pro has to actually prove itself past the novelty of it being and different.

No, by all accounts iOS currently makes up roughly 28% of the mobile market at the moment. And of course Apple laptops will outsell the Vision Pro, it's a new technology that's clearly not ready for mainstream adoption. But that's the point of this device; it sets the baseline for what the experience should be like. God knows Meta hasn't managed it.

 

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I thought this has gotten way cheaper now. Some stuff get made with it that isn't that expensive. Could be other reasons to be using the metal though, passive cooling for example.

They've stuck in a fan that apparently generates enough airflow that people reported feeling cool air across their face. They didn't complain about fan noise, so presumably it's not going that hard, but it's definitely not relying on passive cooling.

 

41 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Phones? The small form factor is too big of a deal - can't be replaced.

That's only true until you stop having to take it off every hour or two.

42 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Tablets? I mostly use my tablet to watch content in bed/while eating/while exercising and do some occasional stylus-using activities. Would I want to use an HMD in bed/while eating or exercising? Not really. In bed, it would restrict the ways I can lie while using the device. While eating, it might get dirty (and isn't going to be nearly as easy to clean as a tablet). While exercising it's inherently going to have significant comfort downsides. Oh, and the headset also can't replace the use case where I use my tablet as a portable kind-of-decent-ish pair of speakers.

People already exercise in headsets. I'm pretty sure that's actually a pretty major use case for the Quest 2. And in what scenario is using a tablet in bed more comfortable than having it strapped to your face? I can't even imagine wanting to hold up a heavy tablet over my face while lying on my back. And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable. And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

 

44 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Laptops/Desktop PCs? This is where the long-term use comfort concerns mentioned above come into play. And since many tasks will still require a keyboard and probably also a mouse (don't think I'll be 3D modelling or using a game engine with just my hands any time soon), I'd still be tied to a desk even with the headset. And with inherently less processing power in the headset than in a larger non-wearable device, the lack of processing power would have to be compensated for by having demanding applications be streamed to the headset from another device.

It's still the most likely type of device a headset could replace for me, but it's still not the easy win some people are presenting it to be.

I'm pretty sure it can extend Mac displays, so while you'd still be desktop bound, you'd save a lot of desk space that would otherwise be monitors. 

 

45 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

My VR headset? In Apple's infinite wisdom to NOT have optionally supported VR controllers, the Apple Vision Pro ironically can't even replace existing VR headsets. Granted that would be easy to change retroactively, but it's kind of funny to think about. I fully support that basic usage should be done without traditional XR controllers (as they'd add a step to the setup process), but for many VR games, having all those sticks, buttons and haptic feedback is kind of necessary.

Ironically, I feel like other VR headsets are the least important competition. Meta has sold something like 20 million Quest 2's, which are by far the most popular headset on the market. 20 million devices is like, what... the Apple TV? I can understand why Apple wouldn't target that market. They don't need to convince people to buy a Vision instead of a Quest, they need to convince someone who would've otherwise bought a MacBook Air or an iPad Pro.

[hishnash]

10 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Why would you have issues using a physical keyboard? One journalist reported that they were able to take notes on their phone, let alone a full-sized keyboard. You can even passthrough a keyboard in the quest pro, and by all accounts that thing kind of sucks compared to the clarity of the VP.

 

There the latancy is good enough that you will not have issue, other VR/AR headsets have much higher latency so doing any fine fast finger movement like typing is impossible. 

 

14 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable. And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

With other AR/VR headsets at the AR projection is not perfect, this means yes you absoulty could end up missing your mouth when eating with it on.  What people who have tested the apple headsets have said is that the AR projection is perfect, you when you put it on and take it off everything distant and near is exactly in the same spot, this is very impassive given the cameras they have are not were your eye balls are so they need to do a lot of computations magic to combine the feed from multiple cameras to retroject it as if its from your eye persecutive.  

[leadeater]

56 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

As far as I’m aware nobody’s cracked mass production of carbon fibre yet for complex shapes

CFRPs can but it's much more expensive than metals and other plastics.

[leadeater]

35 minutes ago, actually-light said:

They did. While they didn't focus on it because it would be a total waste of time, here you can pretty clearly see the VP being used to replace a laptop/desktop workstation, with some fancy AR bullshit to boot.

That's not showing them being used, that is showing the application running and doing nothing with it. I don't think you are grasping the point.

 

35 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Are you suggesting that Apple should've spent valuable keynote time showing people how to use a mail app? What?

 

Yes I am because using it with the Vision Pro is not the same as any other device so actually show it being used the way they think or intend it to be used so I can see they aren't full of hot air and it's actually practical to do so. Show don't tell.

 

If they show it being used with eye tracking and voice to text only then immediately I know it's going to be horrible and full of errors. If they show it with eye tracking and a virtual keyboard then I'll need to see that virtual keyboard being used, finger gesture or eyes? If they show it with eye tracking and a BT keyboard then show me someone typing on the keyboard while changing between eye or hand gesture with the app.

 

These usability things aren't as much of a given as you think, I know 100% Apple has done all the research and user testing of this. I want to see it. Details matter.

[DerKleine]

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

That's only true until you stop having to take it off every hour or two.

Which is both not going to happen any time soon (for numerous reasons) and wearing such a headset in everyday life isn't going to become socially acceptable any time soon.

 

For that to happen you'd not just have to be able to wear the headset all the time (again: pretty big issue), but actually be prepared to do so, because putting an HMD away while on the go isn't going to be as easy as putting your phone into your pocket.

 

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

People already exercise in headsets. I'm pretty sure that's actually a pretty major use case for the Quest 2.

Yes, I have also played a bunch of Beatsaber on my Rift S. Doesn't change the facts that...

• not all exercises are equally suitable to be performed while wearing a headset.
• The reason why some exercise is done with headsets already isn't because of the headset, it's because of the experience and despite the headset. The headset subtracts from the experience, the application being played has to make that up. Placing a tablet next to me somewhere doesn't really detract from anything, so a lot more content becomes "good enough" to be engaged with while exercising.
• Exercising with the headset will increase the need for maintenance of the headset (cleaning), and make it less desirable to use shortly after exercising. Not so much an issue with existing VR headsets that you'd stop using once you're done playing, but would be more of an issue with the AVP.

So no, "there are exercises that exist that people do with their HMDs" does not imply "all exercise is great with an HMD".

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And in what scenario is using a tablet in bed more comfortable than having it strapped to your face? I can't even imagine wanting to hold up a heavy tablet over my face while lying on my back.

Wow, you found the one out of 3 (4?) orientations in which the headset kind of makes more sense. Too bad I often don't want to lie on my back, and having 500g pressing down on my face when I want to lie down doesn't sound all that enticing. Also, even when you're lying on your back, there's still a head strap going around the back of your head. It might not be as much of an issue with the APV since it's just fabric at the back, but it's still something.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable.

You're going to be shovelling food millimetres below the headset and have a chance of bonking whatever beverage container you're drinking from into the bottom of it, so yeah, I think I'd rather deal with occasionally having to touch a touchscreen with the knuckle of an otherwise greasy finger.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

Another case of ignoring that other people might exist and wearing stuff might not always be the most comfortable.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

I'm pretty sure it can extend Mac displays, so while you'd still be desktop bound, you'd save a lot of desk space that would otherwise be monitors. 

That still means you'll have to constantly go through the setup process of starting your external computing device and connecting it to the headset. And with monitor arms, the amount of desk space actually removed by a display doesn't even have to be that high.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Ironically, I feel like other VR headsets are the least important competition. Meta has sold something like 20 million Quest 2's, which are by far the most popular headset on the market. 20 million devices is like, what... the Apple TV? I can understand why Apple wouldn't target that market. They don't need to convince people to buy a Vision instead of a Quest, they need to convince someone who would've otherwise bought a MacBook Air or an iPad Pro.

That example was given more as a joke, but also to demonstrate that such an easy and logical value add was ignored because... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
XR controllers could still be useful for several professional applications as well, and having a standardized one would probably be beneficial for developers.

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

These usability things aren't as much of a given as you think, I know 100% Apple has done all the research and user testing of this. I want to see it. Details matter.

If you want to try out Voice Control and see how it would work and you have a Mac available nearby you can always test it?

 

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210539

 

I expect that Voice Control for Vision Pro will be built off the same tech that's built in to macOS and presumably iOS as well (haven't looked to see if it exists in iOS)

 

Note: I didn't even know that was a feature in macOS until a few days ago (I knew you could do speech-to-text, I didn't know you could drive the UI with voice), so I haven't tried it myself yet.  I actually do intend to though because while I've tested the product I work on works well with macOS VoiceOver feature, I've not personally tested how easy our product is to interact with using Voice Control.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

If you want to try out Voice Control and see how it would work and you have a Mac available nearby you can always test it?

 

Well like I was alluding to I don't need to test the voice part of it, it's bad heh. Constant errors would just get too annoying.

[leadeater]

31 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

For that to happen you'd not just have to be able to wear the headset all the time (again: pretty big issue), but actually be prepared to do so, because putting an HMD away while on the go isn't going to be as easy as putting your phone into your pocket.

And for the next 5 years, if not more, there is a high chance someone will rip it off your head and destroy it. "You" might be ok with them out in public, the "public" on the other hand may not be.

[Paul Thexton]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well like I was alluding to I don't need to test the voice part of it, it's bad heh. Constant errors would just get too annoying.

Interesting. Like I say I've never tried it myself but I do intend to ... thanks for the heads up and let me set my expectation levels accordingly I'm kind of surprised that it's bad though, Apple generally do a good job for accessibility features. 

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

Interesting. Like I say I've never tried it myself but I do intend to ... thanks for the heads up and let me set my expectation levels accordingly I'm kind of surprised that it's bad though, Apple generally do a good job for accessibility features. 

Voice is just really hard, no one has got it perfect yet. Simple commands are one thing and even the error rate on that can  get tiresome but is anyone really going to be willing to put up with that on an actual longer form email reply? Making corrections every time will get annoying real fast. 

 

 

 

Edit:

Should note it's not as bad as I'm making out but it's not error free enough for it to not get annoying to really be suitable method for longer email replies and document editing. Not that I think that is Apple's intention for such usage.