[rant] - I think Nvidia should bump up it's naming scheme and come up with new TOTL title

[Goldilock]

With Nvidia releasing RTX 4070 at $600, it just rubs me the wrong way. 70 series is supposed to be "mainstream", but with each generation the "mainstream" increase in price and becomes something that the "mainstream" can hardly afford. I come from 3rd world, so $600 is like my full month salary as middle class in my society.

 

 

I think Nvidia should bump up it's naming scheme and come back to reality. For example calling AD104 not as mainstream RTX 4070, but RTX 4080. And as for it's TOTL they should use Titan name more often. Let's call current RTX 4090 as RTX 4090 Titan.

 

I know that Nvidia and AMD naming bracket and pricing strategy are very different nowadays, but it's not an excuse to call $600 hobby item as "mainstream", this kind of view just do not fit many people's sense of reality. 

 

I don't know if ranting is allowed, but if allowed, thanks LTT for letting me write my rant.

 

[porina]

Changing the name without changing the price doesn't really make a difference. You still pay the same amount for the same product. Personally I don't think 70 tier is exactly mainstream. The volume is at 60 tier and below. 70 is kinda above average, without jumping to high end 80 and halo 90/Titan tiers. 

[BetteBalterZen]

You can only really blame consumers for the prices we're seeing today. If Nvidia wasn't able to sell at these prices, prices would come down. 

[LAwLz]

Since when is the 70 series considered mainstream? 

I've always considered the 60 series to be the higher end mainstream stuff, and stuff like the 50 series to be the real volume seller. 

[Avocado Diaboli]

«What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.»

 

People really need to stop giving so much of a damn about what something is called. From the way I see it, the 4070 is basically the same in terms of raw gaming performance as the 3080 at a lower price. You also get more memory, less power draw, DLSS 3 and AV1 encoding. Yes, a "70-class card" (stupid moniker) used to cost less. But you're still getting more for less money, performance wise.

 

Maybe I'm being cynical here, but in my estimation a lot of the complaints from people moaning about the name on these cards and the supposed price increase based on that name stem from the fear that they might be considered lower class citizens if they're no longer able/willing to shell out the prices Nvidia are demanding to stay in their caste. "I'm a 70-class customer. That means something. I want to remain a 70-class customer. What will the neighbors think if I can only buy a 60-class GPU?!"

 

You said it yourself, OP, $600 is a middle class income in your country. That already betrays the fear that you don't want to lose that status of middle class. You don't want to be considered poor just because you're not willing to spend a month's salary on a GPU.

 

 

[porina]

48 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I've always considered the 60 series to be the higher end mainstream stuff, and stuff like the 50 series to be the real volume seller. 

Looking at March 2023 Steam Hardware Survey for 30 series only:

 

First value is percentage of all GPUs, 2nd in brackets is percentage of 30 series GPUs.

 

All 3090s 0.43% (1.3%)
All 3080s 3.18% (9.4%)
All 3070s 8.14% (24.1%)
All 3060s 18.42% (54.6%)
All 3050s 3.58% (10.6%)

 

The median 30 series GPU is the 3060. If you own a 3070, you're in the top 35% of 30 series owners.

 

I also would have thought there would be more 50 series. Do the owners of them not use Steam? 3060 (not-Ti) and 3050 are GA106 based, maybe yield was good so most binned as 3060? 2060 was still in production for a long time so maybe that took over the lower end that would have gone to 3050?

 

Spoiler

March 2023 Steam Hardware Survey - all 30/40 series + 2060

0.43 3090

 

2.57 3080
0.61 3080 Ti

 

5.31 3070
1.98 3070 Ti
0.59 3070 Laptop
0.26 3070 Ti Laptop

 

10.44 3060
4.95 3060 Ti
3.03 3060 Laptop

 

1.92 3050
0.79 3050 Ti Laptop
0.63 3050 Laptop
0.24 3050 Ti

 

7.89 2060

1.92 2060 Super

 

0.25 4090
0.23 4070 Ti
0.19 4080

 

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, porina said:

Looking at March 2023 Steam Hardware Survey for 30 series only:

 

First value is percentage of all GPUs, 2nd in brackets is percentage of 30 series GPUs.

 

All 3090s 0.43% (1.3%)
All 3080s 3.18% (9.4%)
All 3070s 8.14% (24.1%)
All 3060s 18.42% (54.6%)
All 3050s 3.58% (10.6%)

 

The median 30 series GPU is the 3060. If you own a 3070, you're in the top 35% of 30 series owners.

 

I also would have thought there would be more 50 series. Do the owners of them not use Steam? 3060 (not-Ti) and 3050 are GA106 based, maybe yield was good so most binned as 3060? 2060 was still in production for a long time so maybe that took over the lower end that would have gone to 3050?

I went back a but further and looked. This is what it looked like in January 2015, the latest survey I could find before the 10 series came out.

If I have done my calculations correctly, this is what the statistics looked like then, for DX11 cards:

 

Spoiler

GPU	Nvidia owners:
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760	7,44%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660	6,20%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650	5,12%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 770	5,05%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 630	4,84%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 620M	4,26%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 550 Ti	3,86%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 970	3,84%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti	3,15%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti	3,01%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 740M	2,69%
NVIDIA GeForce GTS 450	2,58%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti	2,30%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670	2,28%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780	2,24%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560	2,09%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 Ti	2,07%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 640	2,05%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M	1,98%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M	1,96%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M	1,92%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 430	1,92%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 540 M	1,85%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750	1,81%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 860M	1,71%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460	1,71%
NVIDIA GeForce 840M	1,62%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680	1,56%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 610	1,53%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 440	1,45%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 570	1,30%
NVIDIA GeForce 610M	1,19%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 Ti	1,04%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M	1,02%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980	1,02%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 850M	1,00%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 520	0,98%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 765M	0,92%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 635M	0,87%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 620	0,85%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 580	0,85%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 640M	0,75%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 525M	0,72%
NVIDIA GeForce GT 520M	0,70%
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti Boost	0,68%

 

Only 19.18% of people had a 70 class card or higher. If you had a 70-class card back in 2015, you had a higher end graphics card than over 80% of Nvidia owners.

And that was back when the 980 cost 550 dollars.

 

 

[Blademaster91]

The 70 series used to be more of a mainstream card, when Nvidia had priced their cards at more of a mainstream level. But now that all the 40 series cards are priced up a whole tier, cards that were midrange are now being sold as higher end cards. The 4070 which has a die size of a x60 tier card, and not much of a performance increase over the previous x70 tier while being more expensive. Nvidia is trying really hard with the 40 series to sell their cards with DLSS3, although in my opinion DLSS3 frame generation should only be used as a last resort if a game doesn't run at the monitor resolution or you can't run a game at high with decent frame rate.

And I agree the x90 tier should be the Titan, when the x90 tier was added it only caused the other high end cards to be more expensive.

[YoungBlade]

24 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

And I agree the x90 tier should be the Titan, when the x90 tier was added it only caused the other high end cards to be more expensive.

But you see, that was the whole point of dropping the Titan line.

 

The Titan line created a strong segmentation in the mind of consumers. Titan GPUs were meant for professionals and enthusiasts with more money than sense. I believe the idea of the "Titan" lineup was to entice consumers to buy something for the mystique of it. To say you owned a Titan card meant you were a baller. But this caused an unexpected problem: Most average gamers just ignored the Titan cards as if they didn't exist.

 

That's not good for your halo products. You want people to imagine the possibility of owning a halo product, because that spurs demand. And you want gamers to at least consider the possibility of owning a card like that, on the chance that they'll dig a bit deeper into their pockets to come up with the cash for it.

 

But, once you've released an RTX 3090 for $1500, then it makes it easier to tug the 80-class up to a higher price, like $1200, because you've already shown consumers that "gaming" cards are meant to be sold for $1500.

 

If the RTX 3090 was called the RTX Titan 2, or something, and sold for $1500, Titan buyers would have been excited, but most folks would have ignored it. The top-of-the-line card would de facto be the RTX 3080 at $700. Then, this generation, if the RTX Titan 3 (4090) cost $1600, again, Titan buyers would rejoice, and most folks would ignore it. But seeing the RTX 4080 at $1200 would have been even more of a shock than it already was. Because the top of the stack just moved up $500.

 

But instead, with the way it is, the top of the stack only moved up $100. Isn't that so much easier to swallow?

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

The 70 series used to be more of a mainstream card, when Nvidia had priced their cards at more of a mainstream level. 

Which year was this according to you?

[maartendc]

21 hours ago, Avocado Diaboli said:

«What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.»

 

People really need to stop giving so much of a damn about what something is called. From the way I see it, the 4070 is basically the same in terms of raw gaming performance as the 3080 at a lower price. You also get more memory, less power draw, DLSS 3 and AV1 encoding. Yes, a "70-class card" (stupid moniker) used to cost less. But you're still getting more for less money, performance wise.

 

Maybe I'm being cynical here, but in my estimation a lot of the complaints from people moaning about the name on these cards and the supposed price increase based on that name stem from the fear that they might be considered lower class citizens if they're no longer able/willing to shell out the prices Nvidia are demanding to stay in their caste. "I'm a 70-class customer. That means something. I want to remain a 70-class customer. What will the neighbors think if I can only buy a 60-class GPU?!"

 

You said it yourself, OP, $600 is a middle class income in your country. That already betrays the fear that you don't want to lose that status of middle class. You don't want to be considered poor just because you're not willing to spend a month's salary on a GPU.

 

 

You make a good point. The naming at the end of the day doesn't matter. The product and price matter.

 

But I think people griping about the name actually mean to say they think the product and price are not good, not matching up. People are actually upset that you used to be able to buy a GTX 1070 which delivered performance of two tiers up of past generation (980Ti) at a 70% discount ($649 to $379 MSRP at launch).

 

Now we have equal (or worse at 4K) performance to ONE tier up from last generation (4070 to 3080) at only 17% discount ($699 to $600 MSRP). So you are objectively getting less of a generational boost than used to be the norm for basically decades of GPU launches.

 

When Nvidia's CEO said "Moores law is dead" he basically said "We are not going to keep delivering more performance each generation for the same prices; We are going to increase prices if we are increasing performance". Whether that is because Moores law is actually dead (because the manufacturing of more performance is actually not getting cheaper gen on gen), or because Nvidia DECIDED that it is dead to line their pockets, who knows? But people are upset about it, and rightfully so IMO.

[maartendc]

15 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

The 70 series used to be more of a mainstream card, when Nvidia had priced their cards at more of a mainstream level.

 

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Which year was this according to you?

I must agree that, all else being equal, Nvidia has raised their prices on every tier of card. People claim "but everything has gotten more expensive, inflation".

 

Well, compounded inflation between 2016 (launch of GTX 1070) and 2023 (launch of RTX 4070) in the USA was 19.7%. That means a GTX 1070 of $379 would cost $453 in 2023 dollars. Not $600. So yes, whatever the name they choose to give it, the 70-tier card has increased in price more than inflation, so has the 4090, 4080, etc..

 

So one could argue that a 70-tier card is now "less mainstream" than it was before. If the average salary has only gone up 19.7%, but the GPU's of every tier have gotten 58% ($379 to $600) more expensive... Then objectively less people will be able to afford it, so less mainstream.

 

Source for inflation rate:

https://www.worlddata.info/america/usa/inflation-rates.php

 

You could also just say that PC gaming in general has become less mainstream. Console pricing has not increased as much as it has to build a PC of any performance level. In fact, a PS3 was $599 or $499 depending on the model, so the $499 PS5 launch price is actually CHEAPER than the PS3 was at launch, because it hasn't kept pace with inflation.

[DeerDK]

I've always considered the 60 series to be the mainstream option. It's the one you get if you want to game, but not sploosh all your money into the gaming rig. 

The reasonable option a person who either has one console or one gaming pc chooses. 

So in my book the 70 series was the low tier enthusiast choice. The one people who are "serious" about their gaming but still on a budget choses. 

 

That said, the price creep is still a major issue for me. A part of me is quite tempted by a 4070 but Ive more or less decided to try to vote with my wallet and at least wait to see what AMD brings to the table. 

[Goldilock]

Update: As expected 4070 are not selling so well to the point Nvidia is cutting production and sale on arrival.

 

IMO Nvidia could've gotten away with if they are selling it as RTX 4080.

 

"But it doesn't change the fact the performance is same"

 

I know, GPU are not necessity commodity. Part of buying decision is still ego, with calling it 4080 at least it fulfilled some people's ego as if they are not so far off from the peak. 

[Goldilock]

On 4/18/2023 at 5:39 PM, LAwLz said:

Since when is the 70 series considered mainstream? 

I've always considered the 60 series to be the higher end mainstream stuff, and stuff like the 50 series to be the real volume seller. 

Because it can be powered by bronze 500 watt PSU just fine.

 

From my layman eyes, the move from mainstream to enthusiast is when buying new PSU becomes mandatory.

 

 

[DeerDK]

25 minutes ago, Goldilock said:

Update: As expected 4070 are not selling so well to the point Nvidia is cutting production and sale on arrival.

 

IMO Nvidia could've gotten away with if they are selling it as RTX 4080.

 

"But it doesn't change the fact the performance is same"

 

I know, GPU are not necessity commodity. Part of buying decision is still ego, with calling it 4080 at least it fulfilled some people's ego as if they are not so far off from the peak. 

Doesn't the 4070 and 3080 match pretty much in performance. It would be a very underwhelming generational improvement 

[Goldilock]

4 minutes ago, DeerDK said:

Doesn't the 4070 and 3080 match pretty much in performance. It would be a very underwhelming generational improvement 

Yeah, that would be the case. In fact it would seem as downgrade with only 100 watt lower power consumption.

 

Taking the power draw into account, I can see why 4070 is called 4070 as it stays on 200 watt power draw envelope like 3070. But my comment was initially made on marketing standpoint.

[starsmine]

13 minutes ago, Goldilock said:

Yeah, that would be the case. In fact it would seem as downgrade with only 100 watt lower power consumption.

 

Taking the power draw into account, I can see why 4070 is called 4070 as it stays on 200 watt power draw envelope like 3070. But my comment was initially made on marketing standpoint.

I wouldnt see how it can be called a downgrade. 

[DeerDK]

17 minutes ago, Goldilock said:

Yeah, that would be the case. In fact it would seem as downgrade with only 100 watt lower power consumption.

 

Taking the power draw into account, I can see why 4070 is called 4070 as it stays on 200 watt power draw envelope like 3070. But my comment was initially made on marketing standpoint.

Yeah, but marketing falls flat if the product can't deliver any meaningful improvement. 

Last Gen high performance for lower price and power draw is usually a lower tier card's place. 

 

3 minutes ago, starsmine said:

I wouldnt see how it can be called a downgrade. 

I guess they meant reduction

[LAwLz]

5 hours ago, Goldilock said:

Because it can be powered by bronze 500 watt PSU just fine.

 

From my layman eyes, the move from mainstream to enthusiast is when buying new PSU becomes mandatory.

And how did you conclude that a 500 watt power supply is the line for "mainstream"? 

 

By the way, you can run a 4090 on a 500 watt power supply. Does that mean it's a mainstream card too? 

[Goldilock]

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

And how did you conclude that a 500 watt power supply is the line for "mainstream"? 

Because in my country, moving from 500 watt to 600 or 700 watt means doubling the price. Don't ask me why, but that is the reality. So me and even guys from PC retailers always put the "just want to game" ceiling on 500 watt PSU (which I personally hit as I only have $35 budget for my PSU).

 

14 hours ago, LAwLz said:

By the way, you can run a 4090 on a 500 watt power supply. Does that mean it's a mainstream card too? 

Oh yeah totally possible. But I dare anyone actually recommending it to a buying customer.

[LAwLz]

3 hours ago, Goldilock said:

Because in my country, moving from 500 watt to 600 or 700 watt means doubling the price. Don't ask me why, but that is the reality. So me and even guys from PC retailers always put the "just want to game" ceiling on 500 watt PSU (which I personally hit as I only have $35 budget for my PSU).

Okay, but maybe going to a 500 watt PSU means double the cost compared to a 250 watt PSU. Does that mean the 250 watt PSU is what should be considered mainstream?

I don't get your logic. Why did you choose specifically any a 500 watt PSU and anything that is capable of bring driven by that as "mainstream"?

 

 

3 hours ago, Goldilock said:

Oh yeah totally possible. But I dare anyone actually recommending it to a buying customer.

I wouldn't recommend running a 4070 on a $35 dollar 500W PSU either. So wouldn't that mean it isn't a mainstream card by your criteria? The official recommendation is a 600 watt PSU as minimum.

If the argument is that "hardware that can run on a 500 watt power supply is mainstream" then you have to either admit that the 4090 is a "mainstream card", or the 4070 isn't a mainstream card. Both of them can be run on a 500 watt PSU, but neither of them recommends it according to the official specs.

 

I think a better definition of "mainstream" is, what is considered normal. That's the dictionary definition. 

I'd argue that having a graphics card better than 80% of all people, is not exactly "mainstream". If we were to plot out the distribution of graphics cards used by gamers according to the Steam Hardware survey, the 4070 and other XX70 cards would not be anywhere near the median mean. It would not be within 1 standard deviation from the mean. A XX60 would however be, and that's why I think that's the mainstream card. It would be the upper end of the median within 1 standard deviation. The XX50 would also be a mainstream card, but on the lower end of the median.

 

If you think a XX70 tier card is mainstream then you have a very skewed view of reality. A XX70 series card is a very high-end card, far more powerful than most people have. In fact, the numbers put it at more powerful than roughly 80% of gamers. It's for the top 20%, and this has not changed for many years. It's always been like that.