Massachusetts school hasn't been able to turn their lights off for over a year due to "smart" devices.

[phatmaus]

Lol @LinusTech should love this, given his "fun" experiences with his smart home:

The lights have been on at a Massachusetts school for over a year because no one can turn them off (nbcnews.com)

 

TLDR: When building a new school, the school district went with a "smart" solution, with every single light controlled by a central computer and no physical light-switches. Eventually, the software got corrupted and all the lights defaulted to always on and because the vendor had changed ownership several times, no-one could find the original software to fix the system.

 

 

[Bitter]

I'm still not clear why they couldn't simply have janitorial staff turn the lights off at night via the breaker panel? It doesn't solve the daytime issue but it would have cut the waste by at least 1/2?

[emosun]

3 minutes ago, Bitter said:

I'm still not clear why they couldn't simply have janitorial staff turn the lights off at night via the breaker panel? It doesn't solve the daytime issue but it would have cut the waste by at least 1/2?

chances are somebody did a dumb and tied the lights into the security/climate control/ or some other thing you aren't supposed to turn off.

Now you and i are thinking  "nobody would be that stupid and tie the lights into another system"...... but it wasn't exactly a genius who decided to put zero light switches in a building either.

[OhioYJ]

5 minutes ago, Bitter said:

I'm still not clear why they couldn't simply have janitorial staff turn the lights off at night via the breaker panel? It doesn't solve the daytime issue but it would have cut the waste by at least 1/2?

 

The article says they are turning breakers off in some cases, and in some cases teachers are even unscrewing bulbs or removing lights as possible.  

 

I imagine this isn't entirely possible as I'm sure due to building codes areas still need some lighting, etc. 

[Bitter]

1 minute ago, OhioYJ said:

 

The article says they are turning breakers off in some cases, and in some cases teachers are even unscrewing bulbs or removing lights as possible.  

 

I imagine this isn't entirely possible as I'm sure due to building codes areas still need some lighting, etc. 

At least in my state, the emergency lighting must be on it's own breaker but you can have the rest wired as desired as long as the load per breaker is permissible by electric code. I would assume they'd have a master breaker panel and then a breaker panel per wing or per room (I've seen both in schools I attended) so this is pretty baffling to me. In my elementary school there was a master breaker panel with a map of the school and breakers numbered for each room, then for each hallway section of lighting, etc. In the rooms there was a sub panel in the teachers closet with breakers for lights and outlets individually as well as a single breaker for the whole room. It seems pretty unsafe to not have a breaker panel in the room accessible to the teacher, what if an appliance catches fire or a kid jams scissors in a socket??

[OhioYJ]

13 minutes ago, Bitter said:

It seems pretty unsafe to not have a breaker panel in the room accessible to the teacher, what if an appliance catches fire or a kid jams scissors in a socket??

That would not be typical though (not here). I asked my wife (she is a teacher) about her school, they don't have breakers in their class rooms. I was actually surprised to hear they had one down the hallway.  Typically buildings, commercial or residential aren't built with breaker panels in every room. 

[Bitter]

3 minutes ago, OhioYJ said:

That would not be typical though (not here). I asked my wife (she is a teacher) about her school, they don't have breakers in their class rooms. I was actually surprised to hear they had one down the hallway.  Typically buildings, commercial or residential aren't built with breaker panels in every room. 

Commercial (except for Hotels/Condos) or residential no, but schools at least the ones I've attended at minimum had a master panel and a panel for the wing. The elementary was overall the newest built all at once and it was as I described. The highschool was a mix-match with newer wings having per room as well as a per wing panel and then of course the master panel.

[Ripred]

1 hour ago, phatmaus said:

Lol @LinusTech should love this, given his "fun" experiences with his smart home:

The lights have been on at a Massachusetts school for over a year because no one can turn them off (nbcnews.com)

 

TLDR: When building a new school, the school district went with a "smart" solution, with every single light controlled by a central computer and no physical light-switches. Eventually, the software got corrupted and all the lights defaulted to always on and because the vendor had changed ownership several times, no-one could find the original software to fix the system.

 

 

Dummies 

[wseaton]

I do lighting systems on the side...when I'm not busy.

 

I built a laser show for a large bowling alley, and the system had to be run as idiot proof as possible. I was running it with Crestron, but got tired of having to learn their code and have to wrote their code just to turn a damn light on and off. Screw that.

 

I linked everything with power strips running 12volt relays to kick them on and off. This made things very robust and simple since a 12volt signal could be sent to turn on large groups of devices that took a lot of current. I then run those 12volt supplies to digital lamp timers. Once programmed, the entire system was automated like those kiddie boat rides at an amusement park. Very, very reliable since it was analog.

 

Trickiest thing to set up was atmospherics. Lasers and high end lights require smoke / haze, and that sucks to work with. I ended up modifying regular 1200watt smoke machines to do the job as hybrid hazers / fazers. However, the tricky part was it took exactly 10 minutes of duty cycle to fog the place up perfectly. Running them longer than that made things too dense.

 

I soon got tired of the lamp timers and started using some generic smart plugs. I could sit in my living room and program the schedules for the entire venue on my android. That is, until a software update with their app corrupted all their schedules. The lights were no big deal, but when the foggers would kick on and stay on for an hour the entire building, including the kitchen was full of smoke. More amusing was I use Froggy's cotton candy scent in the foggers, which smells like a combination of superman ice cream and waffle cones. That made the place smell like an ice cream shop next to a dunkin douts. Customers actually thought it was cool and food sales went up because it made people hungry. Employees got pretty annoyed at the stuck foggers though and having to tell people they don't sell donuts.

 

Oddly automation technology like this is either totally essoteric and requires a programmer (Crestron) or is consumer smart phone junk. Not much in between. You would think there are simple and reliable commercial systems that only work with local wifi and local cloud, but there isn't that I've found.

[seanondemand]

I got a live feed of the Massachusetts school’s meeting about the issue:

 

[Lurking]

Manually turning lights off is a safet hazard. These are commercial buildings, not a home.  When people are present (even the ones without access to the breaker), lights have to be on. Also need emergency lights to turn on upon powerloss and fire alarm activation. Also need daylight and occupancy control (energy code).  many lights also need manual dimming and turning off. So those "the janitor turns the lights on" ideas don't work.

 

What can be done is use line voltage control by motion and photo sensors and 0-10V dimming. Those are NOT proprietary and you can use replacement parts from many manufacturers. And one sensor or dimmer only controls one zone. I imagine a classroom would have 3 zones (like to dim down by the TV while keeping the back of the room bright). If for some reason one zone acts up, the problem is contained to that one zone. All easy peasy and any electrician can fix it, and in 20 years you still can replace parts. This is what I design.

 

The problem is, sales reps talk owners and architects into fancy digital and central systems. Those require all proprietary part that won't be supported in 5 years. If you need assistance to solve an issue, you pay a $4K/day guy to come from 3 hours away to help you. After support ends (or in case of this school the manufacturer changes), you basically buy a new control system. It's basically Dell, but for buildings. The reps that sell those can't sleep at night because they have to laugh so hard about all the suckers buying that crap. 

 

[Bitter]

1 hour ago, Lurking said:

Manually turning lights off is a safet hazard. These are commercial buildings, not a home.  When people are present (even the ones without access to the breaker), lights have to be on. Also need emergency lights to turn on upon powerloss and fire alarm activation. Also need daylight and occupancy control (energy code).  many lights also need manual dimming and turning off. So those "the janitor turns the lights on" ideas don't work.

 

What can be done is use line voltage control by motion and photo sensors and 0-10V dimming. Those are NOT proprietary and you can use replacement parts from many manufacturers. And one sensor or dimmer only controls one zone. I imagine a classroom would have 3 zones (like to dim down by the TV while keeping the back of the room bright). If for some reason one zone acts up, the problem is contained to that one zone. All easy peasy and any electrician can fix it, and in 20 years you still can replace parts. This is what I design.

 

The problem is, sales reps talk owners and architects into fancy digital and central systems. Those require all proprietary part that won't be supported in 5 years. If you need assistance to solve an issue, you pay a $4K/day guy to come from 3 hours away to help you. After support ends (or in case of this school the manufacturer changes), you basically buy a new control system. It's basically Dell, but for buildings. The reps that sell those can't sleep at night because they have to laugh so hard about all the suckers buying that crap. 

 

Uh I know I haven't been in school for a while but we certainly turned whole classroom lights off for movies and stuff. Larger rooms might have two switches, like the auditorium style computer labs or the machine shop, but most classrooms had one switch for the lights.

[Lurking]

41 minutes ago, Bitter said:

Uh I know I haven't been in school for a while but we certainly turned whole classroom lights off for movies and stuff. Larger rooms might have two switches, like the auditorium style computer labs or the machine shop, but most classrooms had one switch for the lights.

A classroom has a door and that is where the switches are. So if you enter, you can turn the lights on and the ability to turn off the lights doesn't create a hazard. The auditorium or classrooms with multiple doors would have some light zone switches at any of the doors to avoid having to walk through the dark to turn on the lights. In a hallway, that is not the case since you couldn't possible have light switches everywhere and you also would not want students have access to them and play pranks by shutting down school. So motion sensor is the only valid option (assuming you want to save energy and not run them 24/7). In hallways with switches, someone at some point would be in the dark (danger). Especially if like in that school, there is no switch, but the breaker used. For lighting control, a school isn't totally different from an office building where you have offices with manual lighting control (switches, dimmers etc.), but not in hallways. 

 

I know, there sure are places that don't adhere to that depending on the time they were built. There also isn't very much code enforcement. There are commercial locations (like movie theaters, fire stations) that will require some other methods to ensure lighting control works satisfactorily, while being SAFE. But a school is pretty straight forward (except in this case, apparently). 

 

I'm just trying to demonstrate that that school couldn't just have done it like in a home. But that commercial lighting can be maintainable, safe and energy-efficient. Maintainability (and consequently energy-efficiency) was not accomplished in that school.

 

 

[wseaton]

3 hours ago, Lurking said:

Manually turning lights off is a safet hazard. These are commercial buildings, not a home.  When people are present (even the ones without access to the breaker), lights have to be on. Also need emergency lights to turn on upon powerloss and fire alarm activation. Also need daylight and occupancy control (energy code).  many lights also need manual dimming and turning off. So those "the janitor turns the lights on" ideas don't work.

 

What can be done is use line voltage control by motion and photo sensors and 0-10V dimming. Those are NOT proprietary and you can use replacement parts from many manufacturers. And one sensor or dimmer only controls one zone. I imagine a classroom would have 3 zones (like to dim down by the TV while keeping the back of the room bright). If for some reason one zone acts up, the problem is contained to that one zone. All easy peasy and any electrician can fix it, and in 20 years you still can replace parts. This is what I design.

 

The problem is, sales reps talk owners and architects into fancy digital and central systems. Those require all proprietary part that won't be supported in 5 years. If you need assistance to solve an issue, you pay a $4K/day guy to come from 3 hours away to help you. After support ends (or in case of this school the manufacturer changes), you basically buy a new control system. It's basically Dell, but for buildings. The reps that sell those can't sleep at night because they have to laugh so hard about all the suckers buying that crap. 

 

 

I did a massive custom retrofit of half a dozen 12x24 ' faux skybays that were running 8' T12 fixtures about 6 years ago. I used Philips Fortimo sticks built onto frames and mounted in the sky bays all modular.

 

Philips tried the same stunt you describe. They want you to buy their kit and lock into their ecosystem. Nice try. Current is current and forward voltage is forward voltage.I took the specs from each of the 24" sticks and designed a totally open loop system with generic Meanwell drivers. 1-10 volt dimming to the drivers controls the rest. Anything can be replaced easily with off the shelf parts.. The cost savings was astronomical. I hit the same lumen levels as the T12 tubes at less than 1/3 the energy use. 

 

Local lighting company wanted 5x the price for a proprietary system and much lower efficacy. 

 

Motion detect or 1-10 PWM doesn't need a $3000 controller. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:52 PM, Bitter said:

It seems pretty unsafe to not have a breaker panel in the room accessible to the teacher, what if an appliance catches fire or a kid jams scissors in a socket??

tf how are you going to get scissors into a us socket??
Like ive got a spare outlet and a multimeter and several scissors and i wasn't able to get continuity when i was trying to

And if something is on fire you dont stay in the room at all, everyone out as soon as you notice, thats how teachers are trained to handle fires. 

[Helpful Tech Witch]

4 hours ago, Lurking said:

Manually turning lights off is a safet hazard. These are commercial buildings, not a home.  When people are present (even the ones without access to the breaker), lights have to be on.

schools definitly are able to have light switches in the rooms? like ive been at who knows how many schools for events and just going through the school system and theres light switches in all of them

[Lurking]

1 hour ago, wseaton said:

 

I did a massive custom retrofit of half a dozen 12x24 ' faux skybays that were running 8' T12 fixtures about 6 years ago. I used Philips Fortimo sticks built onto frames and mounted in the sky bays all modular.

 

Philips tried the same stunt you describe. They want you to buy their kit and lock into their ecosystem. Nice try. Current is current and forward voltage is forward voltage.I took the specs from each of the 24" sticks and designed a totally open loop system with generic Meanwell drivers. 1-10 volt dimming to the drivers controls the rest. Anything can be replaced easily with off the shelf parts.. The cost savings was astronomical. I hit the same lumen levels as the T12 tubes at less than 1/3 the energy use. 

 

Local lighting company wanted 5x the price for a proprietary system and much lower efficacy. 

 

Motion detect or 1-10 PWM doesn't need a $3000 controller. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some systems use a local controller with 0-10V dimming. So you at least can use standard drivers with standard drivers or ballasts. There are some, that actually require proprietary drivers....

 

My employer has 150+ buildings and we probably have at least one of each major control system of all vintages. It takes mechanics forever to find replacement, address them and so on. Some require proprietary software, other require IP addresses (of course, IT keeps changing them all the time and then the whole system disappears). 10 years later that software doesn't run on modern computers and the manufacturer already moved to the next system 5 years ago. 

 

People here use Alexa to control lights and think they are great toys.. But the average home user is used to just buy a new systems next year when the new version comes out and doesn't mind trouble shooting. 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Lurking

[Bitter]

1 hour ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

tf how are you going to get scissors into a us socket??
Like ive got a spare outlet and a multimeter and several scissors and i wasn't able to get continuity when i was trying to

And if something is on fire you dont stay in the room at all, everyone out as soon as you notice, thats how teachers are trained to handle fires. 

Like this? Straight into the Hot with 14ohms continuity to the plug end from the socket. That's even a larger adult pair of scissors, kids scissors are much smaller and easier to insert I'm sure. You only need to hit hot to make yourself live, then anything ground is a shock path. Touch the outlet plate, another kid, etc. Only takes 100-200ma at 120V to fib a heart in a few seconds, you need 500-1000ohm load to create that current yes which is pretty low but kids are wet grubby mouthy gross things that are more likely to have low electrical resistance.

https://incompliancemag.com/article/body-resistance-a-review/ And you can see that body size is a direct correlation to fib current needed, smaller body substantially smaller fib current, as low as 20ma it seems for a very small child which means hitting lethal current from a live poke is pretty possible.