Two options for home audio

[8tg]

So right now I have this:

Fairly plain and simple, Onkyo C7030 cd player plugged into Klipsch R41PM powered bookshelf speakers.

I like the simplicity of the setup, but I want to upgrade this and wanted some component suggestions.

 

I want to swap to some more proper speakers and then use the R41PM’s for my pc. Specifically RP-8000F-II’s and an SPL-150SW subwoofer

Thats just 2.1 I can do out of a basic receiver so I’m looking at an Onkyo TX-NR6100.

So I think this is the step to take this setup from “a cd player with some bookshelf speakers” to something a bit more substantial, allowing me to plug in multiple components at once using something other than an AV switcher (although that works really well)

 

Then there’s an alternative where I could do all this but then instead of a receiver, I’d get a speaker amp and no receiver, and run audio out of my pc with its HT Omega Eclaro and run 4.1 or 5.1 with a center speaker added, using those 8000F’s, a sub and my 41PM’s as side speakers. 

But then that can also take away some source simplicity as then my computer basically becomes a receiver and while I don’t mind playing my music library digitally like that, it’s probably not ideal.

Which is why that idea seems kind of dumb to me but would allow for proper surround sound without getting too complicated.

 

Or just go all out and do dedicated 5.1 by doing the receiver and a speaker amp.

The receiver on its own will do the speakers in 2.1 without an amp but for adding more speakers an amp will be best.

 

Let me know your thoughts, I think the first idea of just getting a receiver + better speakers + a subwoofer is probably the best choice. But if there are some other options out there I’m not thinking of I’d like to hear about them.

[johnt]

I actually took the time to read your entire post, so I hope you take my suggestions to heart... I am not trying to be mean.

 

1) Ditch the subwoofer. They are a terrible idea for music. Speakers with larger woofers are better and the bass is spot on compared to the nauseating nuances you have to take into consideration with a subwoofer. They are for home theaters, not music. A lot of people will disagree with me, but I've spent enough on audio to know by now.

 

2) Move away from Klipsch. They don't make good speakers no matter how cool they look, and how much they pay youtubers. You gotta understand youtubers are not audio people. So they get a pair of Klipsch to review for surround sound and it has the looks, noise comes out, and it has the MSPR to match, and they think it's proper. It isn't. They are fatiguing and extremely unsmooth.

 

3) Have a look at SVS, Power Sound Audio, JTR, and even KEF. Unfortunately for Power Sound Audio, they don't make ported speakers so you will have to get a subwoofer. Hsu Research is also in the same boat. But take a look at these: https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-tower?variant=9532245443 Start with this and then see if you need a subwoofer.

 

4) The receiver you've selected is very, very, very budget focused. Look at a Denon receiver from ages ago. Not because it's technically superior in sound quality, probably similar, but it has a lot more features that are important to grow into. Look used for a Denon X3200 or better/newer (like X3300, X3400, X4200, X4300, and so on...). They will serve you much better in the long run. I also encourage a dedicated amplifier and the Denon X3200 and up come with pre-outs that you can use for an amplifier. Here is an ad from ebay for an X3300 for $170+75 for shipping, so $250ish. Which is a JOKE compared to how much this unit cost brand new $1,500+) https://www.ebay.com/itm/403995208903?epid=215707095&hash=item5e0ffdacc7:g:NbUAAOSw2Rpjck58

 

5) I would not hesitate to buy prosumer and higher end audio gear used. Most of the time these products are purchased by people who want to care for their devices and they are selling because they bought something better... it's a win/win for you A few scratches on heavy gear is nothing to be concerned with. This can be a cost effective way to upgrade your speakers without forking over a ton of money for advertising, shipping, insurance, potential warranty claims, shelf space, etc.

 

[8tg]

1 minute ago, johnt said:

1) Ditch the subwoofer. They are a terrible idea for music. Speakers with larger woofers are better and the bass is spot on compared to the nauseating nuances you have to take into consideration with a subwoofer. They are for home theaters, not music. A lot of people will disagree with me, but I've spent enough on audio to know by now.

I get what you’re saying, I think I would have it just for the fun factor, I have an album just called “hardcore bass” and it’s terrible and I love it. But my normal higher end audio stuff are some Thieaudio Monarch MKII’s which are higher end reference iems with a very balanced and flat sound signature I do prefer over something bass heavy.

3 minutes ago, johnt said:

2) Move away from Klipsch. They don't make good speakers no matter how cool they look, and how much they pay youtubers. You gotta understand youtubers are not audio people. So they get a pair of Klipsch to review for surround sound and it has the looks, noise comes out, and it has the MSPR to match, and they think it's proper. It isn't. They are fatiguing and extremely unsmooth.

The brand choice here is more of a matter of convenience, I can get them on Amazon, there’s a lot of reviews and documentation, and it’s mostly just what I know. I don’t know a lot about home audio hardware. I’m open to suggestions for other speakers in the same general market segment.

4 minutes ago, johnt said:

3) Have a look at SVS, Power Sound Audio, JTR, and even KEF. Unfortunately for Power Sound Audio, they don't make ported speakers so you will have to get a subwoofer. Hsu Research is also in the same boat. But take a look at these: https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-tower?variant=9532245443 Start with this and then see if you need a subwoofer.

I’ll look into them, I’ve heard a little about SVS in the past.

5 minutes ago, johnt said:

4) The receiver you've selected is very, very, very budget focused. Look at a Denon receiver from ages ago. Not because it's technically superior in sound quality, probably similar, but it has a lot more features that are important to grow into. Look used for a Denon X3200 or better/newer (like X3300, X3400, X4200, X4300, and so on...). They will serve you much better in the long run. I also encourage a dedicated amplifier and the Denon X3200 and up come with pre-outs that you can use for an amplifier. Here is an ad from ebay for an X3300 for $170+75 for shipping, so $250ish. Which is a JOKE compared to how much this unit cost brand new $1,500+) https://www.ebay.com/itm/403995208903?epid=215707095&hash=item5e0ffdacc7:g:NbUAAOSw2Rpjck58

I went for the Onkyo because it’s a modern receiver brand new and would match my cd player. Even if it’s not the best overall choice as I’m sure I can find better receivers for less money used, but in a boat with an issue I had with the CD players before I’m just aiming myself towards buying something new.

I have some nicer older components but just the repair needs and potential for faults isn’t worth it to me over something I can get a replacement for quickly through a seller. I’ll look into other receivers, I’ve debated going much higher end than that but my needs don’t seem to justify it in that really I’ll be playing CDs and plugging my Walkman into this for higher resolution files.

Im down for 1000$+ on a modern receiver, but I feel a lot of the upper options from Onkyo or Sony that you can get new like that without issue are the same as their mid tier models but adding a few features. Like the TX-RZ50 is focusing that 9.2 home theater setup rather than other features on audio quality or speaker power outputs.

10 minutes ago, johnt said:

5) I would not hesitate to buy prosumer and higher end audio gear used. Most of the time these products are purchased by people who want to care for their devices and they are selling because they bought something better... it's a win/win for you A few scratches on heavy gear is nothing to be concerned with. This can be a cost effective way to upgrade your speakers without forking over a ton of money for advertising, shipping, insurance, potential warranty claims, shelf space, etc.

I’m not against buying used at all, and I understand high end items are going to be well taken care of, it’s just outside of the scope of what I know.

I can go all day about buying used gpus, what to look for, how to fix common problems, maintenance both physical and cosmetic. But I know that well.

I do not know audio hardware like this very well. I have to replace the belts in my cassette player to fix a random stopping issue related to the tape counter and figuring out

1) that the issue was the tape counter

2) that the tape counter is belt driven

3) how to take apart the assembly

4) what belts to use

5) how to tune the system for even stereo output and such

Took me a few days to figure out, piecing together research and asking questions. I’ll figure it out but for right now I’m just not that confident in equipment where I might run into some small issue and not immediately know how to fix it.

 

 

 

 

[Psittac]

I haven't read other's responses because I'd prefer to give my thoughts without trying to contradict anyone.

 

First of all why do you want surround sound?  If you are using it only for music listening there is little to no use for surround and 2.1 is all that you need.  There is SOME 5.1 audio tracks out there but the chances of what you like being available in such a format is so slim that IMO it isn't worth it.

 

Second, if you plan on gaming in surround the same is to be expected, in that most games aren't to my knowledge going to offer a surround experience.  At least that was the way it was 6-7 years ago when I changed from my HT setup to a more traditional desktop setup.

 

If I have dissuaded you from pursuing surround sound then I would recommend some sort of power amp and a dac at which point there are many options.  I've been planning a listening area this year when my basement is finally finished.  I have two options for amps currently, the first being the Emotiva BasX A-100 (superseded by the Emotiva BasX A2M) or the Crown XLi1500 which I got to ensure power requirements aren't a problem for any future solution, you could go for the XLi800 or some similar power amp.  As a signal source I have decided on a DAC with BT on it, namely the SMSL SU-9.  I haven't decided on towers yet.  Also I plan on figuring out a way to hook up multiple single ended headphone amplifiers but that's for later. I could also recommend something similar to the Denon PMA-600NE because it will still allow your optical transport to be included in the overall solution while acting as a dac BT receiver and power amplifier.  I would double check that it offers an output for a subwoofer.

 

If you're still set on an AVR I don't see why you would need an amp for the other channels as they're designed to run multiple speakers.

 

Anyways that's my $.02

[worstalentscout]

for 2.1 or 5.1 system that sounds great for music and AV................get the legendary NHT SuperZero satellite speakers with their matching sub...............or get 2 pieces of the SuperCenter as the satellite speakers............

[cmndr]

Some general advice

1. Klipsch is usually stupidly expensive
2. Either go towers with no sub or go with BETTER bookshelves with 1-2 subs
3. Consider a used AVR. I got an x3200w for $200 recently. It'll do just about anything most people need. If you ever want more, you can flip it at around cost. 

looking at your budget you're spending around $3300. 

Budget AVR off CL or FB Market $200 (or get a Denon s760h from costco, it's as low as $300 and often $400). 
Polk R200 Bookshelf speakers - $550-600 on sale/refurbished - https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/polk_r100/ - https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/polk-reserve-r200-spinorama-and-measurements-a-really-nice-surprise.23502/
??? Stands - this doesn't matter a ton - $100ish
2x SVS SB2000 (non-pro) $1000
$500ish worth of sound panels and room treatment

Bookshelf speakers are easier to position. Getting the tweeter directed at your ears is pretty critical. 
The two subwoofers would go in somewhat asymmetrical positions in the room, each sub would sufffer from sound waves reflecting off walls canceling each other out, two together usually results on much smoother frequency responses. two also makes it harder to pick out where the subwoofers are and that's nice if you need to set a high crossover to combat room modes (8' ceiling means a gap in the sound at ~120Hz unless you have multiple dubs, similar story for 10' walls at 100Hz or 70Hz at 14')

Sound panels and diffusion panels go around the first reflection point. 
If you want surround you can slap on a pair of R100s and still be budget neutral vs what you'd picked out. 


Ideally the speakers are a 2+ feet away from the walls (exact amount depends on room dimensions). If you go with surrounds and can't do that, consider on wall speakers meant to be against the wall (ELAC OW4.2 for example). 

 

Quote

First of all why do you want surround sound?  If you are using it only for music listening there is little to no use for surround and 2.1 is all that you need.  There is SOME 5.1 audio tracks out there but the chances of what you like being available in such a format is so slim that IMO it isn't worth it.

It can improve the sound stage. It's definitely a case where 50-95% of the sound comes from the L+R at any given moment. Similar story for front-height speakers(mostly improved sound stage at the front) or top-front speakers (does atmos stuff). 

 

Quote

2 pieces of the SuperCenter as the satellite speakers

Many center speakers are designed to NOT be tall and they have a lot of design tradeoffs to be short so they can fit under things. The centers are often worse than the regular bookshelf variants. This looks like an MTM design which is the worst possible choice for a center. You get comb filtering from the two woofers. The two woofers fire at the same time (but half as loud). Some of the frequencies cancel each other out and others double up. Some 2.5 way designs are OK. Some 3 way designs are OK. In most instances you're looking at $300-500ish before you get to a decent center that helps more than it hurts from a sound quality perspective. 

[Derkoli]

On 1/1/2023 at 3:01 AM, 8tg said:

I want to swap to some more proper speakers and then use the R41PM’s for my pc. Specifically RP-8000F-II’s and an SPL-150SW subwoofer

Thats just 2.1 I can do out of a basic receiver so I’m looking at an Onkyo TX-NR6100.

If you're just doing 2.1, don't go for an AVR.

 

Spending 3k on a 2.1 channel setup is a much much better idea than spending 3k on a 5.1 setup. Less is absolutely more.

 

Personally, with this budget, I'd get a 2 channel receiver plus 2 standmount speakers, with some good cables and stands.

 

For about 3k, you can easily get a pair of Kef R3 speakers, plus a Marantz PM6007 receiver, which will sound brilliant together. I've heard Kef R3's before, and they're amazing.

 

You then either feed the Marantz analogue signal from a DAC, or give it an optical/coaxial signal to deal with by itself. It can also output to a subwoofer if you add one in the future.

 

Then you can just sell the marantz, buy an AVR, add some speakers, then you have a 5.1 setup if you want it in the future.

 

 

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/kef-r3-series-passive-3-way-bookshelf-speakers-pair-black-gloss/6309092.p?skuId=6309092

 

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/marantz-pm6007-155w-2-ch-stereo-integrated-amplifier-black/6510171.p?skuId=6510171

 

 

On 1/1/2023 at 3:38 AM, johnt said:

1) Ditch the subwoofer. They are a terrible idea for music. Speakers with larger woofers are better and the bass is spot on compared to the nauseating nuances you have to take into consideration with a subwoofer. They are for home theaters, not music. A lot of people will disagree with me, but I've spent enough on audio to know by now.

Ehhh, if you have a good quality subwoofer, place it properly, integrate it properly, then they absolutely improve speakers.

[cmndr]

11 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

Spending 3k on a 2.1 channel setup is a much much better idea than spending 3k on a 5.1 setup. Less is absolutely more.

At the 3K for a 2.1 set up with 0 expectation of expanding to surround... you're looking at Genelec territory. 

Though I will say decent amp/AVR + decent speakers and room treatment (includes measuring microphone and positioning) usually beats spending $$$$ chasing after the last 0.00001% on a speaker/amp while ignoring the fact that a good chunk of the sound you're getting is room reflections. 

[johnt]

2 hours ago, Derkoli said:

good quality subwoofer, place it properly, integrate it properly

lol yes this is why I suggest ditching it. you absolutely must get into calibration with a dedicated subwoofer, which requires a main seating position and possibly additional points around it, then you have standing wave issues... YOU WILL HAVE STANDING WAVE ISSUES and need thick, beefy bass traps in the corners and general wall treatments. The calibration has its own set of limitations and quality of microphone and software, version of calibration software... you end up with a $2,500 receiver for a $900 subwoofer for this op. And like one location in the entire room that sounds good. Forget it.

 

I've done all this in my theater and it was worth it. I could never go back to watching big budget movies with uncalibrated speakers in an untreated room. But it's not worth the effort for music.

 

And a good quality subwoofer doesn't have a Klipsch logo on it. I couldn't convince the op of that to begin with. His budget is huge to waste it on a name brand.

 

I would second the KEF's you recommended. The uni-Q array is insanely good for music.

 

Edit: I own the KEF LS50's and use them at my computer and they are also an excellent pair of speakers.

[cmndr]

3 hours ago, johnt said:

lol yes this is why I suggest ditching it. you absolutely must get into calibration with a dedicated subwoofer, which requires a main seating position and possibly additional points around it, then you have standing wave issues... YOU WILL HAVE STANDING WAVE ISSUES and need thick, beefy bass traps in the corners and general wall treatments. The calibration has its own set of limitations and quality of microphone and software, version of calibration software... you end up with a $2,500 receiver for a $900 subwoofer for this op. And like one location in the entire room that sounds good. Forget it.

 

You end up with similar issues with 2 towers speakers as well, the usual "fix" is that they often get ignored. Some upsides - having two sources for bass means you're less likely to run into issues with room modes... but ideal placement for stereo positioning seldom overlaps with ideal positioning for bass. 

https://www.aperionaudio.com/blogs/aperion-audio-blog/dual-subwoofer-placement-for-your-home

In my set up I actually have my subwoofers diagonally across from the listening position with the phases tweaked. Next step is fiddling with a miniDSP+Dirac when I get the time. 

If I were crazier I'd actually get another 2 subwoofers but at this point I think there's not much of a need since even without the DSP I'm getting relatively even bass response in the MLP. 

 

This covers a bunch of placement stuff. 

[worstalentscout]

with so many US speaker brands selling direct to customers...............they can avoid crappy Chinese-owned UK speakers.............

[johnt]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:58 PM, worstalentscout said:

with so many US speaker brands selling direct to customers...............they can avoid crappy Chinese-owned UK speakers.............

So suggest something lol

[worstalentscout]

6 hours ago, johnt said:

So suggest something lol

 

i assume you're in the US ?..............there are brands like Ascend Acoustics............Salk...........Tekton...........Fritz...........any of them will be easily better than those ''normal'' UK speakers................the good UK speakers (ATC, PMC, Neat, Harbeth) are too expensive for their performance level..........

[Derkoli]

On 1/5/2023 at 9:26 PM, johnt said:

lol yes this is why I suggest ditching it. you absolutely must get into calibration with a dedicated subwoofer, which requires a main seating position and possibly additional points around it, then you have standing wave issues... YOU WILL HAVE STANDING WAVE ISSUES and need thick, beefy bass traps in the corners and general wall treatments. The calibration has its own set of limitations and quality of microphone and software, version of calibration software... you end up with a $2,500 receiver for a $900 subwoofer for this op. And like one location in the entire room that sounds good. Forget it.

Good point lol

 

On 1/5/2023 at 9:26 PM, johnt said:

Edit: I own the KEF LS50's and use them at my computer and they are also an excellent pair of speakers.

IMO, the Kef R3 is just a better LS50.

 

On 1/5/2023 at 9:26 PM, johnt said:

And a good quality subwoofer doesn't have a Klipsch logo on it.

I agree.

 

I haven't heard one before, but based on some reviews, I imagine they hardly sound agile enough for music or movies.

 

On 1/5/2023 at 8:16 PM, cmndr said:

At the 3K for a 2.1 set up with 0 expectation of expanding to surround... you're looking at Genelec territory. 

Honestly, getting a pair of active speakers could work too. Then you just get more speakers and an AVR with more pre-outs to upgrade to surround sound in the future.

[8tg]

After reading through a lot of this what I’ve decided on is to sort of scale down. I’m going to get one of the nicer Onkyo receivers to go with my cd player and potentially more components at once, as of right now I either use one component at a time or have an AV switcher instead of a receiver since I have powered speakers.

 

Then I’ll be getting a set of 2 decent speakers after researching further into what some good speakers are for the power output of whatever receiver I end up getting. Right now I’m looking at the NR7100 receiver and a set of Triangle Esprit Titus speakers as it’s what a lot of people are suggesting across the internet for high end bookshelf speakers versus standing speakers but that’s still up for debate.

 

This is still an area I’m learning more about so I’ll hold off on anything until I’m certain.

[Derkoli]

23 hours ago, 8tg said:

After reading through a lot of this what I’ve decided on is to sort of scale down. I’m going to get one of the nicer Onkyo receivers to go with my cd player and potentially more components at once, as of right now I either use one component at a time or have an AV switcher instead of a receiver since I have powered speakers.

 

Then I’ll be getting a set of 2 decent speakers after researching further into what some good speakers are for the power output of whatever receiver I end up getting. Right now I’m looking at the NR7100 receiver and a set of Triangle Esprit Titus speakers as it’s what a lot of people are suggesting across the internet for high end bookshelf speakers versus standing speakers but that’s still up for debate.

 

This is still an area I’m learning more about so I’ll hold off on anything until I’m certain.

Those speakers would be a great bet, but I do think they deserve some better amplification than an Onkyo receiver.

 

Also, ignore power output. The speakers will use 5-10W during normal listening. You don't need tonnes of power.

[cmndr]

On 1/7/2023 at 8:40 PM, 8tg said:

After reading through a lot of this what I’ve decided on is to sort of scale down. I’m going to get one of the nicer Onkyo receivers to go with my cd player and potentially more components at once, as of right now I either use one component at a time or have an AV switcher instead of a receiver since I have powered speakers.

 

Then I’ll be getting a set of 2 decent speakers after researching further into what some good speakers are for the power output of whatever receiver I end up getting. Right now I’m looking at the NR7100 receiver and a set of Triangle Esprit Titus speakers as it’s what a lot of people are suggesting across the internet for high end bookshelf speakers versus standing speakers but that’s still up for debate.

 

This is still an area I’m learning more about so I’ll hold off on anything until I’m certain.

unless you're trying to fill a HUGE room or listen at unhealthy levels, pretty much any not awful AVR will be fine. 

$200-300
Emotiva B1+ 
JBL 530
Polk ES15 (close to 200ish on sale)
KEF Q150

Next step up is something like 
Polk R100
Polk R200
KEF Q350

After that it's $$$ into subwoofers (Basically SVS, Rel, Hsu, Outlaw, etc.)

 

If you're trying to stay lowish on costs... KBL 530 or Q150 with no subwoofer ought to work fairly well. 

 

[worstalentscout]

3 hours ago, cmndr said:

unless you're trying to fill a HUGE room or listen at unhealthy levels, pretty much any not awful AVR will be fine. 

$200-300
Emotiva B1+ 
JBL 530
Polk ES15 (close to 200ish on sale)
KEF Q150

Next step up is something like 
Polk R100
Polk R200
KEF Q350

After that it's $$$ into subwoofers (Basically SVS, Rel, Hsu, Outlaw, etc.)

 

If you're trying to stay lowish on costs... KBL 530 or Q150 with no subwoofer ought to work fairly well. 

 

 

US buyers have far better choices of speakers (speaker companies that sell direct to consumers) than crap from Polk and KEF................even brands that sell through the usual retailers like Usher Audio provide far better sound and value.........

[cmndr]

On 1/9/2023 at 4:45 PM, worstalentscout said:

US buyers have far better choices of speakers (speaker companies that sell direct to consumers) than crap from Polk and KEF................even brands that sell through the usual retailers like Usher Audio provide far better sound and value.........

It isn't 2012 anymore. Multiple companies have released new products that are decent improvements over their old lines. DTC companies often cut out middlemen. Mass volume production companies get economies of scale. Avoid Klipsch and you're mostly fine. Even then Klipsch has some improvements in their more recent lines. My guess is that a lot of this comes from a rise in measurements and comparisons across parts. More competition and transparency = better gear. 

 

Polk and KEF on sale aren't bad. I've compared the Emotiva B1+ (DTC as you mentioned) with the ES15 and r200. First two (B1+ vs ES15) are on par, the latter (r200) generally pulls ahead. Haven't heard of Usher Audio. Pricing matters. Emotiva had a spell where the B1+ were hard to get and when you could get them they were $300. The ES15 I got for around $200. The on sale price for the ES15 and JBL 530 is solid if you're trying to get away with not using a subwoofer or you're trying to fight a room null around 50-80Hz and can fiddle with EQ and multiple subwoofers. The Emotiva B1+ drops off around 80Hz so you need a sub and can't fight nulls (read: room with 10'-20' apart walls) just below that as easily. 

ES20 for example - measures reasonably well, has decent WAF and can be wall mounted. Also good bass extension for those without subs. 
ASR Review
This guy has reviewed and measured TONS of gear. 

 

Quote

I can recommend the Polk Signature Elite ES20 as is but hugely so with equalization. You are getting so much performance for so little money.

Here's Erins review of the r100. 
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/polk_r100/
 

Quote

This speaker has good performance and is a really nice looking speaker

Th r100 and r200 are both reasonably flat, respond well to EQ/room correction, have decent bass and their only real deficit is that you need to get them positioned well. 

Here's an r200 vs a Genelec 8341A ($6000 for a pair)

 Forum posts have said that an on sale r200 gets within striking distance of things several times its price. 

 

As far as KEF is concerned... they're somewhat overpriced at MSRP but regularly go on sale at a decent price. Coaxial speakers have their benefits (and downsides) and you can use one as a center channel when lying it on its side, which is nice. Also relatively flat FR and relatively responsive to EQ with reasonable bass extension. 

For a lot of these, as long as you get a decent price, the room will matter a ton. Room+speaker interaction is enough to matter more than brand A vs brand B. Ideally you have EQ (at least for the lower frequencies) and are able to measure and shift the speaker positions properly... along with doing room treatment.