Tipping point with DDR5 frustrations - Give up or try a 2 DIMM board for Core i9 13900K

[Wolverine2349]

I am at a tipping point and near ready to go back to DDR4 with my DDR5 frustrations. Though I really want 6400 CL32 or faster to work as per Gamers Nexus it does provide a gaming boost in CPU limited situations.

Is the bottom line that to get DDR5 at 6000MHZ or faster Samsung or Hynix kit fully stable, is active cooling needed or at least extremely high case airflow so temps never exceed 40-45C something on SPD Hub in HWInfo64?? Or is that not necessarily true??

Would it be worth purchasing a 2 DIMM board like the MSI Z690 Unify X and could that help a lot.

Or is it a lost cause if I insist on using a Noctua NH-D15 cooler with 2 140mm fans to cool my CPU which makes space much more limited near RAM and maybe restricts airflow and just better off going back to a good DR4 Samsung B.Die 3600 CL14 kit.

Or is it too hard to say??

 

 

You can see my frustrations in these threads here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Morgan MLGman]

1 minute ago, Wolverine2349 said:

Or is it a lost cause if I insist on using a Noctua NH-D15 cooler with 2 140mm fans to cool my CPU which makes space much more limited near RAM and maybe restricts airflow and just better off going back to a good DR4 Samsung B.Die 3600 CL14 kit.

Actually the NH-D15 may be better than an AIO for good RAM temperatures - with an AIO you have a lot of space, but not as much air moving because there are no fans on the CPU block.

What motherboard and RAM kit do you have? Which DIMM slots are occupied in your setup currently?

[Wolverine2349]

16 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Actually the NH-D15 may be better than an AIO for good RAM temperatures - with an AIO you have a lot of space, but not as much air moving because there are no fans on the CPU block.

What motherboard and RAM kit do you have? Which DIMM slots are occupied in your setup currently?

 

Its a long story of constant frustrations trying so many different things to no avail!!

 

I had first tried a Asus ROG Strix Z790-F. Tried G.Skill Trident Z5 32GB 7200 and 6400 RAM.

 

Both will intermittently freeze and/or BSOD when doing OCCT Large Data Set Variable test at XMP1 and XMP2 settings. SOmetimes a few minute in. Sometimes 40-50 minutes in. Once in a while a full pass, but fails next try.

 

So I thought maybe motherboard was issue, So returned it and replaced it with a Asus Z790 ROG Maximus Hero.

 

Same issues.

 

Even tried down clocking one or both kits to 6200MHz and still same problems.

 

Even purchased a Corsair DDR5 6000MHz CL36 32GB kit. Tried it on the current Asus Z790 Hero and seems more stable, but still will BSOD or freeze running OCCT Large Data Set Variable.

 

I have tried tweaking other settings I cannot remember what but based on advice on overclock.net and Intel reddit and still same problems.

 

I am not sure if Asus just has bad boards or if 4 DIMM boards in general are just bad for any XMP DDR5 at 6000MHz or greater or if my CPU has a bad IMC, I am so frustrated and just want an answer immediately.
 

Its definitely not the RAM as 3 different kits at 3 different kits at XMP are not fully stable on 2 motherboards.

 

Is it likely a bad 13900K?? Or is motherboards more likely the cause.

 

I do notice SPD hub temp on all of the RAM gets to 57C peak and averages 53 to 57C under load on all the ones I have tried.

 

And yes I am using slots A2 and B2 which is what all mobo makers recommend. And I only use 2.

 

It passes OCCT Large Data Set Variable Test with flying colors multiple runs if it is on Auto which of course puts the RAM at the gimped 4800MHZ CL40 SPD speed.

 

I am so frustrated and just want an answer.

[Wolverine2349]

Mods please move this to CPUs, Memory and Motherboards forum. I accidentally put this in the wrong forum.

[Morgan MLGman]

2 minutes ago, Wolverine2349 said:

Mods please move this to CPUs, Memory and Motherboards forum. I accidentally put this in the wrong forum.

Done

Regarding your question, the QVL (Qualified Vendor List) for your current Maximus Hero board seems to say that only those two G.Skill kits are tested by ASUS to work at 7200MHz, both are 2x16GB kits:

Is your G.Skill kit one of those? The part number is very important here: F5-7200J3445G16GX2-TZ5RK or F5-7200J3445G16GX2-TZ5RS

[Wolverine2349]

5 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Done

Regarding your question, the QVL (Qualified Vendor List) for your current Maximus Hero board seems to say that only those two G.Skill kits are tested by ASUS to work at 7200MHz, both are 2x16GB kits:

Is your G.Skill kit one of those? The part number is very important here: F5-7200J3445G16GX2-TZ5RK or F5-7200J3445G16GX2-TZ5RS

 

Its F5-7200J3445G15GX2-TZ5RK

 

So yes it is one of them and I checked the QVL list on mobo site to make sure. I do my homework and am just having awfully terrible luck.

[Morgan MLGman]

5 minutes ago, Wolverine2349 said:

Its F5-7200J3445G15GX2-TZ5RK

 

So yes it is one of them and I checked the QVL list on mobo site to make sure. I do my homework and am just having awfully terrible luck.

I'm sorry for the questions, but I have to assume that people asking for advice here didn't check basic stuff themselves

Regarding 4 DIMM boards - Unless you populate all 4 DIMMs, there should really be no difference between that and a 2 DIMM one. Maybe a slight one, I've found that for highest possible RAM speeds actually 2 DIMM ITX boards work best, but that's a marginal difference.

As for temperatures, highest RAM temps should occur when your graphics card pumps out heat into the case as well. OCCT alone doesn't load the GPU, so these aren't even the highest temps you'd probably see, but I don't think those are the issue in your instance - especially that you mentioned crashes sometimes occur after only a few minutes.

Did you ever encounter a crash on XMP settings anywhere else than OCCT? Like in games?
 

[Wolverine2349]

15 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

I'm sorry for the questions, but I have to assume that people asking for advice here didn't check basic stuff themselves

Regarding 4 DIMM boards - Unless you populate all 4 DIMMs, there should really be no difference between that and a 2 DIMM one. Maybe a slight one, I've found that for highest possible RAM speeds actually 2 DIMM ITX boards work best, but that's a marginal difference.

As for temperatures, highest RAM temps should occur when your graphics card pumps out heat into the case as well. OCCT alone doesn't load the GPU, so these aren't even the highest temps you'd probably see, but I don't think those are the issue in your instance - especially that you mentioned crashes sometimes occur after only a few minutes.

Did you ever encounter a crash on XMP settings anywhere else than OCCT? Like in games?
 

 

 

Yeah I would think so if only using 2 sticks of RAM 2 DIMM or 4 DIMM board should not matter. Do you think issue is a bad CPU or bad mobo. Or is DDR5 just crappy and need low temps to work with stability?

 

Buildzoid does seem to think 2 DIMM boards are superior even if only using 2 sticks.

 

 

[RONOTHAN##]

22 minutes ago, Wolverine2349 said:

 

 

Yeah I would think so if only using 2 sticks of RAM 2 DIMM or 4 DIMM board should not matter. Do you think issue is a bad CPU or bad mobo. Or is DDR5 just crappy and need low temps to work with stability?

 

Buildzoid does seem to think 2 DIMM boards are superior even if only using 2 sticks.

 

 

There is a fairly large difference between them, but at the same time even Buildzoid admitted to changing his mind with that statement about 4 DIMM boards being pointless after seeing ASUS Z690 boards that could actually clock 4 Dimms fairly well, and Z790 boards (specifically the Z790 Master since that's the only one that he's really tested) that could hit 7000MT/s with 2 DIMMs. 

 

For just 6400 you shouldn't need a 2 DIMM board, it's only really for if you're trying to run 7400MT/s or higher. 

 

If you can afford a 2 DIMM board, I probably would get it over a 4 DIMM board unless you need 128GB of RAM, but it really shouldn't be necessary, and odds are there's some BIOS issues you're running into that means you can't hit those speeds. 

[Wolverine2349]

5 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

There is a fairly large difference between them, but at the same time even Buildzoid admitted to changing his mind with that statement about 4 DIMM boards being pointless after seeing ASUS Z690 boards that could actually clock 4 Dimms fairly well, and Z790 boards (specifically the Z790 Master since that's the only one that he's really tested) that could hit 7000MT/s with 2 DIMMs. 

 

For just 6400 you shouldn't need a 2 DIMM board, it's only really for if you're trying to run 7400MT/s or higher. 

 

If you can afford a 2 DIMM board, I probably would get it over a 4 DIMM board unless you need 128GB of RAM, but it really shouldn't be necessary, and odds are there's some BIOS issues you're running into that means you can't hit those speeds. 

 

 

Are my issues probably motherboard BIOS related or RAM temp related?? All the DDR5 I have tried at XMP settings has SPD hub temp reading of 53-57C mostly around 57C per HWInfo64 when under load after 20 to 30 minutes or more assuming it does not freeze or BSOD first. Is that too hot for the RAM to run without random stability issues?? Or should it be fine at those temps at XMP settings??

 

You say odds are some BIOS issues stopping me form running at those speeds?? Like what what those be?? Just a BIOS that I have to wait to be updated?? Would a Z690 board be better than a Z790 since they have more mature BIOS??

 

Would MSI Z790 Carbon be a better bet than the Z790 Hero or any Asus Z790 board in terms of the BIOS and RAM XMP stability??

[RONOTHAN##]

Just now, Wolverine2349 said:

Is that too hot for the RAM to run without random stability issues?? Or should it be fine at those temps at XMP settings??

For XMP stability that should be fine. You can try putting a fan over it to see if it gets more stable, but that's not something I'd expect to cause issues. 

[Wolverine2349]

1 minute ago, RONOTHAN## said:

For XMP stability that should be fine. You can try putting a fan over it to see if it gets more stable, but that's not something I'd expect to cause issues. 

 

 

Yeah which is why it is so frustrating I am having so many issues. Do you think it is an Asus BIOS issue?? Would an MSI board like the Z790 Carbon WiFi be better??

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Wolverine2349 said:

 

 

Yeah which is why it is so frustrating I am having so many issues. Do you think it is an Asus BIOS issue?? Would an MSI board like the Z790 Carbon WiFi be better??

I wouldn't be surprised if this is just an ASUS BIOS issue. I remember a couple other reports of higher speed kits not working on ASUS boards, and haven't seen them about the MSI board, so I'd assume it's likely a bit better, but at the same time I don't know for sure and it could just be that more people buy ASUS boards. I do know for sure the Z790 Master is pretty good for memory support (7200MT/s being pretty easy with an A die kit, and 7000MT/s being possible with an M die kit, both in 2x16GB configs), and it's about the same price as the Z790 Carbon, so it's the safer option, though if you prefer MSI's BIOS or some other feature about the Carbon instead it's still probably good as well, though at the same time the Z690 Unify-X is cheaper than the Carbon and a better board in almost every way (only disadvantages are max memory capacity, no iGPU support if you need QuickSync, and it's got one less rear Type C port) and that definitely does have better memory compatibility, so that would be my pick. 

 

[Wolverine2349]

11 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

I wouldn't be surprised if this is just an ASUS BIOS issue. I remember a couple other reports of higher speed kits not working on ASUS boards, and haven't seen them about the MSI board, so I'd assume it's likely a bit better, but at the same time I don't know for sure and it could just be that more people buy ASUS boards. I do know for sure the Z790 Master is pretty good for memory support (7200MT/s being pretty easy with an A die kit, and 7000MT/s being possible with an M die kit, both in 2x16GB configs), and it's about the same price as the Z790 Carbon, so it's the safer option, though if you prefer MSI's BIOS or some other feature about the Carbon instead it's still probably good as well, though at the same time the Z690 Unify-X is cheaper than the Carbon and a better board in almost every way (only disadvantages are max memory capacity, no iGPU support if you need QuickSync, and it's got one less rear Type C port) and that definitely does have better memory compatibility, so that would be my pick. 

 

 

 

I have avoided Gigabyte boards starting with 12th Gen. I tried a Z690 Master and it was a disaster. CPU speed throttled in Windows under no load even with a fixed clock. So I ended up selling it. I have also heard horror stories about Gigabyte for Intel 12th Gen with RAM stability and such. Maybe it is better with 13th Gen, but do not know.

 

Thats why I am leaning towards MSI as I heard they were miles ahead of Gigabyte on Intel 12th Gen and I would think same would apply to 13th Gen.

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Wolverine2349 said:

I heard they were miles ahead of Gigabyte on Intel 12th Gen and I would think same would apply to 13th Gen.

They were, but Gigabyte caught up well on Z790. Their Z790 boards are in a different league of performance compared to their Z690 boards to the point where their DDR5 boards are actually worth considering this time around. I'd still prefer a Unify-X over the Z790 Master for the price if you don't need 10GbE LAN, but I wouldn't avoid Gigabyte's Z790 lineup either. 

[Morgan MLGman]

1 hour ago, Wolverine2349 said:

 

 

Yeah I would think so if only using 2 sticks of RAM 2 DIMM or 4 DIMM board should not matter. Do you think issue is a bad CPU or bad mobo. Or is DDR5 just crappy and need low temps to work with stability?

 

Buildzoid does seem to think 2 DIMM boards are superior even if only using 2 sticks.

 

 

This is a fairly new platform, so it may need a few BIOS updates to work properly. I wouldn't say that the temps are the issue in your case. It's either the BIOS not being mature enough or you just got a really unlucky IMC in your 13900K.

[Wolverine2349]

3 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

This is a fairly new platform, so it may need a few BIOS updates to work properly. I wouldn't say that the temps are the issue in your case. It's either the BIOS not being mature enough or you just got a really unlucky IMC in your 13900K.

 

 

Yeah which is quite surprising cause I thought Raptor Lake was a nice refinement of Alder Lake with better binning more L3 cache and slight IPC bump. I would think Z790 should have been easy to get DDR5 running with stability. Boy has it been wrong and it has been a nightmare for me thus far.

[Morgan MLGman]

20 minutes ago, Wolverine2349 said:

Yeah which is quite surprising cause I thought Raptor Lake was a nice refinement of Alder Lake with better binning more L3 cache and slight IPC bump. I would think Z790 should have been easy to get DDR5 running with stability. Boy has it been wrong and it has been a nightmare for me thus far.

Considering AM5 starts having problems above 6400MHz, Raptor Lake still isn't that bad in memory speeds, but I would give the platform some time to mature - check out new BIOS releases as they come out, they may improve memory compatibility. Technically it's all overclocking, so it's not guaranteed to work.

[Wolverine2349]

13 minutes ago, Morgan MLGman said:

Considering AM5 starts having problems above 6400MHz, Raptor Lake still isn't that bad in memory speeds, but I would give the platform some time to mature - check out new BIOS releases as they come out, they may improve memory compatibility. Technically it's all overclocking, so it's not guaranteed to work.

 

 

Which is bizarre because they advertise XMP RAM speeds making you think it should all work lol even though it is overclocking.

[Heliian]

2 hours ago, Wolverine2349 said:

checked the QVL list on mobo site to make sure

Fantastic! 

 

Did you contact Asus support to ask them about the problem?  

 

Are you using the most current bios? 

 

 

[Wolverine2349]

25 minutes ago, Heliian said:

Fantastic! 

 

Did you contact Asus support to ask them about the problem?  

 

Are you using the most current bios? 

 

 

 

 

Yes using latest BIOS. I did not contact Asus.

[Wolverine2349]

Just ordered an MSI Z690 Unify X and Corsair Vengeance 32GB (2 X 16GB) DDR5 6600 32-39-39-76 CMK32GX5M2X6600C32 kit.

 

I am hoping this will finally work and be fully stable with my 13900K.  I hope this RAM runs well without needing active cooling at XMP settings on this motherboard. It is on the MSI Support list. If not I will return them and it is officially back to DDR4 for me.

[xh43k]

I have had literally the same problem.

 

I had Asus Prime Z790-P MB and G.SKILL 32GB KIT DDR5 7200MHz CL34 Trident Z5 RGB Black (F5-7200J3445G16GX2-TZ5RK)

It was not stable at XMP I/II/Tweaked

 

So I returned both MB and RAM, bought Asus Prime Z790-A thinking it would fare better, and second kit of the same RAM (to reduce my suspicion of RAM being bad)

But the problem remains.. it feels this MB/RAM is even worse, there is more errors in shorter amount of time even than with previous "cheaper" MB.

 

I managed to get it stable (so far) by lowering speed to 6800 MHz (timings etc.. automatc from XMP Tweaked profile), TM5 Extreme no errors in 4 hours.

 

I have really no idea where the problem lies with this.. many people report same problems with even the most expensive MBs.

[Wolverine2349]

Even an Asus Z790 Apex would not work so back to ebay (thank you ebay buyer protection despite no returns from seller and seller tried to fight  it but obviously ebay always sides with buyer) -

 

Also had failures with Z790 Hero and Z790-F Strix with WHEAs and intermittent BSODs

 

MSI Z690 Unify X works great DDR5 at XMP settings

 

 

 

[xh43k]

I really think this compatibility will be solved with some upcoming BIOS updates.. but we'll see.. I am happy now with 6800 MHz CL34 although it bothers me that I lose 400 MHz potential.