New computer sound system almost complete

[Fast_N_Curious]

This started when I blew the sub for my Z-5500 system. To replace it, I decided to go ahead with a home theater system custom option instead. It's been really fun learning the ropes of designing an audio system and sort of customizing everything. I have this set up in my shop, so I can listen to music while I work on cars or whatever it might be. Also, I know my satellite speakers are not where they should be. I normally put them in the proper location unless I am listening to the music really really load to avoid getting that direct hammering in my ears.

Specs:
7 x 105w Yamaha A/V receiver RX-V863
4 x 63w Logitech THX satellite speakers (from z5500 system) 250w RMS
1 x 150w RMS Klipsch RM-62II center speaker (600w max power handling)
2 x 400w Klipsch R12-SW 12" front firing subwoofers

Only thing left to add is two additional RM-62s and call it a day.

 

New 12" subwoofer (2nd one)



Logitech THX satellite speakers really punch above their weight class





You can just make out the other subwoofer on the other side of the desk.

 

 

Just finished boxing in the 2nd subwoofer today: I tried to mimic the boom I am getting from the first subwoofer to the right. Pretty close. Framing in the table acts as secondary resonator, which in this case probably boosted the "thud" by about 10-20% or more

 

 

 

[Fast_N_Curious]

[Psittac]

looks nice man

 

What do you mean 7x AV receiver? 7ch?

[Fast_N_Curious]

On 8/14/2022 at 10:28 PM, Psittac said:

looks nice man

 

What do you mean 7x AV receiver? 7ch?

Yes that's right. It's a 7 channel A/V unit. Also has a number of pre-amp outputs so I could add well over 7 speakers if I wanted. Both they would need amplifiers to work properly with the rest of the system. 

[Bad5ector]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:45 PM, Fast_N_Curious said:

7 x 105w Yamaha A/V receiver RX-V863

You know that number is only for 2 speakers driven, not all 7 channels. 

 

Personally I like to listen to music in 2.1. Movie and TV is when I go to multichannel. But to each their own.

 

Edit: NVM, this model is one of the few where they give the full power on all channels apparently. 

[Fast_N_Curious]

2 minutes ago, Bad5ector said:

You know that number is only for 2 speakers driven, not all 7 channels. 

 

Personally I like to listen to music in 2.1. Movie and TV is when I go to multichannel. But to each their own.

 

Edit: NVM, this model is one of the few where they give the full power on all channels apparently. 

Right, each one of the 7 outputs is 105w

[Bad5ector]

1 minute ago, Fast_N_Curious said:

Right, each one of the 7 outputs is 105w

It's very common in AVR world to see an AVR say it is so many watts... but then you check the fine print and usually the rating is only talking about 2 speakers driven. However this model is one of the few that actually advertises full wattage with all channels driven. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised, I have an old Yammy from 2005 era powering my garage speakers and it is rated at 100 watt x 5.

[Fast_N_Curious]

6 minutes ago, Bad5ector said:

It's very common in AVR world to see an AVR say it is so many watts... but then you check the fine print and usually the rating is only talking about 2 speakers driven. However this model is one of the few that actually advertises full wattage with all channels driven. I guess I shouldn't be so surprised, I have an old Yammy from 2005 era powering my garage speakers and it is rated at 100 watt x 5.

I did a lot of research on the receiver itself. Probably one of the better (old) ones you can find. Pretty powerful, with two sub outputs and lots and lots of good features. 

[Bad5ector]

@Fast_N_Curious I'd replace those Logitech satellites next to better take advantage of that amp IMO.

[Fast_N_Curious]

Just now, Bad5ector said:

@Fast_N_Curious I'd replace those Logitech satellites next to better take advantage of that amp IMO.

Good call. And I do have that in mind.

They are only temporary until I get two more RM-62IIs (like the center one I posted above)..

 

Surprisingly, they actually do fairly well on this system, but yeah, they are going away regardless. 

[Bad5ector]

53 minutes ago, Fast_N_Curious said:

They are only temporary until I get two more RM-62IIs (like the center one I posted above)..

Is there a reason you're going with center channel speakers and not traditional bookshelf or floor standing? AFAIK a lot of center channels have a very narrow sound field. Like the cone of sound coming from them is usually concentrated at the MLP (main listening position). If I were you I'd look at the klipsch R51 bookshelf,  if you're wanting to stick with the kilpsch reference line. But I hear that if you really want to take it to the next level, their RP line is apparently leaps and bounds better but at a price. 

[Fast_N_Curious]

6 minutes ago, Bad5ector said:

Is there a reason you're going with center channel speakers and not traditional bookshelf or floor standing? AFAIK a lot of center channels have a very narrow sound field. Like the cone of sound coming from them is usually concentrated at the MLP (main listening position). If I were you I'd look at the klipsch R51 bookshelf,  if you're wanting to stick with the kilpsch reference line. But I hear that if you really want to take it to the next level, their RP line is apparently leaps and bounds better but at a price. 

Someone on another forum recommended them ( I miss-spoke I actually have the RC-62II center)

 

Here are the specs. Is this going to be okay to use as "bookshelf" L+R speakers as well?

 

[Bad5ector]

27 minutes ago, Fast_N_Curious said:

Here are the specs. Is this going to be okay to use as "bookshelf" L+R speakers as well?

Personally I would go with the actual bookshelf speakers. Speakers that are designed as center channels are usually better suited for that purpose. However, hardcore folks will skip the center channel all together and go with 3 of the same floor standing or bookshelf speakers for perfectly matched audio. Usually the center is hidden behind an acoustically transparent projection screen. 

 

If you have a moment, perhaps this video might help explain it better, since I admittedly am still a noob at this.

 

 

I just happened to upgrade my home theater this year, new TV, AVR, Sub and Atmos height speakers. So I've been going deep down that rabbit hole of audiophile do's and don'ts... and usually find a lot of contradicting information. I was looking at also getting a pair of RP8000-fs but decided on sticking with my old Wharfdale 9.6s and the matching 9.4 center for now. From what I've read, I'll probably not like the horn tweeters anyways.

 

Still have a pair of the Klipsch R41ms on my Amazon wishlist though as an upgrade for my crap rear channels. Some 80 dollar specials from Amazon. I figured I'd stick with Klipsch for my surrounds, since I already purchased their Atmos add-ons (using as height speakers, not in the upward firing position sitting a top a speaker). Anywhoo, at the end of the day do whatever you think works best for you and your ears... and don't let anyone tell you that your xyz purchase was a waste of money.

 

I know that Klipsch can rile up some heated debates in the audiophile space. I remember reading that the sub that I got (same as yours) was crap on one of my forums but  yet it was a massive improvement over my old 10" Velodyne sub from the 90s. Can this sub do below 20hz, no... but pretty sure I would be getting a divorce if I rattled my house any more than it already does with watching / listening to my setup.

[cmndr]

As stated, don’t use center channel speakers unless forced to. They’re hacks used to get a less tall speaker and have all sorts of issues associated with them. Two woofers next to each other means you get issues with sound from one canceling out sound from the other. 
 

klipsch is OK when on sale and NOT worth considering at regular price. Do be aware that when others measure things like sensitivity they often get figures more like 86dB, not Klipsch's unbelievable 98dB. Klipsch has NOT figured out how to get 10x the efficiency of JBL, Elac, Polk, etc. They're ALL in the same ballpark. Same underlying physics issues apply.
 

as an fyi for computer use I skip the center outright and just gave the signal redirected to my left + right. I own an ok center fyi and just don’t have it hooked up. 
 

in HT set ups, centers mostly matter if people are way off axis. Phantom center (signal redirected) can work better in many scenarios (imo most people are better off tossing the $$$ into better L+R as GOOD centers are usually $500+ and even most $500+ centers aren’t that amazing)

[Bad5ector]

2 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Phantom center (signal redirected) can work better in many scenarios

I find that is best for music IMO. I love it when I'm listening to my setup in 2.1 and think for a second the center channel is playing. I sometimes have to go up and put my ear to it just to make sure it isn't. lol.

[cmndr]

For desktop usage it's often BETTER to have a phantom center if you're going to be physically close to the speakers. It's kind of offputting if you hear sound bouncing around from speaker to speaker and that effect pops up if you're physically close.
A lot of stereo content just doesn't know what to do with the center and you end up with a really "eugh" experience overall. Youtube is a key example.
I fiddled with every AVR upmixing setting I had out there on two different AVRs. Some forum reading also confirmed the experience. Center channels can do more harm than good in the near field. If you only need to optimize for ONE seating position then bookshelf speakers with the tweeters at ear level will beat out a center that's below the monitor and at a weird angle.

It also frees up desk space.

If your set up is done such that you're around 5' away from the monitor/TV it's doable with a center but otherwise... you're balancing tradeoffs.

As stated, I have an Emotiva C1+ siting in a closet doing nothing. For desktop usage it was a downgrade in overall utility vs just having the signal split between my L+R.

[cmndr]

10 hours ago, Bad5ector said:

I remember reading that the sub that I got (same as yours) was crap on one of my forums but  yet it was a massive improvement over my old 10" Velodyne sub from the 90s. Can this sub do below 20hz, no... but pretty sure I would be getting a divorce if I rattled my house any more than it already does with watching / listening to my setup.

If you're using a good EQ and room correction system (and possibly 2+ subs in strategic locations) there shouldn't be all that much house rattling.
A lot of the boominess and rattling comes from an AVR automatically trying to jack up the bass way too aggressively (compensating for room nulls?).

If you have resonances (think things rattling) that is often another set of issues though (add foam to doors and under certain objects).

 

I have TWO SVS subs that hit below 20Hz. Dealing with room issues (I removed a closet door as the closet was acting as a giant resonator) and moving the subwoofer around along with some DSP resolved most bass issues I had. My roommate can't really hear the bass in his room next to mine. Can't speak to anyone below me though (but it's a garage). On balance bass going low mostly impacts people underneath the sub since there's a direct path for vibrations.
 

[Bad5ector]

@cmndrI am currently working on treating the room as best I can. Unfortunately the room isn't a dedicated listening space, and has been really quite challenging trying to make drastic changes. Room correction helped a lot with the peaks and nulls, except for the left front speaker. It seems to have a null at around 100hz. But it's in a corner next to a door (which I treated with 2" acoustic foam). 

 

I spent days trying to dial in the sub so that after running room correction (MultiEQ) the sub wasn't being set to -12db, I think it's sitting at -11.5 now. This is with the sub's gain at way below '12 o'clock'. I'd say at like 25 to 30%. I also found best response for me and my room was a nearfield placement of my single sub. She sits right behind my couch now... I really love the tactile punch it has, plus it seemed to be the place I got the best sound to my ear. I even did the sub crawl. 

 

However, if you're interested, we can take this discussion off thread (or I could start a new one) if you think you could offer any other suggestions for best way to setup what I have. I'm still totally in the trial and error stage of my audiophile addiction. 

 

Cheers

[cmndr]

I have a room null around 90Hz.

My current "fix" for it is to add +3dB via EQ (above and beyond auto room correction) to my L+R and to play around with the phase settings on my two subwoofers. It mostly resolves the issue. I expect having my speakers above my desk and the subs below the desk creates its whole own host of trade offs (think moderate comb filtering at multiples for 500Hz or so). I did this via the multi-EQ phone app and playing around with measurements in REW (umik-1 for measuring). I also have a mini-DSP unit that I got as a handmedown from someone that used to work at one of the AVR companies... haven't had a chance to fiddle with it yet. I'm mostly playing a game of tradeoffs right now (mixed usage space, I have an overkill computer set up and I occasionally move a meter back and listen on a couch for a movie experience - both require their own room correction profiles and I'm not going to bother fiddling with speaker positioning and subwoofer phase settings for both, at most it'll be change the RC via an app - my L+R speakers have good horizontal directivity so they're less sensitive to angling so it sorta works).



Unfortunately "better speakers" won't do very much about bass nulls, it's mostly a matter of positioning and adding on more subs. Going from 1 to 2 gives you most of the benefit but it really is a case where more subs helps.

 

If you like the "punch" from a subwoofer, look into getting a tactile transducer. It's on my infinite to do list.

----

 

As far as helping OP, the biggest thing is to talk him out of getting a bunch of center channels (yes, they're bigger, no they're not "better" - their biggest benefit is being less tall and often being 1-3dB more efficient vs bookshelf speakers BUT tower speakers do that and more without all the awful comb filtering). IF you have a center channel it's the most important speaker (most sound gets routed to it). If you don't then the L+R are the most important speakers.

 

[Fast_N_Curious]

On 8/17/2022 at 2:25 PM, Bad5ector said:

klipsch R51

I think this is what I will be going with next month... thanks for the recommendation

 

My system still needs subwoofer tuning. The secondary resonator amplifies the sound, but I'm still not getting a good balance between both subs. 

I've been experimenting with the subwoofer controls. Right now I have gain and crossover turned all the way up. 

 

This seems to add the 3d effect to the lows. They aren't crackling or popping, so I am assuming I'm in the clear by doing this?

 

I have the crossover on my yamaha receiver set to 90Hz. 

[Fast_N_Curious]

2 hours ago, cmndr said:

As far as helping OP, the biggest thing is to talk him out of getting a bunch of center channels (yes, they're bigger, no they're not "better" - their biggest benefit is being less tall and often being 1-3dB more efficient vs bookshelf speakers BUT tower speakers do that and more without all the awful comb filtering). IF you have a center channel it's the most important speaker (most sound gets routed to it). If you don't then the L+R are the most important speakers.

I am following your advice and ditching the center channel for L+R speakers.

 

 

[Fast_N_Curious]

reserved

 

 

[cmndr]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:12 PM, Fast_N_Curious said:

I am following your advice and ditching the center channel for L+R speakers.

One thing to put out there DO TEST if you're able to. The center channel DOES help if you're dealing with multiple positions (left/right).

If you do get rid of your center speaker your set up DOES become more sensitive positioning (so WHERE the l+r speakers are in terms of). Generally speaking you would want to move the L+R speakers inward a little bit more than otherwise. Mine are around 6' apart (otherwise they'd be more like 8-9' apart).
 

This also means that speaker choice matters a bit more when it comes to horizontal directivity (this matters less if you're sitting 5-10' away vs being relatively close). I couldn't find the Klisch 61-II speakers so I used the RP-500M II as a substitute.
In this case you'd want to look at the red part and see how well it does at the angle (theta). The Klipsch speakers are mostly good at ~30 degrees left/right. The Emotivas are more like 40 degrees. The implication is that the emotivas are less sensitive to positioning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fast_N_Curious]

On 8/18/2022 at 1:48 AM, cmndr said:

If you're using a good EQ and room correction system (and possibly 2+ subs in strategic locations) there shouldn't be all that much house rattling.
A lot of the boominess and rattling comes from an AVR automatically trying to jack up the bass way too aggressively (compensating for room nulls?).

If you have resonances (think things rattling) that is often another set of issues though (add foam to doors and under certain objects).

 

I have TWO SVS subs that hit below 20Hz. Dealing with room issues (I removed a closet door as the closet was acting as a giant resonator) and moving the subwoofer around along with some DSP resolved most bass issues I had. My roommate can't really hear the bass in his room next to mine. Can't speak to anyone below me though (but it's a garage). On balance bass going low mostly impacts people underneath the sub since there's a direct path for vibrations.
 

Do you think I should add a transducer to further enhance the subwoofers, since it's on a cement floor?

 

How do I go about picking a transducer and will i need to use an amplifier to power each one (one for each sub)

[cmndr]

I haven't really done much research on tactile transducers, it's on my infinite to do list to get one for myself. From the look of things, 1 or 2 50ish W units and a budget amplifier are adequate if you build it into your couch.

Based on your subwoofer not really doing under 30Hz or so a transducer can be useful for movies. Low frequency bass is FELT more than it's heard so it could be good for filling in the gap.
 

Also be aware that bass (coming from a subwoofer) is going to HEAVILY depend on your room and calibration. Positioning matters. Time alignment/Phase matters. EQ matters. REW is awesome for dialing that all in.