Elon Musk tells Tesla workers to return to the office full time or resign

[Neroon]

Because it's an asshole move, that's why people complain. I will defend that is his right, and that people can leave. But if these people been working from home for 2+ years now, why can't they continue?

 

Force them in the office one or twice per week, sure. Force them full time if their performance had a drop, sure. But just forcing them 40 hours per week in the office without any room there, that's an asshole move.

[steelo]

10 minutes ago, Neroon said:

Because it's an asshole move, that's why people complain. I will defend that is his right, and that people can leave. But if these people been working from home for 2+ years now, why can't they continue?

 

Force them in the office one or twice per week, sure. Force them full time if their performance had a drop, sure. But just forcing them 40 hours per week in the office without any room there, that's an asshole move.

But in the end, he is the boss and he makes the call. I'm sure he has legit reasons for wanting people in the office and he's not just being an ahole.

[Neroon]

It's well established he is the CEO and can enforce that rule. We don't need to keep discussing that.

 

As for the second part, I would have to disagree. You always want to have your workers be as efficient as possible. Not everyone will be as efficient while working at the office, and on top of that forcing people to do something, never boosts morale.

Does that mean he had no reason? Of course not, but that reason could be many things, like being super arrogant and forcing people to do what he wants, because he likes it. Or to push people out like someone else suggested. Or because he himself doesn't believe in it, without doing his due diligence (he doesn't like to do DD apparently)

 

The fact is, it is beneficial for many to at least partially work from home, as a CEO he is actually forced to do whatever is best for the company, so if it isn't to push people out to save on cutting back, then he could be sued by his shareholders.

[Imbadatnames]

23 hours ago, Neroon said:

It's well established he is the CEO and can enforce that rule. We don't need to keep discussing that.

 

As for the second part, I would have to disagree. You always want to have your workers be as efficient as possible. Not everyone will be as efficient while working at the office, and on top of that forcing people to do something, never boosts morale.

Does that mean he had no reason? Of course not, but that reason could be many things, like being super arrogant and forcing people to do what he wants, because he likes it. Or to push people out like someone else suggested. Or because he himself doesn't believe in it, without doing his due diligence (he doesn't like to do DD apparently)

 

The fact is, it is beneficial for many to at least partially work from home, as a CEO he is actually forced to do whatever is best for the company, so if it isn't to push people out to save on cutting back, then he could be sued by his shareholders.

Having offices empty isn’t great either, a lot of places have clauses in for office space to actually be used and not just empty. Think Apple Park has something like that from then they built it. 

[wanderingfool2]

  

On 6/2/2022 at 3:00 AM, Sauron said:

CEOs can say it as much as they want but the facts disagree. Allowing people to work from home is not only good for their well being but also for the company's bottom line.

That is very cherry picked stats.  The literal article points to a study that is analyzing call center employees...of course they are able to be more productive at home, because not only are they still tracked (ie avg call length and such) but they get the benefit of a quieter environment (which in a call center means better communication, which in turn leads to a lower call length and more productivity).

 

Lots of businesses are realizing the expense and cost of having employees from home.  You need better security as well, and you lose the productivity of working in a group.  Literally I developed more in 1 week working with my colleagues than working the 1 month in isolation (just plugging along)...why because when I had an issue I had someone to quickly turn to and get a response in a second or two.

 

At Tesla there is likely a bigger need as well for the senior people to be in work given how they have had employees who have tried stealing IP and bringing it to competitors.

 

On 6/1/2022 at 11:55 PM, Monkey Dust said:

There are benefits to being in the office, but you don't need to be in 5 days a week to get them. Spending 1 or 2, possibly more, hours (of entirely unproductive time) a day commuting entirely for the sake of presenteeism is plain stupid. It causes a huge amount of pollution, as well as traffic congestion. The congestion making other sectors of the economy which rely on the road network less productive.

Well I mean they do work at Tesla, so the employees get the vehicles for cheaper...so I would care a lot less about polution.

 

A note regarding the rest of the post, the wording heavily implies it's for middle-management type of people and people who have people reporting to them.  While people could "sign checks from home" there is a certain benefit to having people on the same team working together (ideas and efficiencies pop up from that)

 

On 6/2/2022 at 3:00 AM, Sauron said:

It's not like gas prices aren't affecting overall energy prices, and it's not like Tesla makes affordable cars. Maybe Musk can complain about his employees not driving a Tesla when he starts paying them better.

You talk about being anti-labor and implying they don't get paid enough, but from what I've seen the same job (when including benefits and stock options) is higher paying than the competitors (that's before factoring in that at the competitors they have to pay union fees).

 

On 6/3/2022 at 3:41 AM, Heliian said:

The real reason was that he wants to cut 10% of the workforce.  He was hoping people would just quit instead of having to properly lay off the staff. 

 

Next up, another pump and dump so he can continue the shell game. 

List the things he pumped and dumped.  Key work being on dumped.  Can't claim it's bitcoin, because despite the claims Tesla is still holding the majority.  Can't really say so for Tesla, most sales were triggered by stock options he had to utilize or it would fall off the table so to speak.

 

On 6/3/2022 at 1:07 AM, Rauten said:

But the thing is, the companies are forcing everyone to work 100% at the office, regardless of whether it truly affects performance or not (and it may even improve performance for some people!).

There is a bunch of stuff that is really intangible when it comes to working in the office.

 

 

Overall to this topic, I see the benefits of working in the office, if you manage people who have to be in the office then you should be there as well.  It builds a better team and the way it current is run, there are optimizations that can be made

 

 

 

On 6/1/2022 at 10:49 AM, Derangel said:

I have to wonder what moral is like at Tesla and how that plays into the QA issues related to the vehicles.

More likely the QA issues (at least the non-panel gap ones) are more related to that they would get bonuses if the met/exceeded the quota's that they were assigned.  That incentive has been eliminated (instead getting a raise).  So now there will be less of a push to get every last vehicle out the door.

 

For the panel gaps, that will hopefully be resolved with the newer front and rear cast moldings, which have less parts so less ability for parts to be misaligned by a few mm here and there.

[Isuck Assimov]

[Neroon]

On 6/5/2022 at 7:34 AM, wanderingfool2 said:

List the things he pumped and dumped.  Key work being on dumped.  Can't claim it's bitcoin, because despite the claims Tesla is still holding the majority.  Can't really say so for Tesla, most sales were triggered by stock options he had to utilize or it would fall off the table so to speak.

Tesla still owning Bitcoin is meaningless. Tesla is not the same as Musk. Musk is a person, Tesla a company. Musk used Tesla but also just his influence, to move crypto he already owned, to go way up. Now you can't tell me that he was/is still holding it when he stopped talking about it.

 

He did pump and dumps, simple as that.

[Stahlmann]

It makes sense that he'd want the actual engineers working on new projects at the office. There are many things that simply cannot be done efficiently via home-office, even though there are many team management software solutions.

 

That being said, there are also a lot of office jobs in industral manufacturing that can be done from home without any drawbacks; Purchasing for example. And other jobs can be done with only 1 or 2 office days a week, like HR.

 

And even today there are many companies that don't have any intention of letting people work from home. There are positives and negatives to every approach.

[Arika]

2 hours ago, Assimov said:

 

No one likes an echo chamber.

I think Elon can be a dickhead, but it doesn't mean everything he does is evil. People are allowed to agree with his stance on things.

[Neroon]

36 minutes ago, Arika S said:

 

No one likes an echo chamber.

I think Elon can be a dickhead, but it doesn't mean everything he does is evil. People are allowed to agree with his stance on things.

Defending his crypto shit is pretty damn bad though.

[Arika]

8 minutes ago, Neroon said:

Defending his crypto shit is pretty damn bad though

Fixed, but also: yes.

[Isuck Assimov]

pretty sure only reason for this whole thing is that elon can't sexually harrass TESLA employees as easily when they're working from home

The only american car manufacturer without a labor union and without a doubt the one that most needs an institution that safeguards the workers rights.
(All while paying 20-30 % lower wages than comparable businesses with union contracts)

[wanderingfool2]

18 hours ago, Neroon said:

Tesla still owning Bitcoin is meaningless. Tesla is not the same as Musk. Musk is a person, Tesla a company. Musk used Tesla but also just his influence, to move crypto he already owned, to go way up. Now you can't tell me that he was/is still holding it when he stopped talking about it.

 

He did pump and dumps, simple as that.

Are you just assuming that?  I mean if you are going to make claims, at least provide evidence of such things

[Neroon]

5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Are you just assuming that?  I mean if you are going to make claims, at least provide evidence of such things

The evidence is out there. But if you wish to be a Musk fanboy, and believe he just constantly tweeted about those coins for fun, then go ahead. 

 

Oh and if he did just do that for fun, than he is even more fucked up than I thought.

[RasmusDC]

I´m not for and against this, i do feel that for some people working from home works, and in some areas, like if you have a global support function, it will free the employee up to be more flexible on meetings and others.

 

So there are positives, i however can also feel, that this "working from home" part can affect projects and development negatively, maybe "person A" feels more productive, but the world around does not know that that person is doing, so alignment with other things are missing.

 

I especially feel that there are MUCH more alignment, and you have to simple at times define that this meeting IS face2face, because it just does not work online. 

 

Generally there are also productive people, that just zone off in online sessions, or work on other elements, and some times you actually need the full focus, because you actually need alignment.

 

there are tools, like Teams, MIRO, whiteboard apps, card planners and whatever, but when discussion and complexity gets high, these systems seems to often become less valuable.

 

Maybe in a PURE IT enviroment this can work, but to be honest, having worked with development hubs, decoupled teams for many many years, the investment you have to do to actually make it work properly is sometimes MORE expensive that just being on site. 

 

And to be honest, Musk is the owner of this company, and apparently feels like his staff has made a decision on meeting culture that he does not support.

[Fluph]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:21 PM, wseaton said:

For once I agree with Elon on something. He was blunt. That is all. Lots of CEOs are saying the same thing. Recruiters are calling me complaining half of the applicants to jobs *demand* work from home, and employers are increasingly not giving in. 

 

Guys, I've built and supported remote access since the late 90s and I've had this debate to death for years. Here's the brutal truth on the matter. If you can work from home, you can work from India a lot cheaper. Im already seeing the shift starting. Whatever skill you have via a VPN session is replaceable. Period. By being remote 100% you just make it easier to get a termination notice via email easier.

 

"I am just as efficient working from home". Heard it millions of times. That's what you say. How about the guy signing your check?  This 1998 all over again when web developers went to interviews wearing flip flops. 2 years later they were waiting tables. 

If you or those you know are an an equal footing with call centres from India then yes, a P45 is probably on its way.  That has nothing to do with working from home or not though.

[wanderingfool2]

5 hours ago, Neroon said:

The evidence is out there. But if you wish to be a Musk fanboy, and believe he just constantly tweeted about those coins for fun, then go ahead. 

 

Oh and if he did just do that for fun, than he is even more fucked up than I thought.

"evidence is out there" is a cop-out statement.  If you make claims of pump and dump it's up to you to show it exists.  Just like how people claimed that Tesla itself had dumped all of their crypto, when in fact they didn't.

 

While I don't agree with crypto-currenies, the way Musk has approached it I would say is more about having less reliance on the government.  His push for specifically doge coin...where he offered people who had a lot of coins essentially money to distribute it, the push to have more transactions per day (attempt to reduce the footprint), etc.  I genuinely think he likes the concept of crypto.  Diversifying your funds is very important...e.g. if you can afford it, having money in multiple currencies and other assets (gold/property).

 

There is also a scenario where crypto could actually become a thing as well (not in it's current form) but eventually it might.  e.g. the government itself create the currency and using it as legal tender (but controlling the generation of the coin itself)...i.e. virtual currency.  In that scenario it actually makes a lot more sense

[Neroon]

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

"evidence is out there" is a cop-out statement.  If you make claims of pump and dump it's up to you to show it exists.  Just like how people claimed that Tesla itself had dumped all of their crypto, when in fact they didn't.

 

While I don't agree with crypto-currenies, the way Musk has approached it I would say is more about having less reliance on the government.  His push for specifically doge coin...where he offered people who had a lot of coins essentially money to distribute it, the push to have more transactions per day (attempt to reduce the footprint), etc.  I genuinely think he likes the concept of crypto.  Diversifying your funds is very important...e.g. if you can afford it, having money in multiple currencies and other assets (gold/property).

 

There is also a scenario where crypto could actually become a thing as well (not in it's current form) but eventually it might.  e.g. the government itself create the currency and using it as legal tender (but controlling the generation of the coin itself)...i.e. virtual currency.  In that scenario it actually makes a lot more sense

Oh right, I forgot, this is a court of law, I need to have cold hard proof.

 

The fact that Musk constantly pushed certain cryptos, while all the sudden dropping them again, and accepting bitcoin, only to deny it again after its ATH, because they were bad for the environment, only to start accepting it again after it reached it's low point at that time.

 

Sure let's all pretend that constantly tweeting and even mentioning shitcoins on SNL is perfectly legit.

 

Tesla not dumping their BTC means nothing, you know why? Because they have to open their books, unlike Musk himself. So Musk can manipulate the crypto market no problem, but Tesla is a different story.

 

This is not a conspiracy, the best you can argue is that he didn't intend to pump and dump, but considering he did it with Shiba after Doge, it's safe to say he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

But hey, believe in this billionaire scam artist. Also feel free to believe this whole thing is perfectly legit as well.

[wanderingfool2]

12 hours ago, Neroon said:

Oh right, I forgot, this is a court of law, I need to have cold hard proof.

You made accusations about someone acting as though true, and calling people Musk fanboys for simply asking to prove it.  So yea, you need to show proof or else you become exactly what "Musk fanboys" do.  Blindly mimic statements.

 

13 hours ago, Neroon said:

Tesla not dumping their BTC means nothing, you know why? Because they have to open their books, unlike Musk himself. So Musk can manipulate the crypto market no problem, but Tesla is a different story.

 

This is not a conspiracy, the best you can argue is that he didn't intend to pump and dump, but considering he did it with Shiba after Doge, it's safe to say he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

But hey, believe in this billionaire scam artist. Also feel free to believe this whole thing is perfectly legit as well.

Totally ignoring the fact actively mentioning things like that would put him square bullseye for an SEC investigation...and given how closely the SEC seems to follow him, you think if he is running pumping and dumps that the SEC would be investigating his wording over crypto...but you know, let's ignore reason and just assume the worst.

 

[Neroon]

5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

You made accusations about someone acting as though true, and calling people Musk fanboys for simply asking to prove it.  So yea, you need to show proof or else you become exactly what "Musk fanboys" do.  Blindly mimic statements.

 

Totally ignoring the fact actively mentioning things like that would put him square bullseye for an SEC investigation...and given how closely the SEC seems to follow him, you think if he is running pumping and dumps that the SEC would be investigating his wording over crypto...but you know, let's ignore reason and just assume the worst.

 

Nope. Aside from the SEC being very incapable, those laws apply to stocks. Crypto are currencies, different game. Why do you think he is so obvious about it, because they can't do nothing.

[wanderingfool2]

5 hours ago, Neroon said:

Nope. Aside from the SEC being very incapable, those laws apply to stocks. Crypto are currencies, different game. Why do you think he is so obvious about it, because they can't do nothing.

From my understanding of the current SEC mandates and regulations, they still have the biting power in order to go after market manipulation of crypto currencies.  They are lacking in terms of regulations forcing exchanges to have full records of people though.  There is also the issue that buying and selling large amounts of crypto (and if pumping and dumping), it would still need to be submitted towards tax records...which again would raise red flags.

 

The simple fact is, Musk doesn't need to pump and dump.  He has a net worth of over $200 billion, the amount of manipulation at best wouldn't even be able to make up 1% of his net worth (and would put him in line for lawsuits of even more money).  He would have to be extremely dumb to do pump and dumps.

[Neroon]

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

From my understanding of the current SEC mandates and regulations, they still have the biting power in order to go after market manipulation of crypto currencies.  They are lacking in terms of regulations forcing exchanges to have full records of people though.  There is also the issue that buying and selling large amounts of crypto (and if pumping and dumping), it would still need to be submitted towards tax records...which again would raise red flags.

 

The simple fact is, Musk doesn't need to pump and dump.  He has a net worth of over $200 billion, the amount of manipulation at best wouldn't even be able to make up 1% of his net worth (and would put him in line for lawsuits of even more money).  He would have to be extremely dumb to do pump and dumps.

You would think he doesn't need to do it, but there he is talking about shitcoins. So you are contradicting yourself. Either he doesn't need or care, and doesn't talk about it, or he does care and thus talks about it.

 

The SEC is extremely undermanned. And even if they were to go after him, they would need to proof he actually did a pump and dump. He like anyone else is allowed to talk about this stuff, he didn't give out fake info, he didn't give recommendations etc. They can't touch him.

 

But if you think that this would be proof that he ain't pumping and dumping, that would be nonsense. He absolutely knew the effect he would have on those shitcoins, and he kept repeating it. 

[wanderingfool2]

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

You would think he doesn't need to do it, but there he is talking about shitcoins. So you are contradicting yourself. Either he doesn't need or care, and doesn't talk about it, or he does care and thus talks about it.

You have no sense of logic.  I'm sorry, I'm not going to respond anymore to you, no point.  Just as an fyi, it's not contradicting myself.  Stating he doesn't need to vs you claiming talking about crypto are mutually exclusive.  You ASSUME that because he talks about crypto that he's doing so to pump and dump.  That is a very flawed assumption and the fact that attribute that to me contracting myself just shows how blinded you are.

 

1 hour ago, Neroon said:

The SEC is extremely undermanned. And even if they were to go after him, they would need to proof he actually did a pump and dump. He like anyone else is allowed to talk about this stuff, he didn't give out fake info, he didn't give recommendations etc. They can't touch him.

Are you kidding me?  He's already been a target of multiple and I mean multiple SEC investigations (some justified, some which does seem like someone was using their power to mess with him).  They can and have very much gone after him in the past.  So if he truly is doing a pump and dump it's more than easy enough for SEC to investigate him, as they know so much information on him already (bank records, probably access to tax records).

[Neroon]

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

You have no sense of logic.  I'm sorry, I'm not going to respond anymore to you, no point.  Just as an fyi, it's not contradicting myself.  Stating he doesn't need to vs you claiming talking about crypto are mutually exclusive.  You ASSUME that because he talks about crypto that he's doing so to pump and dump.  That is a very flawed assumption and the fact that attribute that to me contracting myself just shows how blinded you are.

 

Are you kidding me?  He's already been a target of multiple and I mean multiple SEC investigations (some justified, some which does seem like someone was using their power to mess with him).  They can and have very much gone after him in the past.  So if he truly is doing a pump and dump it's more than easy enough for SEC to investigate him, as they know so much information on him already (bank records, probably access to tax records).

Your claim was that he doesn't need to pump and dump because he got so much money, that this wouldn't amount to even 1%. If that were to be true, why would he bother putting money in shitcoins, and constantly tweeting about them? Would you do that if you put that little in it, especially being that well known? 

Also your claims of less than 1% are just silly to say the least. You have no clue how much he put in there. If you could make a crypto go up 10-30% in a day with 1 tweet, would you only put small amounts in? 

 

You are severely underestimating his greed, sociopathy and intellect to think he barely gained from all his attention for those shitcoins.