audio Help with beginner audiophile setup

[Memphills2]

Hello y'all, 

 

I'm looking to upgrade from my HyperX headphones to something a little better with the intend to just listen & enjoy on my PC (I'm not recording anything). Also, my budget is around 300 $

 

1. I'd be happy to receive your recommendations on open-back headphones

 

2. What external amp and DAC do you recommend. I've been thinking of Sound Blaster X3.

 

3. Do external DAC's (like Sound Blaster X3) replace the function or your motherboard sound card or do I need something else to escape motherboard interference?

 

Thank you in advance, peace

[suedseefrucht]

46 minutes ago, Memphills2 said:

2. What external amp and DAC do you recommend. I've been thinking of Sound Blaster X3.

 

3. Do external DAC's (like Sound Blaster X3) replace the function or your motherboard sound card or do I need something else to escape motherboard interference?

I never did anything of that myself, but this is what I read:

Your PC has a DAC and an amplifier. You can connect almost any headphones to it.

(A really really low impedance would be like a shrt circuit, which is bad.)

 

There are two thing which could happen:

1. Even on 100 % volume, it's not loud enough (probably because your headphones have a high impedance). Then you can get an external amplifier for more power.

2. The sound is noisy. Then you can get a better external DAC for less noise in the sound.

[Memphills2]

1 hour ago, suedseefrucht said:

I never did anything of that myself, but this is what I read:

Your PC has a DAC and an amplifier. You can connect almost any headphones to it.

(A really really low impedance would be like a shrt circuit, which is bad.)

 

There are two thing which could happen:

1. Even on 100 % volume, it's not loud enough (probably because your headphones have a high impedance). Then you can get an external amplifier for more power.

2. The sound is noisy. Then you can get a better external DAC for less noise in the sound.

Thx m8

[Ahoy Hoy]

3 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

Hello y'all, 

 

I'm looking to upgrade from my HyperX headphones to something a little better with the intend to just listen & enjoy on my PC (I'm not recording anything). Also, my budget is around 300 $

 

1. I'd be happy to receive your recommendations on open-back headphones

 

2. What external amp and DAC do you recommend. I've been thinking of Sound Blaster X3.

 

3. Do external DAC's (like Sound Blaster X3) replace the function or your motherboard sound card or do I need something else to escape motherboard interference?

 

Thank you in advance, peace

Headphones make all the difference might as well just ignore DACs or Amps unless you have a problem with the audio on your motherboard.
$300 headphones will sound so much better then $150 headphones and a $150 dac and  amp.


I've recently switched to Sennheiser open back headphones from Beyer dynamics and its so much better. More comfortable sounds so much better even though the Sennheiser's are cheaper.

[Tigerleon]

2 hours ago, Ahoy Hoy said:

I've recently switched to Sennheiser open back headphones from Beyer dynamics and its so much better. More comfortable sounds so much better even though the Sennheiser's are cheaper.

Speaking of sennheisers.

6 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

1. I'd be happy to receive your recommendations on open-back headphones

 

HD560's are really good for what I've heard.

 

6 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

What external amp and DAC do you recommend. I've been thinking of Sound Blaster X3.

Good choice. Also it is a personal choice to get one. As for what Ahoy said about not needing a DAC/amp or an amp for headphones, it definitely depends on which headphones. The HD 560 S need an amp to get the full potential out of them.

[Spuriae]

The differences between two similar-sounding headphones are larger than the differences between the same headphone plugged into a dac/amp vs. the average motherboard, except in a handful of edge cases (extremely efficient/inefficient or extremely high/low impedance headphones). A $200 headphone plugged into a motherboard is generally more ideal than a $100 headphone plugged into the best dac/amp in the world. (Speaking of which, what motherboard do you have? Is there anything wrong with it? Do you get audible noise with your current headphones?)

 

Unless something is wrong with your current motherboard, I normally recommend buying the headphones you like and deciding if you want to keep them long-term before upgrading electronics. Different headphones have different power needs, and deciding on the electronics before the headphones is backwards to me.

 

As for headphones, what do you like/dislike about the HyperX Clouds, and what changes would you want in the new headphones? See the glossary of audio terms here if you're feeling adventurous. What volume settings do you listen at? Do you use EQ?

 

Keeping in mind that price isn't always correleated with sound quality, and that beyond the ~$150 mark nowadays much of sound quality is really down to personal preference, my list of recommended open backs under $300 goes something like this, in a rough order of ascending spiciness:

• Sennheiser HD650/6XX ($220). Not much soundstage. Decent imaging. Limited bass extension with a touch of bloat, but otherwise tonally excellent. Among the best timbre of any headphone, at any budget. The most accurate mid/treble detail on this list, but not a ton of it. Swapping back and forth with other headphones, you'll rarely hear "new" details that you didn't hear before; instead you'll become painfully aware of how fake-sounding some of the "detail" on other headphones is. The headphone everyone seems to have one of, no matter how expensive the rest of their setup is, and for good reason.
• Sennheiser HD58X ($170). Gives up a bit of the pros of the HD650 for slight improvements with some of the cons. Some would argue that it loses the mid tonality and treble smoothness that makes the HD650 so remarkable.
• Sennheiser HD560S ($180). Better soundstage than either of the above. Marginally larger but less precise soundstage than the K612; much larger soundstage than the above. Tonally similar to the 58x, with better bass extension but generally elevated and peakier upper treble. The current flavor of the month.
• AKG K612 ($150). Neutral. Good soundstage and imaging. Nothing remarkable, nothing to complain about. Brighter than the above. Clean response throughout with less bass quantity but good extension. I doubt these are the "ideal" headphone for anyone, but I doubt they're a bad choice for anyone either. A good EQ candidate.
• Hifiman HE400SE ($150). May need an amplifier to get loud enough. Decent soundstage, average imaging. The cleanest-sounding bass on this list, being a planar. More laid-back, perhaps to the point of lacking clarity. Timbre is iffy but perhaps not too noticeable without another good pair of headphones to reference to. Physically heavy.
• Beyerdynamic DT990/Tygr ($180). You like fun. You like big bass and treble. You've never gotten listening fatigue ever before. You like big soundstage. You can have all that at the expense of recessed mids, muddy bass, and overemphasized (some would say painful) treble. Initially impressive-sounding, but not something I would want to listen to every day. The sound profile is well-suited for gaming. The 32Ω models will need a low output impedance amplifier to minimize bass bloat.

That's not to say that there aren't others. A number of flavors-of-the-month have fallen by the wayside but still may be ideal for certain listeners (such as T50RP and Fidelio X2). There are some other headphones just outside the budget (such as R70X and Sundara) as well, though they're more different flavors than upgrades.

[CTR640]

2 hours ago, Tigerleon said:

Speaking of sennheisers.

HD560's are really good for what I've heard.

 

Good choice. Also it is a personal choice to get one. As for what Ahoy said about not needing a DAC/amp or an amp for headphones, it definitely depends on which headphones. The HD 560 S need an amp to get the full potential out of them.

The HD560S is a bad headphone because of narrow soundstage. I can hardly recommend that one. Not it does only have narrow soundstage, it's also fatiguing really quickly.

 

The good ones are:

Fidelio X2HR

Tygr 300R

DT880 250ohm

 

Where are you from? Beyerdynamic Amiron Home is an excellent headphone too:

https://www.newegg.com/black-beyerdynamic-717525-earbud/p/N82E16826380026

[Tigerleon]

46 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

The HD560S is a bad headphone because of narrow soundstage.

The soundstage isn't that bad is it. Or have you tried? As for the fatigue it depends on the music you're listening to.

[Spuriae]

37 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

The HD560S is a bad headphone because of narrow soundstage. I can hardly recommend that one. Not it does only have narrow soundstage, it's also fatiguing really quickly.

 

The good ones are:

Fidelio X2HR

Tygr 300R

DT880 250ohm

 

Where are you from? Beyerdynamic Amiron Home is an excellent headphone too:

https://www.newegg.com/black-beyerdynamic-717525-earbud/p/N82E16826380026

The 560S is more fatiguing than the HD650, but the DT880 and Tygr are generally agreed to be particularly fatiguing headphones.

 

Perhaps you're referring to something other than listening fatigue as it is normally defined (discomfort from heightened treble, usually 5-10kHz)?

[Memphills2]

4 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

The differences between two similar-sounding headphones are larger than the differences between the same headphone plugged into a dac/amp vs. the average motherboard, except in a handful of edge cases (extremely efficient/inefficient or extremely high/low impedance headphones). A $200 headphone plugged into a motherboard is generally more ideal than a $100 headphone plugged into the best dac/amp in the world. (Speaking of which, what motherboard do you have? Is there anything wrong with it? Do you get audible noise with your current headphones?)

 

Unless something is wrong with your current motherboard, I normally recommend buying the headphones you like and deciding if you want to keep them long-term before upgrading electronics. Different headphones have different power needs, and deciding on the electronics before the headphones is backwards to me.

 

As for headphones, what do you like/dislike about the HyperX Clouds, and what changes would you want in the new headphones? See the glossary of audio terms here if you're feeling adventurous. What volume settings do you listen at? Do you use EQ?

 

Keeping in mind that price isn't always correleated with sound quality, and that beyond the ~$150 mark nowadays much of sound quality is really down to personal preference, my list of recommended open backs under $300 goes something like this, in a rough order of ascending spiciness:

• Sennheiser HD650/6XX ($220). Not much soundstage. Decent imaging. Limited bass extension with a touch of bloat, but otherwise tonally excellent. Among the best timbre of any headphone, at any budget. The most accurate mid/treble detail on this list, but not a ton of it. Swapping back and forth with other headphones, you'll rarely hear "new" details that you didn't hear before; instead you'll become painfully aware of how fake-sounding some of the "detail" on other headphones is. The headphone everyone seems to have one of, no matter how expensive the rest of their setup is, and for good reason.
• Sennheiser HD58X ($170). Gives up a bit of the pros of the HD650 for slight improvements with some of the cons. Some would argue that it loses the mid tonality and treble smoothness that makes the HD650 so remarkable.
• Sennheiser HD560S ($180). Better soundstage than either of the above. Marginally larger but less precise soundstage than the K612; much larger soundstage than the above. Tonally similar to the 58x, with better bass extension but generally elevated and peakier upper treble. The current flavor of the month.
• AKG K612 ($150). Neutral. Good soundstage and imaging. Nothing remarkable, nothing to complain about. Brighter than the above. Clean response throughout with less bass quantity but good extension. I doubt these are the "ideal" headphone for anyone, but I doubt they're a bad choice for anyone either. A good EQ candidate.
• Hifiman HE400SE ($150). May need an amplifier to get loud enough. Decent soundstage, average imaging. The cleanest-sounding bass on this list, being a planar. More laid-back, perhaps to the point of lacking clarity. Timbre is iffy but perhaps not too noticeable without another good pair of headphones to reference to. Physically heavy.
• Beyerdynamic DT990/Tygr ($180). You like fun. You like big bass and treble. You've never gotten listening fatigue ever before. You like big soundstage. You can have all that at the expense of recessed mids, muddy bass, and overemphasized (some would say painful) treble. Initially impressive-sounding, but not something I would want to listen to every day. The sound profile is well-suited for gaming. The 32Ω models will need a low output impedance amplifier to minimize bass bloat.

That's not to say that there aren't others. A number of flavors-of-the-month have fallen by the wayside but still may be ideal for certain listeners (such as T50RP and Fidelio X2). There are some other headphones just outside the budget (such as R70X and Sundara) as well, though they're more different flavors than upgrades.

Thank you for the detailed reply. 

 

I own an Asus X470 Prime motherboard. Since its not the cheapest option it apparently has better insulation than most ordinary motherboards and on HyperX I didn't perceive any noise.

 

I have yet to own open-backs but I'm leaning towards HD560S due to supposed detailed highs and extended lows.

 

I liked HyperX because it was the best headset I've had and the overall upgrade in sound quality, although the heavier songs like heavy metal and operatic metal we're starting to sound muddy. Therefore, the supposed fast decay of HD560S is another appealing aspect. 

 

However, I don't know if HD560S would be appropriate for my genre of music. I mainly listen to heavy metal and operatic metal (Nightwish), but I also enjoy other stuff like Dear Hunter and orchestral.

 

I live in EU, but Amazon is really expensive in my country, so the other headphones I've seen available are HD559, 599, AKG K701, K702, Audio Tehnica AD700X, Beyer 990, which are basically all the brands I've looked at since I don't know the rest.

[CTR640]

2 hours ago, Tigerleon said:

The soundstage isn't that bad is it. Or have you tried? As for the fatigue it depends on the music you're listening to.

Yes, it is and I had the 560S. Otherwise I wouldn't said anything about it. And it was fatiguing in general, wether music or gaming.

 

2 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

The 560S is more fatiguing than the HD650, but the DT880 and Tygr are generally agreed to be particularly fatiguing headphones.

 

Perhaps you're referring to something other than listening fatigue as it is normally defined (discomfort from heightened treble, usually 5-10kHz)?

Ah yes, members on head-fi have indeed confirmed the 560S is more fatiguing than the HD6 series. I have the Tygr and it's not fatiguing at all. I had the DT880 and it's one of the best of the DT series. I had to sell it because of no space tho But not really sure if the heightened treble made me fatigue. I have the Klipsch Heritage HP-3 and the treble is silky smooth, not fatiguing at all. But this headphone is not really an average one.

[Spuriae]

2 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

the heavier songs like heavy metal and operatic metal we're starting to sound muddy. Therefore, the supposed fast decay of HD560S is another appealing aspect.

What type of decay were you thinking of?

 

On a drum, the initial hit is upper treble, and the reverberation of the membrane is bass. If the decay issue is that timing seems to be detached or smeared during intense sections, treble damping may actually be the most important characteristic. If the issue is low instruments and vocals seeming to linger longer than they should, then upper bass/low mids is the problem area.

 

On the HyperX Cloud, both of these regions are problematic.

 

If bass clarity is the main issue, planars may be a good bet while the DT990 might not be. If timing is an issue the HD650/6XX may be ideal while the K612 might not be. If both are an issue then one of the other options may be most ideal.

3 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

I have yet to own open-backs but I'm leaning towards HD560S due to supposed detailed highs and extended lows.

If KSC75's are available cheaply in your market they may be worth looking into just to get a taste without a large commitment. They have basically no low bass and minimal soundstage, but otherwise trade blows with the other products mentioned here. Not ideal as someone's only headphone, but certainly something anyone with a couple of different headphones ought to try, if only as a portable/sleeping product.

3 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

However, I don't know if HD560S would be appropriate for my genre of music. I mainly listen to heavy metal and operatic metal (Nightwish), but I also enjoy other stuff like Dear Hunter and orchestral.

Do you ever get treble discomfort listening to those genres with the HyperX Cloud? Do sibilant sounds like ss-noises and cymbals annoy you? I think the DT990/Tygr/DT880 is the only harsher option listed here in that respect. If those sounds don't annoy you at all, then I wouldn't saying anything here is necessarily a bad choice for those genres. If you are treble sensitive and listen to metal, then the options narrow down quite a bit.

 

Do female vocals and higher pitched instruments sound rich/natural to you with the HyperX Cloud? Any nasalness/hollowness/tinniness/closeness issues?

 

Do you game?

3 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

I live in EU, but Amazon is really expensive in my country, so the other headphones I've seen available are HD559, 599, AKG K701, K702, Audio Tehnica AD700X, Beyer 990, which are basically all the brands I've looked at since I don't know the rest.

Which country/stores can you use? Generally I'd say all of those are straight downgrades from one of the mentioned headphones, but I don't know what you have access to at what prices. For instance, if you like the mids and low treble on the Clouds and strongly value having tight yet impactful bass, then you'd ideally want a planar but maybe not the HE400SE, and availability of those can vary greatly by region.

 

[CTR640]

The Tygr has a very smooth sssibilance. The DT880 on the other hand a bit but still bearable. The DT990... I don't know anything about it but @Tigerleonand @rice gurucan tell more about it.

[Pc6777]

IMO get the senhizer HD 560s, it has a netural sound signature so it makes your music sound like its supposed to and dosnt have any "color". if you want a warmer headphone then get something else tho, but you can always use eq to adjust the sound if you need to. I prefer the neutrality but everyone likes a different sound. Get a usb c apple dongle as the dac(get a usb a to usb c adapter if your pc only has usb type a), and a JDS labs atom amp or monoprice liquid spark amp or maybe one of the budget schit amps . the apple dongle only gives one volt of signal instead of 2 to the amp, but the 560s arnt super hard to drive so it will still work. Ive heard mixed things about newer sound blaster stuff, idk about that. dont get some cheap garbage dac amp combo that you can never reuse for future upgrades, the apple dongle is fine as a dac until you have more money and escapes mobo interference and a good amp makes your setup future proof for more demanding headphones.

 

and the apple dongle measures exceedingly well for its price according to multiple sources, its great for 10 dollars and your on a budget, and the real money should go into the headphones and amp imo. if you get an amp that only has rca unputs you will need a little adpter cable to adapt 3.5 mm to rca.

and make sure not to get a knockoff or non apple branded apple dac/dongle, buy from a reputable source.

 

[Imannudein]

For gaming, i would go with the following:

 

1. Drop HE4xx or the new Hifiman SE400 <-- change the cable. stock one are so bad I might use it as cloth hanger

2. Cheap dac/amp combo like the FX audio Dac X6 Mk1, Mk2 or;

2a. Apple USB C to 3.5mm dongle -> male 3.5mm to RCA -> Schiit Magni Heresy or your choice of headphone amplifier that can accept RCA as input

3. Enjoy 

 

NB: For me, having an amplifier like the Heresy allows you to scale up later as the budget allows. You may even add a pair of studio monitors or multimedia speakers later. 

 

All the best! 

[rice guru]

5 hours ago, CTR640 said:

The Tygr has a very smooth sssibilance. The DT880 on the other hand a bit but still bearable. The DT990... I don't know anything about it but @Tigerleonand @rice gurucan tell more about it.

The 250 ohm 990 pro is peaky and unpleasant and when not amped properly. The thing requires more power than impedance suggests to sound ok. I would just stick to the 880or tygr here.

[Memphills2]

8 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

What type of decay were you thinking of?

 

On a drum, the initial hit is upper treble, and the reverberation of the membrane is bass. If the decay issue is that timing seems to be detached or smeared during intense sections, treble damping may actually be the most important characteristic. If the issue is low instruments and vocals seeming to linger longer than they should, then upper bass/low mids is the problem area.

 

On the HyperX Cloud, both of these regions are problematic.

 

If bass clarity is the main issue, planars may be a good bet while the DT990 might not be. If timing is an issue the HD650/6XX may be ideal while the K612 might not be. If both are an issue then one of the other options may be most ideal.

If KSC75's are available cheaply in your market they may be worth looking into just to get a taste without a large commitment. They have basically no low bass and minimal soundstage, but otherwise trade blows with the other products mentioned here. Not ideal as someone's only headphone, but certainly something anyone with a couple of different headphones ought to try, if only as a portable/sleeping product.

Do you ever get treble discomfort listening to those genres with the HyperX Cloud? Do sibilant sounds like ss-noises and cymbals annoy you? I think the DT990/Tygr/DT880 is the only harsher option listed here in that respect. If those sounds don't annoy you at all, then I wouldn't saying anything here is necessarily a bad choice for those genres. If you are treble sensitive and listen to metal, then the options narrow down quite a bit.

 

Do female vocals and higher pitched instruments sound rich/natural to you with the HyperX Cloud? Any nasalness/hollowness/tinniness/closeness issues?

 

Do you game?

Which country/stores can you use? Generally I'd say all of those are straight downgrades from one of the mentioned headphones, but I don't know what you have access to at what prices. For instance, if you like the mids and low treble on the Clouds and strongly value having tight yet impactful bass, then you'd ideally want a planar but maybe not the HE400SE, and availability of those can vary greatly by region.

 

Yes, I do play games fairly regularly (fps, rpg, lol), but music experience takes full priority imo and gaming comes second.

 

From what I've just seen online Hyperx Cloud Alpha has a very flas signature and I liked it. The lows were powerfull, but not too dominant. Although as I said the lows would start to sound just a little muddy when too much was going on at once.

 

The treble was there, not fatiguing over long sessions, but also a little too weak perhaps for my liking. The male voices were strong (particularly low ones like Dan Vasc), but female voices did lack a bit (old Nighwish songs). HyperX Cloud Alpha only has a significant dip on 4KHz, but I'm not sure which sounds are typically at that frequency.

 

Overall I liked HyperX Cloud Alpha because it had commanding lows and still show detail in the treble. Knowing that it has similarly flat signature like 560S makes them look like a good fit. Although the 560S will like have slightly less bass due to open-back design, which is a little bit of a downer. But it has a few spikes in treble region, meaning it will probably compensate for the lesser bass by improving on the highs, where I wanted a little bit more from HyperX.

 

Idk, tell me what ur take is on that. I'm not a new geek, but I am new to audio enthusiasm. The only thing keeping me hesitant with 560S is that some say they're "not exciting" and "meant for mixing - therefore not for general listening" die to the neutral signature. Although HyperX is also generally flat and I liked that. So...

 

[CTR640]

Openbacks doesn't have less bass?

[Memphills2]

1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

Openbacks doesn't have less bass?

Idk, I heard someone mention it. Don't know if there's any truth to it. 

[CTR640]

10 minutes ago, Memphills2 said:

Idk, I heard someone mention it. Don't know if there's any truth to it. 

Amiron Home is an openback and it's one of the most warmer sounding headphone. Tygr and X2HR openbacks too and they have plenty of bass.

[Memphills2]

1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

Amiron Home is an openback and it's one of the most warmer sounding headphone. Tygr and X2HR openbacks too and they have plenty of bass.

I like what I hear about X2HR, but they're unavailable in every store I've got access to. Thx for the reply tho

[CTR640]

9 minutes ago, Memphills2 said:

I like what I hear about X2HR, but they're unavailable in every store I've got access to. Thx for the reply tho

Where are you from? Have you tried eBay?

[Spuriae]

5 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

From what I've just seen online Hyperx Cloud Alpha has a very flas signature and I liked it. The lows were powerfull, but not too dominant. Although as I said the lows would start to sound just a little muddy when too much was going on at once.

You have a Cloud Alpha? My bad; I assumed you had the normal Clouds. What I said before doesn't change that much since they are fairly similar headphones.

 

The Cloud Alpha isn't neutral. It's more neutral than the average gaming headset, but further from neutral than basically every headphone anyone has mentioned in this thread so far, especially in the bass.

 

The Cloud Alpha sounds muddy because it has a upper bass peak 150-200Hz, so I will interpret this as you wanting low and mid bass but not wanting a high bass peak above 100Hz.

5 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

The treble was there, not fatiguing over long sessions, but also a little too weak perhaps for my liking. The male voices were strong (particularly low ones like Dan Vasc), but female voices did lack a bit (old Nighwish songs). HyperX Cloud Alpha only has a significant dip on 4KHz, but I'm not sure which sounds are typically at that frequency.

The top of the female vocal range is typically about 1kHz. The highest key on a piano is 4kHz. Basically, the treble region as it's typically depicted on a chart will affect things like harmonics, timbre, and transients, while the notes themselves are all in the bass and midrange. Male vocals are typically midbass to lower mids, while female vocals are upper bass to middle mids. I interpret the lacking female vocals as you wanting more content in the low-mid midrange 400Hz-1kHz.

 

Timbre largely lives in the upper mids and low treble, but is hard to accurately articulate in words alone. Unless you've noticed any issues with vocal hollowness/tinniness/aggressiveness/nasalness/thinness I won't make any conclusions about this range.

 

Perhaps counterintuitively, a good gauge of treble is a drum kit; the bite of a snare is upper treble; the initial impact of a cymbal is upper treble; the subsequent shimmer is a range of mid to high frequencies. If those don't stand out enough, you may want more upper treble; if they stand out too much, you may want less.

 

Another gauge of whether something has too much mid-treble is whether piercing sibilances like "ss" sounds, brass instrument overtones, cymbals are bothersome. This can occur anywhere in the 4kHz-8kHz range, and sensitivity to particular frequencies varies greatly from person to person.

 

Overall, I can't really make any conclusions about your treble preference yet.

 

The 4kHz dip on the HyperX Clouds is misleading. It's a resonance that prevents the first incidence of that frequency from being played properly, but subsequent reverberations of that sound make it to the ear. Because perceived intensity is integrated over time to some extent by the inner ear, this frequency really sounds about as loud as the surrounding frequencies, but mistimed (perhaps perceivable as vocals/instruments lacking finesse).

Spoiler

CSD graph of the Takstar Pro 80 (the headphone the HyperX Cloud was based on) from SBAF. Axes are frequency, level, and time. Note that at 4kHz, 0ms there is a sharp dip. However, beyond that dip the sound plays fine.

See also solderdude's measurements of the DT770, particularly the group delay and CSD graphs. The sharpness of the group delay notch helps explain why this effect is rarely visible in measurements, as we generally use level smoothing and ignore time domain effects.

 

Sharp dips of this type are much less audible than broad ones despite their magnitude, partially due to this time-masking effect, and partially due to frequency masking. I argue that such effects, while not immediately obvious in listening, are nonetheless still audible and always undesirable, though this isn't by any means a widely accepted interpretation.

If things seem inconsistent in the treble, feel free to link specific songs that you feel have too much or too little of certain instruments/aspects on the Cloud Alphas.

5 hours ago, Memphills2 said:

Overall I liked HyperX Cloud Alpha because it had commanding lows and still show detail in the treble. Knowing that it has similarly flat signature like 560S makes them look like a good fit. Although the 560S will like have slightly less bass due to open-back design, which is a little bit of a downer. But it has a few spikes in treble region, meaning it will probably compensate for the lesser bass by improving on the highs, where I wanted a little bit more from HyperX.

Based on what you've said so far, based only on the assumptions that you want bass quantity but not an upper bass peak, and want mode mid to upper mids:

• I think the 560S is a decent match for you, at least in the lows and mids. It has good bass extension with minimal elevation in the upper bass and low mids, and has broadly more mid-mids than the Cloud Alphas. The bass quantity will be less than you're used to, though.
• The DT990/Tygr will have more powerful bass but is a bit more elevated in the upper bass, which may sound a bit muddy to some, but certainly nowhere near as bad as on the Alphas. It's really a tradeoff of clean vs powerful bass. If you use EQ the HD560S mights still be preferable. As far as mids go it has a dip in the female vocal range, which I don't think you want.
• The DT880 will almost definitely have too much upper bass (relative to the rest of the bass).
• The K612/K701/K702 probably won't have enough bass for you without EQ.
• The AD700X definitely won't have enough bass.
• The X2 could be a good fit; too bad it's not an option.
• The bass peak on the HD650 is probably too high-frequency for your liking.
• The HD559/599 bass peaks are definitely too high-frequency.
• The HE400SE is ideal below 1kHz, but the lack of upper mid presence might cause it to feel too laid-back.

[Memphills2]

15 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

You have a Cloud Alpha? My bad; I assumed you had the normal Clouds. What I said before doesn't change that much since they are fairly similar headphones.

 

The Cloud Alpha isn't neutral. It's more neutral than the average gaming headset, but further from neutral than basically every headphone anyone has mentioned in this thread so far, especially in the bass.

 

The Cloud Alpha sounds muddy because it has a upper bass peak 150-200Hz, so I will interpret this as you wanting low and mid bass but not wanting a high bass peak above 100Hz.

The top of the female vocal range is typically about 1kHz. The highest key on a piano is 4kHz. Basically, the treble region as it's typically depicted on a chart will affect things like harmonics, timbre, and transients, while the notes themselves are all in the bass and midrange. Male vocals are typically midbass to lower mids, while female vocals are upper bass to middle mids. I interpret the lacking female vocals as you wanting more content in the low-mid midrange 400Hz-1kHz.

 

Timbre largely lives in the upper mids and low treble, but is hard to accurately articulate in words alone. Unless you've noticed any issues with vocal hollowness/tinniness/aggressiveness/nasalness/thinness I won't make any conclusions about this range.

 

Perhaps counterintuitively, a good gauge of treble is a drum kit; the bite of a snare is upper treble; the initial impact of a cymbal is upper treble; the subsequent shimmer is a range of mid to high frequencies. If those don't stand out enough, you may want more upper treble; if they stand out too much, you may want less.

 

Another gauge of whether something has too much mid-treble is whether piercing sibilances like "ss" sounds, brass instrument overtones, cymbals are bothersome. This can occur anywhere in the 4kHz-8kHz range, and sensitivity to particular frequencies varies greatly from person to person.

 

Overall, I can't really make any conclusions about your treble preference yet.

 

The 4kHz dip on the HyperX Clouds is misleading. It's a resonance that prevents the first incidence of that frequency from being played properly, but subsequent reverberations of that sound make it to the ear. Because perceived intensity is integrated over time to some extent by the inner ear, this frequency really sounds about as loud as the surrounding frequencies, but mistimed (perhaps perceivable as vocals/instruments lacking finesse).

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CSD graph of the Takstar Pro 80 (the headphone the HyperX Cloud was based on) from SBAF. Axes are frequency, level, and time. Note that at 4kHz, 0ms there is a sharp dip. However, beyond that dip the sound plays fine.

See also solderdude's measurements of the DT770, particularly the group delay and CSD graphs. The sharpness of the group delay notch helps explain why this effect is rarely visible in measurements, as we generally use level smoothing and ignore time domain effects.

 

Sharp dips of this type are much less audible than broad ones despite their magnitude, partially due to this time-masking effect, and partially due to frequency masking. I argue that such effects, while not immediately obvious in listening, are nonetheless still audible and always undesirable, though this isn't by any means a widely accepted interpretation.

If things seem inconsistent in the treble, feel free to link specific songs that you feel have too much or too little of certain instruments/aspects on the Cloud Alphas.

Based on what you've said so far, based only on the assumptions that you want bass quantity but not an upper bass peak, and want mode mid to upper mids:

• I think the 560S is a decent match for you, at least in the lows and mids. It has good bass extension with minimal elevation in the upper bass and low mids, and has broadly more mid-mids than the Cloud Alphas. The bass quantity will be less than you're used to, though.
• The DT990/Tygr will have more powerful bass but is a bit more elevated in the upper bass, which may sound a bit muddy to some, but certainly nowhere near as bad as on the Alphas. It's really a tradeoff of clean vs powerful bass. If you use EQ the HD560S mights still be preferable. As far as mids go it has a dip in the female vocal range, which I don't think you want.
• The DT880 will almost definitely have too much upper bass (relative to the rest of the bass).
• The K612/K701/K702 probably won't have enough bass for you without EQ.
• The AD700X definitely won't have enough bass.
• The X2 could be a good fit; too bad it's not an option.
• The bass peak on the HD650 is probably too high-frequency for your liking.
• The HD559/599 bass peaks are definitely too high-frequency.
• The HE400SE is ideal below 1kHz, but the lack of upper-mid presence might cause it to feel too laid-back.

Wow, u know ur stuff. I needed some time to digest all this, but it was pleasantly informative.

 

Forget everything I've said about store availability. Amazon UK is available to me with sometimes free shipping. So anything there is greenlit. 

 

I've heard good things about X2HR and it's totally an option. As for an amp I've narrowed it down to Atom and Liquid Spark. What are ur thoughts?

 

Edit: I'm deciding between X2HR and 560S and leaning towards JDS Atom Stack. I'm just wondering if 100$ on DAC is better than swapping out 560S for something different. 

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X2HR doesn't need an amp.