Bizarre stuttering issue in new SFF build - troubleshooted exhaustively and at a loss. Probable motherboard issue?

[badatvideogames]

Hi all,

 

I would greatly appreciate any guidance as far as what to do next with this build. I have tried other forums and have received little response - SOS!

 

To keep the root issue relatively short - I just built an ultra SFF PC and it produces some pretty severe video and audio stuttering from the GPU output. At it's best, the stutter is limited to audio and can be bypassed through the motherboard line out. At it's worst (which it is at most of the time), both the display and audio stutter to a near unusable degree. 

 

I troubleshooted quite extensively and narrowed the issue to most likely be the motherboard, but I will expand on that below. 

 

Here's the kicker: Putting the GPU under load seems to mitigate the problems. Bizarrely, games run fairly well. It's the light use - web browsing, video streaming, even just moving the cursor on the desktop - that seems to yield problems. 

 

System Specs:

• Gigabyte Aorus b540i

• Ryzen 5 2400g

• PowerColor ITX 5600XT

• SilverStone FX500 Flex ATX PSU

• 16GB (2x8) Corsair Vengeance LPX 2400 

• Silicon Power 512GB NVMe M.2 

• SGPC K39 Case

What I've already tried and probably eliminated as the source of the issue:

• Tried the GPU and it's accompanying pcie riser cable in a different machine - it runs just fine even without installing any AMD drivers, at idle and under load. (Need the riser because the build in question is so small).
• Tried running a different GPU in the build in question. A GTX 1660. Couldn't even get output from this. 
• Tried running integrated graphics from the 2400g. No issues there whatsoever - presumably rules out a CPU/memory issue. 
• Updated/rolled back/reinstalled every possible software - BIOS /Windows 10/ Radeon Drivers, nothing helps. 
• Tried different cables (wish it were that easy)
• Toggled various display settings including VSync, resolution, refresh rate, etc. 
• Checked temps - these were actually pretty good, even under load in such a small build.
• Changed power plan settings in windows. No noticeable differences between them.
• Slightly overvolted/overclocked the GPU for lower frequencies. Given that the issue seems to go away when the GPU is under load, I figured this might help. It didn't. 

Other peculiar nuances that may be of use:

• When streaming video through a browser, the stuttering isn't just simply frame drops. Sometimes the video pane will "split" with one half of the video completely frozen and the other half a jittery mess. It leaves the rest of the page alone, however. 
• When I attempted to boot the machine for the very first time, I could not get any output from the GPU. I later realized that, for some reason, the GPU refuses to output anything not produced by Windows 10. In other words, I can't see the BIOS through the GPU, nor does the system startup loading screen display at all. In order to see these, I have to switch to integrated graphics. 
• I mentioned it above, but I wanted to reiterate because it is so weird: I could not get any output whatsoever from my GTX 1660 when I tried it in this build. Strange. 

As a final note, as I mentioned, I believe the motherboard to be the culprit here. I am not sure how to distinguish the hardware vs software in this case however. The issue could feasibly be the PSU as well, I suppose. Again I am not exactly sure how to reliably test that, however, without completely tearing apart both of my machines. 

 

I apologize for the lengthy post, and I greatly greatly greatly appreciate any help that may come from this. I've been driving myself mad for the past two weeks trying to figure this out. Thank you so much!!!

 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

14 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

Hi all,

 

I would greatly appreciate any guidance as far as what to do next with this build. I have tried other forums and have received little response - SOS!

 

To keep the root issue relatively short - I just built an ultra SFF PC and it produces some pretty severe video and audio stuttering from the GPU output. At it's best, the stutter is limited to audio and can be bypassed through the motherboard line out. At it's worst (which it is at most of the time), both the display and audio stutter to a near unusable degree. 

 

I troubleshooted quite extensively and narrowed the issue to most likely be the motherboard, but I will expand on that below. 

 

Here's the kicker: Putting the GPU under load seems to mitigate the problems. Bizarrely, games run fairly well. It's the light use - web browsing, video streaming, even just moving the cursor on the desktop - that seems to yield problems. 

 

System Specs:

• Gigabyte Aorus b540i

• Ryzen 5 2400g

• PowerColor ITX 5600XT

• SilverStone FX500 Flex ATX PSU

• 16GB (2x8) Corsair Vengeance LPX 2400 

• Silicon Power 512GB NVMe M.2 

• SGPC K39 Case

What I've already tried and probably eliminated as the source of the issue:

• Tried the GPU and it's accompanying pcie riser cable in a different machine - it runs just fine even without installing any AMD drivers, at idle and under load. (Need the riser because the build in question is so small).
• Tried running a different GPU in the build in question. A GTX 1660. Couldn't even get output from this. 
• Tried running integrated graphics from the 2400g. No issues there whatsoever - presumably rules out a CPU/memory issue. 
• Updated/rolled back/reinstalled every possible software - BIOS /Windows 10/ Radeon Drivers, nothing helps. 
• Tried different cables (wish it were that easy)
• Toggled various display settings including VSync, resolution, refresh rate, etc. 
• Checked temps - these were actually pretty good, even under load in such a small build.
• Changed power plan settings in windows. No noticeable differences between them.
• Slightly overvolted/overclocked the GPU for lower frequencies. Given that the issue seems to go away when the GPU is under load, I figured this might help. It didn't. 

Other peculiar nuances that may be of use:

• When streaming video through a browser, the stuttering isn't just simply frame drops. Sometimes the video pane will "split" with one half of the video completely frozen and the other half a jittery mess. It leaves the rest of the page alone, however. 
• When I attempted to boot the machine for the very first time, I could not get any output from the GPU. I later realized that, for some reason, the GPU refuses to output anything not produced by Windows 10. In other words, I can't see the BIOS through the GPU, nor does the system startup loading screen display at all. In order to see these, I have to switch to integrated graphics. 
• I mentioned it above, but I wanted to reiterate because it is so weird: I could not get any output whatsoever from my GTX 1660 when I tried it in this build. Strange. 

As a final note, as I mentioned, I believe the motherboard to be the culprit here. I am not sure how to distinguish the hardware vs software in this case however. The issue could feasibly be the PSU as well, I suppose. Again I am not exactly sure how to reliably test that, however, without completely tearing apart both of my machines. 

 

I apologize for the lengthy post, and I greatly greatly greatly appreciate any help that may come from this. I've been driving myself mad for the past two weeks trying to figure this out. Thank you so much!!!

 

 

 

This says possible GPU driver to me not the actual hardware of the motherboard.  Weird Ryzen stuff is apparently commonly fixed by clearing cmos, DDUing drivers, and updating bios.  Basically clearing all possible motherboard cruft.  Might be worth trying before spending on a different motherboard.

[IkeaGnome]

34 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

Gigabyte Aorus b540i

Assuming you mean a B450i. 

 

35 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

Tried the GPU and it's accompanying pcie riser cable in a different machine - it runs just fine even without installing any AMD drivers, at idle and under load. (Need the riser because the build in question is so small).

What happened when you build the computer on the motherboard box, did it POST just fine? If not, I'd try this and not use the Riser. There's a chance you need to go into BIOS and change PCIE mode. 

 

36 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

Tried running a different GPU in the build in question. A GTX 1660. Couldn't even get output from this.

This helps reinforce above. I wonder if you're in PCIE 4.0 mode in your BIOS, but gen 3 riser.

37 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

When I attempted to boot the machine for the very first time, I could not get any output from the GPU. I later realized that, for some reason, the GPU refuses to output anything not produced by Windows 10. In other words, I can't see the BIOS through the GPU, nor does the system startup loading screen display at all. In order to see these, I have to switch to integrated graphics. 

This also reinforces above. If you're using a gen 3 cable in 4.0 mode on your motherboard, you have to wait until drivers take over to help with compatibility.

 

38 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

I mentioned it above, but I wanted to reiterate because it is so weird: I could not get any output whatsoever from my GTX 1660 when I tried it in this build. Strange.

1660 doesn't support PCIE 4.0.

39 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

PowerColor ITX 5600XT

Supports PCIE 4.0, but is backwards compatible with 3.0.

40 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

SGPC K39 Case

Comes with PCIE 3.0 riser and has this note. 

 

 

TLDR: Boot into BIOS off integrated graphics and set PCIE mode to 3.0

[badatvideogames]

59 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Assuming you mean a B450i. 

 

What happened when you build the computer on the motherboard box, did it POST just fine? If not, I'd try this and not use the Riser. There's a chance you need to go into BIOS and change PCIE mode. 

 

This helps reinforce above. I wonder if you're in PCIE 4.0 mode in your BIOS, but gen 3 riser.

This also reinforces above. If you're using a gen 3 cable in 4.0 mode on your motherboard, you have to wait until drivers take over to help with compatibility.

 

1660 doesn't support PCIE 4.0.

Supports PCIE 4.0, but is backwards compatible with 3.0.

Comes with PCIE 3.0 riser and has this note. 

 

 

TLDR: Boot into BIOS off integrated graphics and set PCIE mode to 3.0

This has by far been the most helpful answer I have received. Almost hit the nail on the head! (I think). Thank you so so so much! However, there are now a few more oddities to note.

 

First off, yes I meant B450i. Finger must have slipped

 

Secondly, I checked my BIOS and noticed there is no option to force PCIE 4.0. However, after doing a bit of research, it seems as though my BIOS version does indeed support PCIE 4.0 - presumably the "auto" option will use 4.0 by default, should it be supported by the GPU.

 

So, I went ahead and forced the "Gen 3" option instead. Much to my disappointment, this didn't fix the issue.

 

But, as a last resort, I figured I would also try PCIE 2.0, just for curiosity's sake.... and boom. That seemed to fix the stuttering. I have NO IDEA why. 

 

That being said, I still can't boot into BIOS from the GPU display, and I'm afraid to disable the iGPU outright for fear of softlocking myself out of it BIOS entirely.

 

I guess problem sort of solved? I presumably won't see much of a performance drop using pcie 2.0 since the card isn't THAT powerful, right? 

 

I could also roll back my BIOS version to a point where 4.0 wasn't supported at all... but I'm not sure if that is worth it. 

 

Thank you again.

 

[IkeaGnome]

1 minute ago, badatvideogames said:

So, I went ahead and forced the "Gen 3" option instead. Much to my disappointment, this didn't fix the issue.

From here I would be thinking about updates to the motherboard. Specifically the chipset. Grab the APU driver down below. It should have other chipset updates for the motherboard bundled in. 

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B450-I-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10/support#support-dl-driver-chipset

Spoiler

 

4 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

That being said, I still can't boot into BIOS from the GPU display, and I'm afraid to disable the iGPU outright for fear of softlocking myself out of it BIOS entirely.

I wouldn't disable it. Especially once you get everything to run by default over your GPU. You'll notice almost no performance loss and still have use of the APU for troubleshooting. From here I would boot off the iGPU and download the drivers for the 5600xt. 

What cable are you using to connect to your display? Sometimes DP needs drivers to start up to get into BIOS. If you're using that I'd try with a HDMI cable.

8 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

I could also roll back my BIOS version to a point where 4.0 wasn't supported at all... but I'm not sure if that is worth it. 

I wouldn't worry about that. Speed differences between 2.0 and 3.0 aren't that great, but noticeable enough that it'd be nice to get you working on 3.0. PCIE 3.0 supports 8.0 GT/S while 2.0 is 5.0 GT/s. 

11 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

First off, yes I meant B450i. Finger must have slipped

I kind of figured. It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. 
 

13 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

I figured I would also try PCIE 2.0, just for curiosity's sake.... and boom. 

I would also give the riser cable a good look. I'd pull it out, make sure there's no kinks or missing wire shielding. When you reinstall everything make sure it goes all the way in. Not all risers will click into the PCIE slot on the motherboard. It could feel like it's all the way in, and was, but by the time you ran cables and everything else, you bumped it slightly out of the slot. Bad connection somewhere could be why 2.0 works but not 3.0.

[Bombastinator]

B450 came out before pcie4 so it doesn’t officially use it at all but some motherboards have bios versions that can do it anyway with varying degrees of success. Pcie4 on B450 is at best hackery and weird. Pcie4 has tougher physics requirements and not all boards are up to it.  Setting everything to pcie3 may be the better part of valor here.

[badatvideogames]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

B450 came out before pcie4 so it doesn’t officially use it at all but some motherboards have bios versions that can do it anyway with varying degrees of success. Pcie4 on B450 is at best hackery and weird. Pcie4 has tougher physics requirements and not all boards are up to it.  Setting everything to pcie3 may be the better part of valor here.

Hey thank you for both of your replies! Did some more tinkering and unfortunately, PCIE 3.0 is not working as well as PCIE 2.0. Perhaps I've got a faulty riser cable, or worse, a faulty PCIE slot. The good news is, I've got a solution I can live with for now!

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

Hey thank you for both of your replies! Did some more tinkering and unfortunately, PCIE 3.0 is not working as well as PCIE 2.0. Perhaps I've got a faulty riser cable, or worse, a faulty PCIE slot. The good news is, I've got a solution I can live with for now!

That is a bit messed up risers are often a weak point.  I don’t personally know of ANY pcie4 capable risers. I’m not very well informed necessarily so that doesn’t mean there aren’t any but it does imply that risers aren’t the easiest things to produce.  Perhaps test without the riser and see if this is still true.

[badatvideogames]

2 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

From here I would be thinking about updates to the motherboard. Specifically the chipset. Grab the APU driver down below. It should have other chipset updates for the motherboard bundled in. 

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B450-I-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10/support#support-dl-driver-chipset

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I wouldn't disable it. Especially once you get everything to run by default over your GPU. You'll notice almost no performance loss and still have use of the APU for troubleshooting. From here I would boot off the iGPU and download the drivers for the 5600xt. 

What cable are you using to connect to your display? Sometimes DP needs drivers to start up to get into BIOS. If you're using that I'd try with a HDMI cable.

I wouldn't worry about that. Speed differences between 2.0 and 3.0 aren't that great, but noticeable enough that it'd be nice to get you working on 3.0. PCIE 3.0 supports 8.0 GT/S while 2.0 is 5.0 GT/s. 

I kind of figured. It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. 
 

I would also give the riser cable a good look. I'd pull it out, make sure there's no kinks or missing wire shielding. When you reinstall everything make sure it goes all the way in. Not all risers will click into the PCIE slot on the motherboard. It could feel like it's all the way in, and was, but by the time you ran cables and everything else, you bumped it slightly out of the slot. Bad connection somewhere could be why 2.0 works but not 3.0.

As an update, updating the chipset drivers *kind of maybe?* helped stabilize performance, but I was still left with some audio crackle and frame drops.

 

I also firmly secured all connections and (very carefully) adjusted the riser cable while I was playing a youtube video just to test, but I couldn't reliably produce any correlative negative performance results.

 

I ended up reverting to PCIE 2.0 and lo and behold, the issues went away. It's such a bummer that this is the only concrete solution I have on an otherwise decently powerful system, but it's usable at least.

 

I could have a faulty PCIE slot or simply a finicky riser cable, but I can't know for sure unless I pull the whole motherboard out of the case; since this thing is so tiny, the gpu won't fit unless riser(ed) to the other side. 

 

Given the pain that it is to work with a build so small, that will have to wait for another day. Just glad I can at least use this thing normally without getting a headache now!

 

[IkeaGnome]

10 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

ANY pcie4 capable risers

There's some floating around. Mostly for SFF builds. They aren't cheap though.

https://linkup.one/pcie-4-0-riser-cables-ultra/

3 minutes ago, badatvideogames said:

I could have a faulty PCIE slot or simply a finicky riser cable, but I can't know for sure unless I pull the whole motherboard out of the case; since this thing is so tiny, the gpu won't fit unless riser(ed) to the other side. 

It's more likely to be the riser cable than a slot. I'd go to the store you bought the case from and ask for a replacement riser. I couldn't find the manufacturer of that case to go directly to them.

 

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

There's some floating around. Mostly for SFF builds. They aren't cheap though.

https://linkup.one/pcie-4-0-riser-cables-ultra/

It's more likely to be the riser cable than a slot. I'd go to the store you bought the case from and ask for a replacement riser. I couldn't find the manufacturer of that case to go directly to them.

 

Interesting.  They don’t LOOK any different from decent pcie3 cables.  To the point I would want to test them before committing.  I was half expecting to see only non flexible 90° things.

[IkeaGnome]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Interesting.  They don’t LOOK any different from decent pcie3 cables.  To the point I would want to test them before committing.  I was half expecting to see only non flexible 90° things.

AS far as I know, the wiring point a to point b is the same. There is more shielding and I think through solder types, better connections and possibly thicker wires for less resistance and background noise. 

If you mean like the 90° riser on my GPU below, I think they tend to be more case specific. They could still be an option for @badatvideogamesif they were to measure how long they need it to be. 

https://www.amazon.com/JXSZ-Express-90-Degree-Right-Angle-Extension/dp/B07P3MCZYZ

Spoiler

 

Edit: do note that the OP wouldn't want the one I linked above. The GPU would essentially be backwards, fans down facing CPU cooler.