Klark Teknik CL-1 and CM-1

[kasugatei]

This is mostly question for @Derkoli and @The Flying Sloth, but if anybody else knows the definite answer let me know.

From outside looks it seems that CT-1 == Fethead and CM-1 == Cloudlifter.

Did you ever encounter gut shots from those units on some audio related forums etc? My Google skills did not provide any results and I am not member of any of those forums.

Both are obviously copies of another designs, but I would like to know for sure.

 

[The Flying Sloth]

My money would be on them being internally identical, all tests I have seen put them in the exact same place (sonically) as their more expensive counterparts but when I get home I'll see if there is any information to contradict this.

[The Flying Sloth]

Yeah, the user guide is shared between the CT1, CM1 and CM2, specs are identical, at this point I'm fairly certain they're all electrically identical.
 

[Derkoli]

13 hours ago, Niksa said:

This is mostly question for @Derkoli and @The Flying Sloth, but if anybody else knows the definite answer let me know.

From outside looks it seems that CT-1 == Fethead and CM-1 == Cloudlifter.

Did you ever encounter gut shots from those units on some audio related forums etc? My Google skills did not provide any results and I am not member of any of those forums.

Both are obviously copies of another designs, but I would like to know for sure.

 

I've actually used a CT-1 before. It's a perfectly fine mic pre-amp, but it obviously isn't as good as some other, bulkier solutions.

 

I'm not sure if they're actually a "copy" as per such, or if they are just the same type of product. Then again, I'm not perfectly sure.

 

I've never seen any complaints about either the CT-1 or the CM-1 on any forum I partake in.

[kasugatei]

Thanks guys for replies. Since those two products popped up after Music tribe bought the brand I just have to assume that they followed the same "R&D" practices as their other brands which is usually "just copy it". For me as a customer is great thing because I can get expensive stuff cheap. I currently can't get my hands to any of them as they are not being sold in the country where I live in currently, but other higher end Klark Teknik stuff is readily available. Also all web retailers which are willing to send to my place have their stock sold out.

 

My question was mostly aimed to fill my curiosity not to question their business practices or build quality. Cheers

[The Flying Sloth]

46 minutes ago, Niksa said:

Thanks guys for replies. Since those two products popped up after Music tribe bought the brand I just have to assume that they followed the same "R&D" practices as their other brands which is usually "just copy it". For me as a customer is great thing because I can get expensive stuff cheap. I currently can't get my hands to any of them as they are not being sold in the country where I live in currently, but other higher end Klark Teknik stuff is readily available. Also all web retailers which are willing to send to my place have their stock sold out.

 

My question was mostly aimed to fill my curiosity not to question their business practices or build quality. Cheers

They're on backorder at Thomann but they're usually fairly quick to get stock and mail it out. Once the pandemic is sorted and their flat rate shipping comes back I'll be putting through a bulk order.

[H713]

They're probably almost the same thing, in fact they're probably using the same chip from TI / AD / THAT, at which point it becomes an issue of implementation. 

 

I've never actually cracked one open- do they just use an SSM2019 and a balanced line driver? That's probably how I'd do it, but maybe someone has come out with a differential amplifier chip with noise specs suitable for this.

[kasugatei]

Cloudlifter uses dual LSK389 chips which are basically dual matched low noise N-Channel JFETs in a SOIC8 package. 
 

Fethead is literally 2 N-Channel JFETs (2SK170BL) and 4 resistors. 
 

Also Cloudlifter uses SMD components while Fethead uses through hole components. IMHO SMD is superior for this application because SMD circuit is much more resistant to noise caused by RF interference. 

[The Flying Sloth]

19 minutes ago, Niksa said:

Cloudlifter uses dual LSK389 chips which are basically dual matched low noise N-Channel JFETs in a SOIC8 package. 
 

Fethead is literally 2 N-Channel JFETs (2SK170BL) and 4 resistors. 
 

Also Cloudlifter uses SMD components while Fethead uses through hole components. IMHO SMD is superior for this application because SMD circuit is much more resistant to noise caused by RF interference. 

I've personally had experience with both (though not both at the same time) and beyond the extra 5DB gain I've found them to be functionally identical, the Fethead is perhaps a little cleaner, as in all it does is boost the gain where the Cloudlifter seems to impact tone marginally (or I could even be imagining it since I haven't AB tested). From my experience I would purchase a CT1 over either more expensive option every day of the week since it does the same thing for much less but if my choice were between the higher end two I would go with the fethead, it's clear, it does what it says it does and I like ribbons.

[kasugatei]

13 minutes ago, The Flying Sloth said:

I've personally had experience with both (though not both at the same time) and beyond the extra 5DB gain I've found them to be functionally identical, the Fethead is perhaps a little cleaner, as in all it does is boost the gain where the Cloudlifter seems to impact tone marginally (or I could even be imagining it since I haven't AB tested). From my experience I would purchase a CT1 over either more expensive option every day of the week since it does the same thing for much less but if my choice were between the higher end two I would go with the fethead, it's clear, it does what it says it does and I like ribbons.

Anyhow, I would say that both Fethead and Cloudlifter are overpriced for something that is a textbook example of how to use JFETs. So basically R&D did not take much time and money for both devices. Personally, CT1 is the most interesting solution for me because of its form factor and its price. Right now I have more free time because of the COVID so I decided to do some experiments with audio where I would benefit from having some extra gain. 
I was also thinking about going DIY way because I don’t want to pay 80+ bucks for 2 JFETs and 4 resistors. I have experience designing a bit more complicated machines so I was just thinking what circuits are out there so I can cherry pick features which I like from them without spending too much time trying to re-invent hot water

[HenrySalayne]

58 minutes ago, Niksa said:

Anyhow, I would say that both Fethead and Cloudlifter are overpriced for something that is a textbook example of how to use JFETs.

No, they are not. The market for these specialized tools is quite small, marketing and distribution is really expensive and you need a healthy margin to sustain a business.

Nevertheless, you could build something like this easily by yourself. Check out Elliott Sound Products for some examples and you could use something like Neutrik modules to build a simple in-line audio LNA - even with switchable gain.

[kasugatei]

21 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

No, they are not.

Agree to disagree. If there were no other solutions on the market then you can name your price and consumer will be in position “take it or leave it”. However, we have 2 Klark Teknik devices which should be the same or marginally worse than Cloudlifter or Fethead for significantly less money, so I as a consumer will look to get the best value for my money and in this case it would be Klark Teknik. I understand what you are saying is from the manufacturer perspective, however when we look from the global market perspective as consumers and take a look at the competition, then they are overpriced because competition is offering virtually the same thing for less money. 
I am not even taking into consideration that BOM of both devices is 20$ max for average consumer and that someone with decent electronic skills can replicate those devices for cheap price. 

[H713]

Not overpriced at all, if they're using those Linear Systems JFETs. Those are NOT cheap parts. Once you factor in the enclosure / manufacturing costs, low volume and the "pro audio" tax (which is to say, it needs to be high quality and reliable), then I'd say that none of these are unreasonably expensive.

 

Klark Teknik is owned by the same parent company as Behringer. Just like the Midas of today is a far cry from the Midas of 30 years ago, the KT of today is not what it once was. Pro audio is a place where ultra-low-cost is not the primary concern in most cases. 

 

I've heard this argument all the time about pro audio equipment. People in the consumer world call Neutrik XLR connectors "overpriced" and L-Acoustics amplifiers "overpriced" and what have you. Let's not forget, however, that a serious fault during a live performance could cost a venue $150,000 in refunded tickets. Cheap junk can cost a lot of money in the wrong circumstances.

 

For your own use, there's nothing all that difficult about building a microphone preamp. I've built a few at this point, and it's not like I'm all that smart. If you're thinking about doing so, spend the $80 on a copy of Small Signal Audio Design by Douglas Self. It's well worth the price. 80% of what Douglas Self talks about in that book is the stuff that does not get covered during a typical 4-year EE degree program.

 

I suspect you will find that it is MUCH easier to have a successful BJT design for this. JFETs can be tricky to get right in a mic preamp, and they're quite expensive these days.

 

If you dig around online, the schematics for most of the good analog mixing consoles are available, and a lot of them had very good microphone preamps in them, though they're less suited for inline usage. If I remember correctly, the mic preamp from the Crest V12 console is very similar to the one in the Gamble EX56 (though most of the Crest consoles didn't have the transformer). It's a good design that you may consider playing with.

 

Lastly, designing a halfway decent microphone preamp around the SSM2019 is like falling off a log. The Analog Devices datasheet practically tells you how to do it.