Dark Matter

[NerdNinja]

As requested by @lucky74dog I have created this thread to discuss the existence of dark matter and whether or not I make up the empty space of our universe. This is also to keep the thread Experiences With non-techies from derailing like with the hhd weight incident.

 

So without further ado have at it guys!(read next part in cool announcer voice) Does Dark Matter exist? Does it make up the dark void of our universe? Are scientist closer to it's proving it's existence? Let's find out.

 

Here is a link to help those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about. Also if you do know what I'm talking about still give it a read! It's kinda interesting.

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/inside-hunt-dark-matter?dom=PSC&loc=recent&lnk=2&con=inside-the-hunt-for-dark-matter

[Intervalence]

I think it exists. 

[Blueprint]

As requested by @lucky74dog I have created this thread to discuss the existence of dark matter and whether or not I make up the empty space of our universe. This is also to keep the thread Experiences With non-techies from derailing like with the hhd weight incident.

 

So without further ado have at it guys!(read next part in cool announcer voice) Does Dark Matter exist? Does it make up the dark void of our universe? Are scientist closer to it's proving it's existence? Let's find out.

 

Here is a link to help those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about. Also if you do know what I'm talking about still give it a read! It's kinda interesting.

http://www.popsci.com/article/science/inside-hunt-dark-matter?dom=PSC&loc=recent&lnk=2&con=inside-the-hunt-for-dark-matter

Do you know why we think there is dark matter?

[XTankSlayerX]

much science, such wow; very interesting.

 

 

Something has to make up the universe right?

Unless its a computer simulation (See this video), but even then it would have to be made out of something.

[lucky74dog]

It's in LittleBigPlanet, it has to exist.

[Yummychickenblue]

I think dark matter exists and scientists may be close to finding out whether or not it does exist and how to harness it with their experiments with dumbholes.  

[Vitalius]

Let's start at the bottom. 

Define "Exist". 

[gastew15]

"I don't know.." That's the most scientific way to say it right there.. Anything else is just as scientific as personal beliefs

[NerdNinja]

Let's start at the bottom. 

Define "Exist". 

hmmmm..... example: Air exists. You can't see it, smell it, or feel it(assuming it's not moving) but it exists.

[lucky74dog]

Let's start at the bottom. 

Define "Exist". 

ex·ist  [ig-zist]  

verb (used without object)

1.

to have actual being; be: The world exists, whether you like it or not.

2.

to have life or animation; live.

3.

to continue to be or live: Belief in magic still exists.

4.

to have being in a specified place or under certain conditions; be found; occur: Hunger exists in manyparts of the world.

5.

to achieve the basic needs of existence, as food and shelter: He's not living, he's merely existing.

[Blueprint]

Does anyone here actually know why we think it exists? Do you guys know why?

[NerdNinja]

Does anyone here actually know why we think it exists? Do you guys know why?

Space has to be made of something.

[lucky74dog]

Does anyone here actually know why we think it exists? Do you guys know why?

I may be confusing this with something else, but, the scientists calculated that galaxies that are the size, shape, and moving at the speed they are should be torn apart, but, obviously, they haven't, and this is the mysterious force that holds them together. Crap, what I described is dark energy, not matter. Too many term are too similar anti matter, negative matter, dark matter, dark energy, it's confusing!

[Vitalius]

-snip-

-snip-

So... the obvious answer is explicitly yes. It does exist. In some form or another. In our Universe? I don't know. But it exists. People have conceived of it. And so it exists in their minds. 

See, I know that's a BS answer, but that's because the question isn't constrained enough. "Is it real?" is a better question. Because being real is based in reality or "that which we can perceive" or "the physical manifestation of our world". Or whatever you wish. 

 

Does anyone here actually know why we think it exists? Do you guys know why?

I do. 

 

Space has to be made of something.

That's not how I heard it explained.

Basically, the math for the current universe doesn't work. There's too much matter missing for it to be as it is now. Dark Matter is a way to explain the missing normal Matter in the Universe. 

Matter affects other things by Gravity. We can see that galaxies have tons of matter and thereby huge effects on other objects (other galaxies), however we see more than you'd expect to see. Basically. 

Very watered down, but that's why. We are trying to understand Gravity (The one force governing the universe that we understand the least of the 4 that do).

I may be confusing this with something else, but, the scientists calculated that galaxies that are the size, shape, and moving at the speed they are should be torn apart, but, obviously, they haven't, and this is the mysterious force that holds them together. Crap, what I described is dark energy, not matter. Too many term are too similar anti matter, negative matter, dark matter, dark energy, it's confusing!

No, you had it right. Energy doesn't have gravity (unless it's dense enough to be matter, but then it's not energy). Matter is made of energy.

[gastew15]

Space has to be made of something.

What about that inside an atom there's nothing between the nucleions & the electrions?.. The only way for anything to be transmitted through them is EM waves, so there's nothing right there. So really space doesn't have to be made of anything actually, it's just your personal idea of what "has" to exist. Of course don't take my word for it as it's slightly subjective too, but I'm just showing that there is no set anything.

[tek inpektor]

Well, you can't see it because it absorbs light and you seeing is the reflection/refraction of light going into your eyes, so all blind people have dark matter in their eyes. Case closed it exists. End of story.

[NerdNinja]

What about that inside an atom there's nothing between the nucleions & the electrions?.. The only way for anything to be transmitted through them is EM waves, so there's nothing right there. So really space doesn't have to be made of anything actually, it's just your personal idea of what "has" to exist. Of course don't take my word for it as it's slightly subjective too, but I'm just showing that there is no set anything.

I think @Vitalius gave a better answer.

[gastew15]

I think @Vitalius gave a better answer.

About the whole thing in general, very possibly, but I was just directly talking about "Space has to be made of something,"

[chaozbandit]

Unless my university astronomy profs have all gone loopy since they got into teaching, I recall dark matter not necessarily being "found" outright, but there being an acknowledgement of it's existance because of the inherent loss of energy (whether it be from intergalactic events or from nearby gravitational forces). Then something about light from far off systems suddenly dropping off dramatically where the result is not caused by red / blue shifting (though I can't recall if I'm confusing this with the existence and detection of dark holes of various sizes or the galactic horizon / front). It's pretty much a blur after this because I aced the course then stopped studying LoL.

 

Personally I think the discussion of antimatter during the initial formation of matter is a more interesting topic, but it's of a much narrower scope and with the discussion of dark matter, we can reference pretty stars and stuff.

[lucky74dog]

This is a bit OT, but this is the best place to post it in. Have you ever wondered if we would ever know what everything is truly made of?  It used to be just earth, water, and fire, then atoms, then we found that the atom was made up of electrons, neutrons, and protons, and those are made up of other things, and all of those may be made up of strings, then, what are the strings made up of? Nothing can be made up of nothing. Everything is made up of something. Are we just going to keep chasing down ever smaller particles, for all eternity, or until the human race dies out? I think of watched one to many episodes of Doctor Who, and one to many books about physics.

[NerdNinja]

About the whole thing in general, very possibly, but I was just directly talking about "Space has to be made of something,"

Yes I realise that. I just think that my explanation is poop compared to his.

[NerdNinja]

This is a bit OT, but this is the best place to post it in. Have you ever wondered if we would ever know what everything is truly made of?  It used to be just earth, water, and fire, then atoms, then we found that the atom was made up of electrons, neutrons, and protons, and those are made up of other things, and all of those may be made up of strings, then, what are the strings made up of? Nothing can be made up of nothing. Everything is made up of something. Are we just going to keep chasing down ever smaller particles, for all eternity, or until the human race dies out? 

That's a way to put it I guess. Maybe well just stop looking one day though I doubt it. An I think this thread might get too technical for me! haha. I'll have to abandon my own thread!

[Vitalius]

To summarize, the reason we think Dark Matter exists is because galaxies have too much gravity. They don't have enough normal Matter to not fly apart (as lucky74dog said) as they fly through space. So, Dark Matter must exist, otherwise galaxies wouldn't stay together as big as they are. 

I believe this is entirely because we don't understand Gravity. 

There are 4 forces of nature in the Universe. Gravity, Electromagnetic, Weak, and Strong. 

Of those 4, we understand Gravity the least. So, consequently, I assume that we are making up a reason to cover for our lack of understanding. i.e. Dark Matter.

 

This is a bit OT, but this is the best place to post it in. Have you ever wondered if we would ever know what everything is truly made of?  It used to be just earth, water, and fire, then atoms, then we found that the atom was made up of electrons, neutrons, and protons, and those are made up of other things, and all of those may be made up of strings, then, what are the strings made up of? Nothing can be made up of nothing. Everything is made up of something. Are we just going to keep chasing down ever smaller particles, for all eternity, or until the human race dies out? 

Probably not. At some point or another, we will inevitably hit a wall where we can't receive information about something due to it being so small that there is nothing we can make to interact with it. 

It's like I imagine the Universe. To us, there is nothing else. Whether there is a Multiverse or whatever, or not, is irrelevant. Simply because, if information can't be passed between what we wish to observe and us, we can't observe it and so we can't know about it. 

If there's an upper limit, I assume there's a lower limit as well. 

And Science is entirely based on observations. Without them, we can't do anything. 

[lucky74dog]

That's a way to put it I guess. Maybe well just stop looking one day though I doubt it. An I think this thread might get too technical for me! haha. I'll have to abandon my own thread!

Change the thread to "General physics discussion" , and let everyone talk about whatever they want. This is science, we can't effectively talk about anything, unless we talk about a thousand other things!

[lucky74dog]

To summarize, the reason we think Dark Matter exists is because galaxies have too much gravity. They don't have enough normal Matter to not fly apart (as lucky74dog said) as they fly through space. So, Dark Matter must exist, otherwise galaxies wouldn't stay together as big as they are. 

I believe this is entirely because we don't understand Gravity. 

There are 4 forces of nature in the Universe. Gravity, Electromagnetic, Weak, and Strong. 

Of those 4, we understand Gravity the least. So, consequently, I assume that we are making up a reason to cover for our lack of understanding. i.e. Dark Matter.

 

Probably not. At some point or another, we will inevitably hit a wall where we can't receive information about something due to it being so small that there is nothing we can make to interact with it. 

It's like I imagine the Universe. To us, there is nothing else. Whether there is a Multiverse or whatever, or not, is irrelevant. Simply because, if information can't be passed between what we wish to observe and us, we can't observe it and so we can't know about it. 

If there's an upper limit, I assume there's a lower limit as well. 

And Science is entirely based on observations. Without them, we can't do anything. 

We don't know if there is an upper limit though. As you said, science is based upon observations, and we haven't seen the edge of the universe yet, so until then, everything is based upon math, and guessing.