The future / current state of 4k blu ray discs.

[07_Sev]

Hey guys,

 

I was wondering. At the moment 4K blu ray is considered to be the best format (for picture and audio quality at least) at the moment with their 100MB/s bitrate and 4K HDR or dolby vision colours. Though, standard blu ray is also a great alternative if you don't have practically unlimited money. With it's 25MB/s it still surpasses most streaming services. I am, by the way assuming the datarate is measured in MegaBits per second instaid of MegaBytes per second as my sources aren't clear on the specifics and data rates are usually measured in bits. The argument why streaming services compress so much is that the internet speeds of users aren't big enough. I however can get highly stable internet speeds at 200MB/s or a slightly less stable 0.5GB/s. Both connections are copper. And to be honest, in my country it is fairly rare to see people with slower speeds especially because nearly the entire nation is covered under the 4G network that can go over 100MB/s which can be tapped into if the existing cable isn't fast enough.

 

This leads me to wonder if the major steaming services will ever surpass the speeds of the 4k blu ray. As many people claim not to see the difference anyways and it would be way cheaper for the streaming services not to use as much bandwith.

 

What's your take on this?

[FloRolf]

will they ever deliver 4k bluray like quality? Yes of course, technology is bound to get better and better.

WIll that day be soon? Hell no.

 

Not only does that require the servers at the streaming services to be much faster and require more space but also, as you already mentioned, the infrastructure in the public needs to be available.

As a neighbour to the Netherlands i can say that germany is definetly NOT ready to stream full 4k Bluray quality. Just a couple weeks ago i upgraded vom 20mbit to 50mbit and there's no further jump in sight anytime soon. 

In short, it's just not worth it for the Streaming service as of now. 

 

 

EDIT: Also, 4k Blruays don't require "practically unlimited money". They are pricey but no luxury. 

[Dujith]

10 minutes ago, 07_Sev said:

in my country it is fairly rare to see people with slower speeds especially because nearly the entire nation is covered under the 4G network that can go over 100MB/s which can be tapped into if the existing cable isn't fast enough.

You would be suprised by the amount of people that have to use ADSL and are capped at 20Mbit

Also 4G/5G is a no go in the Netherlands atm. just a few "unlimited" providers with a high cost and a cap if you use too much anyway  (speed wise)

Fyi: all those speeds are Mbit and not Mbyte

 

As for the quality, right now i can see the difference between a 4k bluray and 4k streaming.

Were talking about 20-25Mbps vs minimum of 80Mbps. Specialy with alot of movement and color gradients you will see this

 

I'm sure in the future with newer codecs and technical advancement in getting our internet it will improve.

 

Having said that. I will always do both as at least the blu ray is mine. And i will always be able to watch it  

[tech.guru]

requirements for the customers to have those high internet speeds to deliver content. The sheer amount of infrastructure on the backend to supply this would be enormous. 

 

its a combination of having your customers internet speed capable of consuming the service, and the *cost* of the infrastructure on the backend to stream this to users.

 

its simple math, if you lets say 100 MB/s * thousands people in your country

 

huge all flash disk to retrieve the content

          you need to be able to retrieve content to sustain that rate times thousands of clients

                lets say you have 1,000 users. you would need 100 GB/s of disk performance. this would be very expensive

          you need the network equipment to transfer this data to the customer

                 you need 100 gigabit switching to consider such a task.

                 125 users would saturate a single 100 gigabit port.

                 this would be cost prohibitive

           huge requirement on upstream providers that would need to balanced across multiple datacenters

 

so while technically this is all possible, its not economy feasible to supply this service at this time.

as costs decrease and technology evolves this will change. so never say never.

but the revenue model streaming provides i dont see how can justify a 30$ a month subscription for at least 10K cost of infrastructure per user.

                            

HEVC supplies a good enough experience and i just dont see them going investing the kind of capital required to supply some of those niche features you mention given the current costs.

 

[07_Sev]

9 hours ago, Dujith said:

Also 4G/5G is a no go in the Netherlands atm. just a few "unlimited" providers with a high cost and a cap if you use too much anyway  (speed wise)

 

I do know T-mobile is providing 4G modems and unlimited plans for in home use for around 35 euros a month which is way cheaper than my DSL connection right now. You'll have to buy your own modem though or you'll have to borrow one from them.

[07_Sev]

9 hours ago, tech.guru said:

requirements for the customers to have those high internet speeds to deliver content. The sheer amount of infrastructure on the backend to supply this would be enormous. 

 

its a combination of having your customers internet speed capable of consuming the service, and the *cost* of the infrastructure on the backend to stream this to users.

 

its simple math, if you lets say 100 MB/s * thousands people in your country

 

huge all flash disk to retrieve the content

          you need to be able to retrieve content to sustain that rate times thousands of clients

                lets say you have 10,000 users. you would need 1 GB/s of disk performance. this would be very expensive

          you need the network equipment to transfer this data to the customer

                 you need 100 gigabit switching to consider such a task.

                 125 users would saturate a single 100 gigabit port.

                 this would be cost prohibitive

           huge requirement on upstream providers that would need to balanced across multiple datacenters

 

so while technically this is all possible, its not economy feasible to supply this service at this time.

as costs decrease and technology evolves this will change. so never say never.

but the streaming provides i dont see how can justify a 30$ a month revenue for at least 10K cost of infrastructure per user.

                            

HEVC supplies a pretty good enough experience and i just dont see them going and investing the kind of capital required to supply some of those features given the current costs.

 

The economic aspect is the reason why I think the quality won't get any better. It would indeed be very costly to upgrade the delivery infrastructure. And if the cost of new technology gets lower I think the streaming services will either, pass their savings to the costumers or put it in their own pockets. Not actually improve picture quality as my parents, which aren't AV nerds like me but still quite technical, can barely distinguish DVD from blu ray on a 4k monitor let alone these higher bitrates.

Perhaps newer codecs can provide quality improvements at the same or even less bandwith. I hadn't thought of that before. For now I'm still buying my favorites on blu ray for the best picture quality.

[tech.guru]

8 hours ago, 07_Sev said:

The economic aspect is the reason why I think the quality won't get any better. It would indeed be very costly to upgrade the delivery infrastructure. And if the cost of new technology gets lower I think the streaming services will either, pass their savings to the costumers or put it in their own pockets. Not actually improve picture quality as my parents, which aren't AV nerds like me but still quite technical, can barely distinguish DVD from blu ray on a 4k monitor let alone these higher bitrates.

Perhaps newer codecs can provide quality improvements at the same or even less bandwith. I hadn't thought of that before. For now I'm still buying my favorites on blu ray for the best picture quality.

you must understand that also that 4k penetration in homes, is still growing.

http://4k.com/news/according-to-the-latest-findings-from-ihs-4k-tv-penetration-will-hit-35-as-of-2019-11434/

 

customers long upgrade cycle have also probably factored in the delay for streaming services to spend the significant capital for infrastructure required for lossy 4k video streams. 

 

there is also 8k on the horizon, which will require significant investment.

this will require 100 MB/s even with the compression HEVC provides.

 

it will be interesting if netflix supports 8k "out of the gate" or will wait until becomes more mainstream.

i imagine 8k video will provide much better benefits compared to those features on blu ray you mention.

 

8k because of the technical limitations of storage prevent blu ray adopting the standard.

it will be interesting what content will be out there for 8k, unless streaming services step in and provide content. significant upgrades to residential lines would also need to happen to make this streaming available to a majority of homes. 5G??? FTTH??? still alot of places where basic DSL is only available and upgrades been slow to homes.

 

if people buck the prev trend and go out and buy 8k tvs right away (compared to adoption of 4k) and internet is upgraded across america to at least 100MB/s maybe a new premium model will pop up to support this, where users pay extra to subsidize the infrastructure upgrades for 8k content. or server infrastructure costs come down enough this starts to become feasible with the current model.

could be a combination of both.

 

i do not see people going out to buy an expensive tv, during an depression or recession. its more likely netflix waits until 8k is more main stream (like they did with 4k, and even now its only 35%) before making the investments in upgrades. this could be years after 8k tvs are out there especially if adoption rate is slow.this would leave 8k early adopters without much content

.

lets see in a next few years what happens.

 

[Dujith]

8 hours ago, 07_Sev said:

I do know T-mobile is providing 4G modems and unlimited plans for in home use for around 35 euros a month which is way cheaper than my DSL connection right now. You'll have to buy your own modem though or you'll have to borrow one from them.

That has alot of problems with it.

1. You need to be in an area that does not have a decent connection (rural areas with old copper that only get 2-5Mbps) If your area has normal internet the bundle does not apply

2. Data limit of 100GB per month. When reached you will get 5GB per day which you have to manually activate each day

3. Speed will be 25/25 Max.

 

Tmobile is living in the stone ages and thinks 100GB is enough for a household. You couldnt even install a modern open world game this way  

(Think Red Dead 2 is 150GB?)

[tech.guru]

4G cant supply content your talking about. 4G also runs into over subscription issues from wireless towers hence the data caps,

5G is the technology that would need to provide the content and speed your talking about.

 

5G rollout has been

        a very slow rollout, and limited coverage across NA

        very few devices support 5G

        domestic issues due to possible chinese spying from huawei 

 

also everything is up in the air with this covid around 5g upgrades i imagine... network upgrades are very expensive.

 

will the wireless carriers be able to secure the funding to upgrade their networks?

will customers subsidize the upgrades given the economic climate?

[dalekphalm]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:37 AM, 07_Sev said:

Hey guys,

 

I was wondering. At the moment 4K blu ray is considered to be the best format (for picture and audio quality at least) at the moment with their 100MB/s bitrate and 4K HDR or dolby vision colours. Though, standard blu ray is also a great alternative if you don't have practically unlimited money. With it's 25MB/s it still surpasses most streaming services. I am, by the way assuming the datarate is measured in MegaBits per second instaid of MegaBytes per second as my sources aren't clear on the specifics and data rates are usually measured in bits. The argument why streaming services compress so much is that the internet speeds of users aren't big enough. I however can get highly stable internet speeds at 200MB/s or a slightly less stable 0.5GB/s. Both connections are copper. And to be honest, in my country it is fairly rare to see people with slower speeds especially because nearly the entire nation is covered under the 4G network that can go over 100MB/s which can be tapped into if the existing cable isn't fast enough.

 

This leads me to wonder if the major steaming services will ever surpass the speeds of the 4k blu ray. As many people claim not to see the difference anyways and it would be way cheaper for the streaming services not to use as much bandwith.

 

What's your take on this?

Just an FYI because you seemed unsure:

 

Both video bitrate and Internet speeds are rated in Megabits per second (Mbps - or a multiple of said unit, such as Kbps) - You can tell the difference by the size of the 'b' - Big 'B' = Byte. Little 'b' = Bit. 8 bits per byte.

 

4K UHD Blu-Ray is generally 100 Mbps - though in theory the disc spec allows up to 150 Mbps.

 

It's unclear whether the disc spec for UHD Blu-Ray would allow for 8K. It's definitely capable of being added in a revision, if needed - but I highly doubt we'll see 8K Blu-Ray's anytime soon.

[07_Sev]

8 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Just an FYI because you seemed unsure:

 

Both video bitrate and Internet speeds are rated in Megabits per second (Mbps - or a multiple of said unit, such as Kbps) - You can tell the difference by the size of the 'b' - Big 'B' = Byte. Little 'b' = Bit. 8 bits per byte.

 

4K UHD Blu-Ray is generally 100 Mbps - though in theory the disc spec allows up to 150 Mbps.

 

It's unclear whether the disc spec for UHD Blu-Ray would allow for 8K. It's definitely capable of being added in a revision, if needed - but I highly doubt we'll see 8K Blu-Ray's anytime soon.

Thanks for the clearification. It's unfortunate that these units look so similar.

[SirReallySam]

Funnily enough though as someone that works in the VFX industry. Most of the content we finalise for our clients as of the moment are all 2K. Meaning most the 4K Blu-Ray releases are being up-scaled. 

[07_Sev]

17 minutes ago, SirReallySam said:

Funnily enough though as someone that works in the VFX industry. Most of the content we finalise for our clients as of the moment are all 2K. Meaning most the 4K Blu-Ray releases are being up-scaled. 

Yeah, at the moment, nobody buys 4k blu rays for the 4k resolution because we all know most VFX are rendered in 2K. At the moment most people buy 4k blu rays for the HDR and bitrate improvements. Many 4k blu rays also come with a better audio track which is weird as the older blu rays can also handle Dolby Atmos and DTSX just fine.

[dalekphalm]

3 hours ago, SirReallySam said:

Funnily enough though as someone that works in the VFX industry. Most of the content we finalise for our clients as of the moment are all 2K. Meaning most the 4K Blu-Ray releases are being up-scaled. 

That’s totally okay though. What kind of bitrate are you rendering at?

[SirReallySam]

2 hours ago, 07_Sev said:

Yeah, at the moment, nobody buys 4k blu rays for the 4k resolution because we all know most VFX are rendered in 2K. At the moment most people buy 4k blu rays for the HDR and bitrate improvements. Many 4k blu rays also come with a better audio track which is weird as the older blu rays can also handle Dolby Atmos and DTSX just fine.

Yeah very good point!

[Donut417]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:37 AM, 07_Sev said:

What's your take on this?

Two words DATA CAPS. Data caps on Wired broadband services are what keeps blurays in business. Major ISP's like Comcast, AT&T, COX and many others have data caps in place. Most of these caps are anywhere from 250 Gigs to 1 TB of data a month. I have a feeling Blurays will be around for a very long time. Becauase as others have pointed out LTE is generally capped, and even if its not, companies like T Mobile degrade the video down to SD quality anyway. 5G is rolling out slowly. Mainly due to political pressures such as China and spying, but also the amount of people who are fighting it based on "Health Concerns". We have a lot of Tin Foil hat people around the world. 

 

But the data caps are the big one. Thats the reason I still run a 32" 720p TV, because frankly I dont see a reason in upgrading it, espeically if I cant enjoy 4K and all its goodness, as we already flirt with Comcast's 1TB cap in my household. While I could buy 4K bluray's but those are like $30 a pop, and its a real chore having to dig out a disk every time you want to watch a movie. 

[07_Sev]

5 hours ago, Donut417 said:

But the data caps are the big one. Thats the reason I still run a 32" 720p TV, because frankly I dont see a reason in upgrading it, espeically if I cant enjoy 4K and all its goodness, as we already flirt with Comcast's 1TB cap in my household. While I could buy 4K bluray's but those are like $30 a pop, and its a real chore having to dig out a disk every time you want to watch a movie. 

I don't see datacaps as a big problem for the future. For now: Yes, in north America it might be an issue, however time will probably pull down prices. When I looked at a local advert from 9 years ago it was promoting the big deal of unlimited mobile calls for only 40 euro/month. Now, You can have unlimited calls, texts and practically unlimited 4g internet for nearly half of that. That's the innovation we're seing in europe. I don't know how quickly Americans can follow. Perhaps you should advocate for the abolishment of datacaps as bandwith really is very cheap.

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, 07_Sev said:

I don't know how quickly Americans can follow. Perhaps you should advocate for the abolishment of datacaps as bandwith really is very cheap.

The issue is the data caps are in place to stop streaming, or at least slow it down. Here in the US the cable companies and phone companies provide our internet, they also provide TV services that they make metric boat loads of cash on, well at least they did. Cord cutting in recent years has put a hamper on that. As a result data caps and overage charges have come. Oh and the biggy, the telecom indsutry as a whole pretty muchs owns Congress and the FCC. With ISP's being under Title 1 regulations from the FCC, the agency doesnt have the authroity to regulate ISP's. Some states are regulating them when it comes to net neutrality but not all. You also have to remember, the EU regulates the life out of every thing. Here in the US private corporations run the show. They dont care bandwidth is cheap, that just means higher profit margins. Then add to the fact that most ISP's have a local monopoly, that doesnt help eaither. Where I live Comcast serves a majority of the city, while AT&T due to aging infustructor and the fact they dont want to upgrade us, only provides 18 Mbps aDSL and doesnt even cover the whole city, I cant get AT&T services, but I wouldnt want to.