How Linux always sucks all the joy out of me...

[RejZoR]

Linus often talks about Manjaro so I've decided to give it a go. And to my amusement, they even offer KDE and Gnome variants which is cool. My first encounter with Linux was with KDE so I was quite happy as I like it more than Gnome. Downloaded that puppy and that's where the "fun" began. Decided to slam it on my Ryzen 2500U laptop coz it's only used casually, good way to get back to Linux.

 

First I had whole fuckery with even getting it booted coz of stupid Secure Boot, then I couldn't get it to run even from USB drive because I made them bootable with UNETBOOTIN, tool I've been using on and off for almost 2 decades. After using Rufus, I finally managed to boot the frigging thing. Booted and it looked nice. So I decided to just go ahead and install it. During install it said I'm not connected to internet and I was fine, said to myself, I'm gonna update it later anyway when it's installed on laptop.

 

Just to later, after installation realize the damn thing has no concept of Realtek WLAN. It has NO drivers for it. At least the exact variant I'm using. How's with that "just works" again? And that's where the usual Linux fuckery that I hate always begins. This time was no exception. With Windows not auto installing drivers, you just go to manufacturer of device using other computer, download drivers there, double click the installer and boom, you sort it out in few clicks. Well, lets just say Realtek has no Linux drivers at all on their webpage. Then I managed to find some driver on Github I think that had to be installed using some stupid long noodle in Terminal while laptop was on wired internet (I had to carry the laptop on other end of house to do that). Just so that it sperged that system lacks 2 dependencies and didn't do anything with it. Like, come on. It's a fucking WiFi device from Realtek, how more basic can it be?! Then I tried Ubuntu and Mint and as it turns out, not a single "major" distro knows or has this driver baked in somehow.

So, I'm back on Windows 10 that actually JUST WORKS and where fixing anything doesn't require typing long nonsensical noodles into a Terminal. So, yeah, the exact same experience I've had with Linux for last 2 decades...

 

Linux is great for purpose made tools like Clonezilla which actually work and I like them, but there is just ALWAYS some dumb nonsense with distros that makes me hate Linux as a full featured OS. And I wish it wasn't this way, but they just can't seem to ever get anything right entirely. And people complain how Windows 10 is X and Y. Try basically any Linux distro and you start to appreciate how problem free and user friendly Windows is. I wish Linux was a viable option that I could easily recommend to anyone and even use it myself, but it just isn't. There, I had to get this out of my system.

[Beerzerker]

Installing stuff like drivers in Linux drives me nuts too, I'll admit it's not a click and go style OS like Windows but you'd think at some point all the hoop-jumping to make it happen would be easier by now.

I'm still learning how it works myself and I know that's a factor. TBH OS installs with Mint so far have been flawless, no issues to mention except for having to install actual drivers for stuff if I decide to grab a file and just install the driver.

 

Maybe they'll get it right, maybe not.

[RejZoR]

The OS itself, when it works is fine and distros all look very nice. But my god, when something, anything doesn't work as expected, it's an absolute nightmare to deal with. It's always Terminal and kilometers of noodle commands to deal with. Sure many say it's easier that way than guides what to click and where to find things in menus, but with Windows, that just became natural and people got the hang of it. You just never get the hang of long seemingly totally meaningless commands that you can't even memorize opposed to finding something in menus and in the end I just always give up because it also always becomes so bloody annoying. And I wish it wasn't this way because I wish one day I could actually use some Linux distro as a main OS. I just haven't got that luck in 20 years somehow...

[Bartholomew]

18 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

using some stupid long noodle in Terminal

That, right there!

 

No matter what anyone says: if using linux youll be at the terminal within a few hours, copy-pasting jibberisch that might install god-knows-what alongside the thing that you are after, if it works at all since 99.9% of the time it will just bomb out due to whatever.

 

Is basically unusable without in depth knowledge of 500 subjects each with 437474 variants and knowing them that isnt enough, you need to be able to translate it to the language of "stupid long noodles" (well put!) with 0 margin for errors.

[Sauron]

Realtek: *doesn't properly support their hardware on the third most popular desktop platform*

@RejZoR: OMFG Linux sucks 0/10

 

You don't have to use it man, you don't seem very motivated to begin with...

33 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

So, I'm back on Windows 10 that actually JUST WORKS and where fixing anything doesn't require typing long nonsensical noodles into a Terminal.

It's funny you'd say that since I've had to manually fix Windows Update multiple times and every time it has required unintuitive terminal commands with no feedback on whether anything worked or not. When you have problems you may need the terminal, that's the same on both Linux and Windows. The key difference is that the terminal on Linux is actually decent and doesn't make users with a minimum amount of experience rip their hair out in frustration. Oh, and at least Linux generally can be fixed - whereas Windows is just designed like garbage sometimes and you can't change it.

14 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

You just never get the hang of long seemingly totally meaningless commands that you can't even memorize opposed to finding something in menus

Menus exist in all Linux distros, the reason people give commands rather than 10 screenshots is that 1) it's not going to depend on the specific distro version and theme you're using and 2) it's a lot faster to do it that way - you just need to put in a tiny bit of effort at the start to figure out how the shell works. I think it's telling that people aren't willing to be the slightest bit charitable to Linux the moment they get a problem but will just ignore the truckloads of bullshit they have to endure on Windows just because they're used to it. You should ask a Mac user what they think of Windows to get a little perspective.

[homeap5]

I think it's already possible to prepare software that installs itself without any problem by one click. Problem is that Linux users are so happy that they may write magic sentences in terminal so nobody even tries to made things easily.

[APasz]

UNETBOOTIN is almost 13 years old. And it doesn't support the creation of Manjaro USB disks. (as you found out)

Whoever said "It just works" in relation to WiFi on Linux clearly has no idea.

WiFi support on Linux has always been bad. It's only in the last few years that things have been getting better.

Realtek is known for being behind on their support if they provide any at all.

[Sauron]

8 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

I think it's already possible to prepare software that installs itself without any problem by one click.

Linux distros literally have that. You don't even need to look for installers on the Internet. It shows just how much experience you have with Linux that you would act as though one of the most noticeable features it has has pretty much since its inception and has since been copied by everyone else (even Windows, though their implementation is trash) doesn't exist.

 

Can I just complain about Windows not having a maximize window function? Since we're lying here I might as well...

[RejZoR]

10 minutes ago, APasz said:

UNETBOOTIN is almost 13 years old. And it doesn't support the creation of Manjaro USB disks. (as you found out)

Whoever said "It just works" in relation to WiFi on Linux clearly has no idea.

WiFi support on Linux has always been bad. It's only in the last few years that things have been getting better.

Realtek is known for being behind on their support if they provide any at all.

Just works as in "the whole thing". No one ever said anything about WiFi specifically. And that's basically what Linus said too. Not my experience since almost beginning of time.

 

@Sauron

You mean, you don't have to look for installers, you just open the package manager and it'll download them for you? Yeah, I'd love to experience that. I just need to get the internet connection working... That chicken and the egg issue...

[Dutch_Master]

Linux is all about choice, your choice. Like, having a choice in the first place. And it includes the choice of not using Linux. Well, not on the desktop (or in your case, laptop). That's fine.

 

So, tell me the difference:

 

Win-OS:

Install basic system, hunt the web for drivers, hope these are actually safe to use (and not disguised malware!) and install these. Reboot. Often

 

Linux:

Install basic system, fire up the package manager, mark the (tested and proven safe) drivers for installation, Reboot, if required, once.

 

Out of the box, Win-OS does NOT support a whole lot of hardware. Linux does. Most drivers, except for hardware that came out like yesterday, is included in the kernel, or available from the package manager.

 

Slam Linux all you want, but it's not going away. Nor will it get better automagically. Linux runs on volunteers, people who spend their free time (there's only a limited amount of folk who actually get paid working on Linux) improving code, adding new features and testing stuff before it's available for normal users. It's up to you, but those people deserve a bit more credit then just another pointless rant from a Win-OS fanboi

[homeap5]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Linux distros literally have that. You don't even need to look for installers on the Internet. It shows just how much experience you have with Linux that you would act as though one of the most noticeable features it has has pretty much since its inception and has since been copied by everyone else (even Windows, though their implementation is trash) doesn't exist.

 

Can I just complain about Windows not having a maximize window function? Since we're lying here I might as well...

I'm not taking about obvious features everyone knows. I'm taking about programs that you cannot find easy way and need to be downloaded manually from internet.

[Sauron]

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

I just need to get the internet connection working... That chicken and the egg issue...

Yeah, just like it would be on any operating system if for whatever reason your wifi adapter wasn't compatible out of the box. Good luck downloading an installer for anything without the Internet, Windows or not.

[Sauron]

Just now, homeap5 said:

I'm not taking about obvious features everyone knows. I'm taking about programs that you cannot find easy way and need to be downloaded manually from internet.

Example?

[RejZoR]

Just now, Sauron said:

Yeah, just like it would be on any operating system if for whatever reason your wifi adapter wasn't compatible out of the box. Good luck downloading an installer for anything without the Internet, Windows or not.

Are you for real? It took me like 2 minutes to download a WiFi device installer on another system, plop it on USB stick and install it on the problematic system. It took me 15 minutes just to dig up some bizarro Realtek driver on Github which, at that point had absolutely no clue how to even install. Found bunch of long noodles for Terminal to install it and 10 minutes later I still didn't have WiFi up and running because I was suppose to type in some more Terminal noodles for two stupid dependencies which I somehow didn't have but should. 10 minutes later I was restoring Windows 10 disk image... This is just beyond absurd levels of stupid to get something as simple as fucking WiFi up and running.

[Kilrah]

18 minutes ago, Dutch_Master said:

Win-OS:

Install basic system, hunt the web for drivers, hope these are actually safe to use (and not disguised malware!) and install these. Reboot. Often

 

Out of the box, Win-OS does NOT support a whole lot of hardware.

Your references are outdated. 

I've been recently installing the current version of Win10 on many systems from new to 12 years old, and I can count on one hand's finger the occurrences where I needed to go grab a driver manually, nearly everything supported out of the box. And when needed doing so was sorted in 2 minutes. 

 

My brand new laptop on a clean install lacks a good dozen drivers, including wifi. Plug the ethernet cable, open preferences, updates, click search now - 10 mins later everything's installed as it pulls them all straight from Windows Update. If I didn't want to save a couple of minutes then just leaving it on with a network connection would have it pull them on its own...

 

I like linux for several things, but could not either use it daily. I have an Ubuntu install on a microSD card that I can just plug into any PC and boot from natively when needed, or use as a VM when that doesn't work or I want to do other things in parallel...

[Sauron]

33 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Are you for real? It took me like 2 minutes to download a WiFi device installer on another system, plop it on USB stick and install it on the problematic system. It took me 15 minutes just to dig up some bizarro Realtek driver on Github which, at that point had absolutely no clue how to even install.

That has *nothing* to do with the operating system and everything to do with Realtek.

34 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Found bunch of long noodles for Terminal to install it and 10 minutes later I still didn't have WiFi up and running because I was suppose to type in some more Terminal noodles for two stupid dependencies which I somehow didn't have but should. 10 minutes later I was restoring Windows 10 disk image... This is just beyond absurd levels of stupid to get something as simple as fucking WiFi up and running.

Oh wow, your patience lasted 10 minutes. Truly a paragon of effort. I've spent days troubleshooting things on both Linux and Windows. As I said, nobody's forcing you to use it if you don't like it.

[Nayr438]

Realtek Drivers are rather hit and miss in Linux.

Driver support and how easy it is to obtain them varies a lot from Distro to Distro.

Also keep in mind that Manufacturers don't tend to make drivers for Linux and is often up to the community to create drivers. In some cases there may not be a driver.

 

Also as another note Linux Mint is built on Ubuntu, your driver experience wont change much between the two.

Typically it's easier to find Drivers for Distros Like Arch (or distros built on it such as Manjaro which is a good middle ground) than it is to find working Drivers for something like Ubuntu.

This is mostly due to the community surrounding the Distro.

 

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Network_configuration/Wireless#Device_driver

 

In the end, If you want to use Linux. You shouldn't expect the same experience as Windows.

In some ways Linux is better and in some ways Windows is.

 

[homeap5]

47 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Example?

Realtek drivers? :)

Don't tell me that everything is in repositories out of the box.

[Sauron]

15 hours ago, homeap5 said:

Realtek drivers?

Yeah, so since Realtek didn't package their drivers correctly you're going to blame it on Linux and the supposed inability to make a decent installer outside of repositories?

15 hours ago, homeap5 said:

Don't tell me that everything is in repositories out of the box.

If you use something like Arch it's exceedingly rare to need something that isn't available in the AUR.

 

Regardless, third party installers definitely do exist. VMWare for example has a GUI installer for their products. Games nowadays are almost universally installed through stores and launchers like Steam. It's just up to the company selling the software to actually make it available - do you think Microsoft makes installers for Windows programs?

 

So just to recap, you stated that "nobody even tries" to make "software that installs itself with a few clicks", then when called out you requalified to "software that isn't in the repositories", then mentioned one case where the manufacturer didn't offer proper support for their hardware. Good job.

[Dat Guy]

One of the reasons why I'll always prefer OpenBSD to Linux is that it just works. Granted, the driver situation is even worse, but you won't be surprised all the time.

 

(I still miss the time when CDE was "the" desktop on unixoid systems.)

[homeap5]

3 hours ago, Sauron said:

Yeah, so since Realtek didn't package their drivers correctly you're going to blame it on Linux and the supposed inability to make a decent installer outside of repositories?

If you use something like Arch it's exceedingly rare to need something that isn't available in the AUR.

 

Regardless, third party installers definitely do exist. VMWare for example has a GUI installer for their products. Games nowadays are almost universally installed through stores and launchers like Steam. It's just up to the company selling the software to actually make it available - do you think Microsoft makes installers for Windows programs?

 

So just to recap, you stated that "nobody even tries" to make "software that installs itself with a few clicks", then when called out you requalified to "software that isn't in the repositories", then mentioned one case where the manufacturer didn't offer proper support for their hardware. Good job.

Come on, I'm talking about software that isn't in repositories from the beginning. I though it was obvious that I'm not talking about installing programs from software center. If I say about Windows and installers that every program have - I'm not talking about Microsof Store, where installing programs is as easy as in software center in some Linux distributions. So I compare standard Windows installers vs standard Linux installers. Sure - some programs may have them, I can believe that.

 

Here we have standard question on Ubuntu "Questions" section of website: https://askubuntu.com/questions/307280/how-do-i-install-applications-in-ubuntu

 

Is this really looks for you like terminal-free methods? Is this someone like my father or some old people can understand easily and call it "user friendly"?

 

I mentioned Realtek, because this was described here, on forum, as a problem. I'm using Linux from time to time and my experience is like that - if I want to use programs I choose, I mostly end with some terminal magic spells. If I want to avoid that - I am limited to programs available in software center.

 

Every complex configuration in Linux is text-based (at least that was from my point of view when I was trying to use Linux). Of course - in Windows complex configuration sometimes requires even registry edit, but hey - it's at least database and you can find many tools to edit registry. In Linux I can find just better text editor to edit various configuration files. Most times when I wanted to do something more complicated, I followed forums advices and can figure out how to do that. But in Windows at least I understand how it works - registry have some logic, it's not that "every entry has different structure". When I want to change boot menu in Windows, I don't need to edit text file! When I want to add some non-standard resolutions, I don't need to edit config files. Come on - how many more years Linux need to be user friendly? I may not know how everything works and I may not have experience with Linux, but good system should be like Windows - every user can browse lot of options in control panel, everything is described and even if you need to edit some registry files for some complex settings - you can find programs that do it for you. There is no tutorials on internet like "if you want to disable Windows Defender, you must open cmd and type sudo reg-insert HKLM/xxxx/yyyy dword ZZZZ value 1, then sudo reg-update restart" etc. You can find simply reg file that update registry for you and that's all.

[Xiee]

I remember a while back when Ubuntu was quite new and it sorta didn't like Nvidia drivers. Had to eff around with those trying to get the drivers to work.

[Sauron]

8 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Come on, I'm talking about software that isn't in repositories from the beginning. I though it was obvious that I'm not talking about installing programs from software center.

Your statement still holds no water because for the little software that isn't there there usually are installers.

9 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Here we have standard question on Ubuntu "Questions" section of website: https://askubuntu.com/questions/307280/how-do-i-install-applications-in-ubuntu

Yeah, do you think someone wouldn't have that same reaction if they had only used, say, Android and suddenly started using Windows with no instructions?

11 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Is this really looks for you like terminal-free methods? Is this someone like my father or some old people can understand easily and call it "user friendly"?

I don't know your father but I would feel pretty insulted if my son didn't think I was capable of understanding two lines of basic english.

Quote

You can install applications different ways. Terminal, the Ubuntu Software Center, and Synaptic.

With the Ubuntu Software Center, you just open it from the Launcher, and search for the application that you want.

 

12 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

If I want to avoid that - I am limited to programs available in software center.

Which is all the majority of users need. Not that typing "sudo apt install whatever" takes much cognitive effort.

15 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Every complex configuration in Linux is text-based (at least that was from my point of view when I was trying to use Linux). Of course - in Windows complex configuration sometimes requires even registry edit, but hey - it's at least database and you can find many tools to edit registry.

And how do you know how you should change those registry values? Not to mention "complex configurations" in Linux are things you likely can't even do in Windows. I also don't get what you people have against text - I think it's some sort of reflex born out of the god awful experience that is the Windows terminal or one too many "haxxor" movies making the terminal look more complex than it is.

19 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

When I want to change boot menu in Windows, I don't need to edit text file! When I want to add some non-standard resolutions, I don't need to edit config files.

There are GUI tools to do both of those in Linux.

22 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Come on - how many more years Linux need to be user friendly?

None. It will never be "user friendly" to people who expect it to work exactly like something it is not and are unwilling to put in the bare minimum effort to learn something they haven't been shoved down their throats their entire lives. Your complaints have been solved "problems" for years but people keep bringing them up and asking "why isn't Linux user friendly?" while ignoring the truckload of usability problems Windows has had for decades and has never addressed.

27 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

I may not know how everything works and I may not have experience with Linux, but good system should be like Windows - every user can browse lot of options in control panel, everything is described and even if you need to edit some registry files for some complex settings - you can find programs that do it for you.

Literally every popular distribution is like that. Except you conveniently ignored the part where Windows has half a dozen different "panels" to browse for settings which may or may not list the thing you might intuitively expect, and the part where the registry is a garbled mess where you have no hope of finding what you need without an internet search where you copy and paste a registry path which may or may not be correct ("omg why do I have to copy and paste magic writing and hope it works??").

33 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

There is no tutorials on internet like "if you want to disable Windows Defender, you must open cmd and type sudo reg-insert HKLM/xxxx/yyyy dword ZZZZ value 1, then sudo reg-update restart" etc. You can find simply reg file that update registry for you and that's all.

It's not a fucking feature that changing a setting is so complex that you need to download a random file off the internet to do it. Also I love the absolute straw man that is comparing made up instructions for something that doesn't even exist on Linux to how it is actually done on Windows. On Linux, if you want to disable some type of service (including an anti-virus) 99% of the time it's

"sudo systemctl disable --now service" (if it's not a convenient menu option that is) and you go on with your day without having to download anything suspicious or having to worry about whether it actually did anything.

[jdfthetech]

Folks, some people will like Linux and will enjoy being able to tinker with it and learn.
Others will not.

If someone posts a rant about how bad Linux is, it's probably best to not argue.
Just let them state publicly their failure in comprehension and ignore it.

Arguing about this does nothing for the community and simply manages to push more relevant threads to the bottom.
 

[Nayr438]

To me it just sounds like someone had a bad experience on a Distro and didn't even look for alternatives.

I don't see anything complicated here, The Distro you choose or setup will determine your experience. There are Distros out there that have everything you probably need, it's just a matter of finding it. If you don't want to search, just stay with Windows.