Core i5 4590s Vs Xeon E3-1230V2

[Fasauceome]

Just now, MS-DOS Guy said:

Then what is your evidence? Oh by the way, here is some Cinebench scores from youtube.

I don't use cinebench as a metric for gaming performance. Again, controlling for variables very poorly. Changes to how hyperthreading is implemented, advancements to certain instruction sets, it's not accurate.

[MS-DOS Guy]

1 hour ago, fasauceome said:

f your research involves those YouTube videos that are piles of fps numbers with edm over it, those are unreliable as well. 

How are you sure those are unreliable? When I was looking for a good processor I was shown FPS Tests, once it arrived in the mail. The FPS tests were genuine. 

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

I was shown FPS Tests, once it arrived in the mail. The FPS tests were genuine. 

If you got the exact performance figures you saw online, that's lucky. Again, without controlling for variables, you can't use online benchmarks for a precise estimate. Single digit differences disappear in the practical applications.

[MS-DOS Guy]

1 hour ago, fasauceome said:

I don't use cinebench as a metric for gaming performance. Again, controlling for variables very poorly. Changes to how hyperthreading is implemented, advancements to certain instruction sets, it's not accurate.

Perhaps you don't use cinebench but I do. And so do a wide variety of technology related channels including Linus. Something that you and I can both agree on. Cinebench, regardless on what your position on Cinebench is, if you revel in or if you find it distasteful. It is highly accurate as depicted by plenty of reliable sources. Cinebench is the go to CPU benchmark for alot of people including Linus, Bitwit and literally every technology channel.  

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

Perhaps you don't use cinebench but I do. And so do a wide variety of technology related channels including Linus. Something that you and I can both agree on. Cinebench, regardless on what your position on Cinebench is, if you revel in or if you find it distasteful. It is highly accurate as depicted by plenty of reliable sources. Cinebench is the go to CPU benchmark for alot of people including Linus, Bitwit and literally every technology channel.  

But not for Gaming performance, just general CPU comparing. It becomes very relevant in workstation evaluation.

[MS-DOS Guy]

59 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

But not for Gaming performance, just general CPU comparing. It becomes very relevant in workstation evaluation.

If a CPU has a good cinebench score, it can determine gaming performance, yes. Cinebench tells you how fast your CPU can render a scene using all CPU threads. That goes hand-in-hand with rendering in video games. 

[Fasauceome]

Just now, MS-DOS Guy said:

If a CPU has a good cinebench score, it can determine gaming performance, yes. Cinebench tells you how fast your CPU can render a scene using all CPU threads. That goes hand-in-hand with rendering in video games. 

CPUs aren't doing the rendering in gaming. GPUs are. 

[MS-DOS Guy]

1 hour ago, fasauceome said:

1 hour ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

If a CPU has a good cinebench score, it can determine gaming performance, yes. Cinebench tells you how fast your CPU can render a scene using all CPU threads. That goes hand-in-hand with rendering in video games. 

CPUs aren't doing the rendering in gaming. GPUs are. 

I just want concrete evidence if the 4770k is more of a worthy investment as oppose to a i7 3770k. Because I can assure you, there's not. 

[Fasauceome]

Just now, MS-DOS Guy said:

I just want concrete evidence if the 4770k is more of a worthy investment as oppose to a i7 3770k. Because I can assure you, there's not. 

I'm confused of the wording of this. Do you mean that there's no direct numerical value of the value of Haswell over Ivy Bridge, or do you mean that the difference in value of those is too small? Because both of those are true.

[MS-DOS Guy]

1 hour ago, fasauceome said:

I'm confused of the wording of this. Do you mean that there's no direct numerical value of the value of Haswell over Ivy Bridge, or do you mean that the difference in value of those is too small? Because both of those are true.

I want to see proof that the i7 3770k is outperforming the i7 4770k. If it outperforms the 4770k that means it's more of a worthy investment. As I said, I want concrete evidence indicating it's more of a worthy investment.

[Fasauceome]

4 minutes ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

I want to see proof that the i7 3770k is outperforming the i7 4770k.

Why would I have to prove that? I never said it was the case, I said the performance difference in gaming was very small. My claim is that they are very much the same investment.

 

It's not even relevant to the original post, it's an old Xeon vs an i5. When an i7 would be desirable, the price difference and landscape would have changed so much, why do you insist on comparing two CPUs that aren't part of the discussion?

[aisle9]

1 hour ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

The 6700k by default is more powerful than the 6600k with or without HT on. The xeon is not, it's significantly worse. Besides, it provides little to none upgrade paths which is something that is on OP's criteria of a good processor to get. LGA 1155 motherboards are also kind of expensive now ( $70^ ) unless you get a cheapo motherboard with bad VRM and other stuff. LGA 1150 are much, much cheaper. 

1. A Xeon E3-1230 V2 is functionally identical to an i7-3770 without an iGPU. They're the same chip on the same socket and can use the same chipsets.

2. We're talking about hardware from 2013-2015. There is no upgrade path for any of it. If you're buying a Haswell i5 because you want an upgrade path, you're doing it wrong.

3. LGA 1150 motherboards are much more of a pain in the ass for me to get on the cheap than LGA 1155.

 

1 hour ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

What? First off, don't get a 1660TI get a 980 TI as there more powerful and cheaper. 

Second off, I just explained that xeon has more expensive motherboard making the i5 4590s more cost efficient. Like, alot more cost efficient. 

1. Not everyone has a 600W power supply with multiple PCIe plugs ready for a 980 Ti.

2. The E3-1230 V2 will work in an H61 motherboard that hasn't been locked down by the OEM (looking at you, Dell). If you step outside at the right time of day, you'll see old H61 boards raining from the sky, and the angels will only take $20 from you. H81 boards, on the other hand, are a much more pricey pain in the nuts.

 

1 hour ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

Really? Because LGA 1155 is Sandy Bridge. I7 3770k ( but is only 5% more faster than the 2600k ) is the most fastest LGA 1155 cpu. And the i7 3770k doesn't even compare to a Haswell i7. Saying the upgrade path is the same, is remarkably misleading. 

There is a 5% generational performance gap between Ivy and Haswell. The first huge jump in CPU performance on Intel's Core i series came from Nehalem to Sandy Bridge. After that, it was all roughly 5% incremental gen-to-gen bumps up until Coffee Lake. An i7-3770K not only compares to a Haswell i7, it will kick the piss out of a locked i7-4770 if you get a decent overclock on it.

 

1 hour ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

Besides, the i5 4590s is just generally more cost effective. Motherboards are much cheaper, and you will have the option to upgrade to outstandingly more power CPUs to push even more frames. 

Again with this cheaper motherboards nonsense. H61 boards are like hookers out behind the Palazzo. They're all over the place, they're cheap as hell, and while they aren't the prettiest, they'll get the job done.

 

50 minutes ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

              That maybe true, but buying a non-k i7 4770 would also be a useless purchase since they cost the same as a i7 4770k ( roughly ) and a i7 3770 also being a useless purchase since a i7 2600k is about the same performance and costs less. So both, an 4770 and a 3770 are both stupid purchases. However, a i7 4770k vs a i7 3770k ( the best of lga 1150 and 1155 ) are quite a considerable difference. Especially if you include overclocking in hand. So perhaps a 4770 over a 3770 would be a negligible gain in performance. But if you go higher up the scale, it's a different story. And it's clear, that 1150 as alot more to offer in contrast to lga 1155. 

The difference between a 4770 and a 4770K in terms of CPU price isn't huge, no, but going from an H81 to a Z97 board? You're looking at $100 for a cheap Z97 board in good shape. I sold an AsRock Z97 Extreme4, a pretty basic Z97 board all things considered, with no I/O shield, a torn off SATA port and a known issue where it would only run RAM in single channel for $110 as-is. If you're going to get a 4770K but put it on a locked H81 board, why bother spending the extra money on a 4770K?

 

24 minutes ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

Perhaps you don't use cinebench but I do. And so do a wide variety of technology related channels including Linus. Something that you and I can both agree on. Cinebench, regardless on what your position on Cinebench is, if you revel in or if you find it distasteful. It is highly accurate as depicted by plenty of reliable sources. Cinebench is the go to CPU benchmark for alot of people including Linus, Bitwit and literally every technology channel.  

Benchmarks are good things. Overreliance on a single benchmark is bad. Cinebench is great for showing you what a CPU can do when forced to go at full burst all the time in a demanding rendering scenario. I use it a lot. It's a great stress test, and a great yardstick for seeing what your own CPU is capable of if you overclock. I remember the first time I got a Pentium D to double-digits. I was sure that I had set the world ablaze, but that was actually just the Pentium D turning my computer into a campfire.

 

But I digress. Overreliance. Different benchmarks look at different things. Cinebench is a quick-hit benchmark. It'll tell you what your CPU is capable of during a short burst of intense activity. Something else, like RealBench, is a bit more comprehensive. It's going to pound your system in a series of tasks and test out not just the CPU, but also the GPU and memory, and how those parts are working together. If you want a gaming performance benchmark, Fire Strike and Time Spy are your lucky winners of the day. They look at CPU performance in a gaming scenario, not just a general workload or heavy rendering task that has very little to do with gaming performance. I can tell you from having owned both that in terms of real-world everyday use, if you are perceiving a significant difference between the 3770K and 4770K (actually, I was running the 4790K), it's because:

 

1. You've overclocked one and not the other.

2. You've given one a much better airflow arrangement than the other.

3. You've given one a ton more RAM.

4. You've given one an SSD and left the other on a WD Green.

5. You spent a lot more on the 4770K and can't handle the thought of being wrong.

6. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just digging in your heels because you don't want to admit as much.

 

@Kallekorv, to answer your original question before all this nonsense broke out, the Xeon is the better CPU, period. However, before feeling compelled to respond to all this silliness, I believe I saw you mention getting a 4590S and a compatible board for $90. If so, you have found a winner of a deal. At that price, I'm guessing it came out of an Optiplex or HP Elite workstation, so just make sure that either the PSU connectors are standard or you can get a hold of an adapter (readily available and cheap).

[MS-DOS Guy]

1 hour ago, fasauceome said:

Why would I have to prove that? I never said it was the case, I said the performance difference in gaming was very small. My claim is that they are very much the same investment.

And I said the performance difference is bigger. I'm getting a headache debating this. The only thing that would settle who's claim is correct is evidence. As I've said, if you can't provide it, then I don't really care. I'll let OP decide what he wants to get. A i5 4590s or an Xeon. I've already made my points, you've already made yours. If you decide to give me evidence that is genuine. I will courteously apologize. But so far, the only advancement we've made is going back in forth making claims ( I've given you userbenchmark results and cinebench but apparently those are inaccurate ).

 

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

2. The E3-1230 V2 will work in an H61 motherboard that hasn't been locked down by the OEM (looking at you, Dell). If you step outside at the right time of day, you'll see old H61 boards raining from the sky, and the angels will only take $20 from you.

Those $20 H61 boards have bad VRM ( unless were talking about Asus boards or whatever but those Intel ones are a piece of crap ) and alot of other problems. Also, as you even said yourself there rather hard to find. And I can't find any good ones that are cheap on ebay. Also, buying those H61 boards also means you can't upgrade to better processors so you'll be forced to buy an entirely new motherboard. A wise decision. 

 

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

to answer your original question before all this nonsense broke out, the Xeon is the better CPU, period.

And is also more expensive considering the motherboard prices at hand. 

 

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

no, but going from an H81 to a Z97 board? You're looking at $100 for a cheap Z97 board in good shape.

Z97 is expensive? 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-MSI-MS-7816-Z97-G43-Intel-Z97-Motherboard-LGA-1150-DDR3/282824198089?epid=13013807675&hash=item41d9a2c7c9%3Ag%3AHLAAAOSwhiZaa8o6&LH_BIN=1

 

Because it looks like you just fabricated that price tag there. There quite inexpensive as far as I can tell. 

 

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

and while they aren't the prettiest, they'll get the job done.

         I don't want to be hypocrtical here. I use a bad motherboard with horrible specs, has proprietary ports all over it. And there's tremendous coil whine in the chokes of the VRM ( that's a thing ) due to horrible VRM. I had to buy a new one. The same quality of all those cheap H61 boards, I had to buy a new one in the first couple months and my current one is already having issues that I just listed. Now I plan to get a new one obviously once I can afford a better motherboard but buying a cheap H61 motherboard maybe isn't the best route. Also as I said before, buying a H61 board means if you plan to upgrade your processor your going to be forced to buy an entirely new motherboard. Since a i7 3770k is better than a i7 3770 financially and performance wise. Or you can go the 1150 route and save alot more money without sacrificing performance or bad motherboards for the cheap since all of them are cheap and provide good VRM, good specs and reviews as oppose to all those H61 mobos.   

[GoldenLag]

2 hours ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

If a CPU has a good cinebench score, it can determine gaming performance, yes. Cinebench tells you how fast your CPU can render a scene using all CPU threads. That goes hand-in-hand with rendering in video games. 

*looks at 2990wx

 

 

um, daheck you on about. 

[Kallekorv]

5 hours ago, aisle9 said:

1. A Xeon E3-1230 V2 is functionally identical to an i7-3770 without an iGPU. They're the same chip on the same socket and can use the same chipsets.

2. We're talking about hardware from 2013-2015. There is no upgrade path for any of it. If you're buying a Haswell i5 because you want an upgrade path, you're doing it wrong.

3. LGA 1150 motherboards are much more of a pain in the ass for me to get on the cheap than LGA 1155.

 

1. Not everyone has a 600W power supply with multiple PCIe plugs ready for a 980 Ti.

2. The E3-1230 V2 will work in an H61 motherboard that hasn't been locked down by the OEM (looking at you, Dell). If you step outside at the right time of day, you'll see old H61 boards raining from the sky, and the angels will only take $20 from you. H81 boards, on the other hand, are a much more pricey pain in the nuts.

 

There is a 5% generational performance gap between Ivy and Haswell. The first huge jump in CPU performance on Intel's Core i series came from Nehalem to Sandy Bridge. After that, it was all roughly 5% incremental gen-to-gen bumps up until Coffee Lake. An i7-3770K not only compares to a Haswell i7, it will kick the piss out of a locked i7-4770 if you get a decent overclock on it.

 

Again with this cheaper motherboards nonsense. H61 boards are like hookers out behind the Palazzo. They're all over the place, they're cheap as hell, and while they aren't the prettiest, they'll get the job done.

 

The difference between a 4770 and a 4770K in terms of CPU price isn't huge, no, but going from an H81 to a Z97 board? You're looking at $100 for a cheap Z97 board in good shape. I sold an AsRock Z97 Extreme4, a pretty basic Z97 board all things considered, with no I/O shield, a torn off SATA port and a known issue where it would only run RAM in single channel for $110 as-is. If you're going to get a 4770K but put it on a locked H81 board, why bother spending the extra money on a 4770K?

 

Benchmarks are good things. Overreliance on a single benchmark is bad. Cinebench is great for showing you what a CPU can do when forced to go at full burst all the time in a demanding rendering scenario. I use it a lot. It's a great stress test, and a great yardstick for seeing what your own CPU is capable of if you overclock. I remember the first time I got a Pentium D to double-digits. I was sure that I had set the world ablaze, but that was actually just the Pentium D turning my computer into a campfire.

 

But I digress. Overreliance. Different benchmarks look at different things. Cinebench is a quick-hit benchmark. It'll tell you what your CPU is capable of during a short burst of intense activity. Something else, like RealBench, is a bit more comprehensive. It's going to pound your system in a series of tasks and test out not just the CPU, but also the GPU and memory, and how those parts  are working together. If you want a gaming performance benchmark, Fire Strike and Time Spy are your lucky winners of the day. They look at CPU performance in a gaming scenario, not just a general workload or heavy rendering task that has very little to do with gaming performance. I can tell you from having owned both that in terms of real-world everyday use, if you are perceiving a significant difference between the 3770K and 4770K (actually, I was running the 4790K), it's because:

 

1. You've overclocked one and not the other.

2. You've given one a much better airflow arrangement than the other.

3. You've given one a ton more RAM.

4. You've given one an SSD and left the other on a WD Green.

5. You spent a lot more on the 4770K and can't handle the thought of being wrong.

6. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just digging in your heels because you don't want to admit as much.

 

@Kallekorv, to answer your original question before all this nonsense broke out, the Xeon is the better CPU, period. However, before feeling compelled to respond to all this silliness, I believe I saw you mention getting a 4590S and a compatible board for $90. If so, you have found a winner of a deal. At that price, I'm guessing it came out of an Optiplex or HP Elite workstation, so just make sure that either the PSU connectors are standard or you can get a hold of an adapter (readily available and cheap).

Thanks for the response @aisle9! Conclusive answers to pretty much all the topics brought up here. A fun read :D

 

Sorry for the belated response! I posted the thread during the night and subsequently slept through most of you guys discussion. 

 

As for the build; I am buying either the 4590s or the Xeon E3-1230V2 (for $20) and I will pick the appropriate motherboard accordingly. About $50 - $60 total for either platform. 

I am pairing it up with an Asus gtx 680 directcu II ($40), 8gb of 1600mHz RAM ($20) and a 600W PSU ($20). Only DIY/ enthusiast hardware! No OEM crap. :)

 

The aim is to complete the build for $150 - $180. 

 

I am now partial to the Xeon processor but it seems harder to come by a proper 1155 board. How much extra money & time do you think it's worth spending to get the Xeon motherboard considering the budget and overall nature of the build? It is a gift for my 9-year-old cousin who is currently gaming on an OEM desktop with a core i3 4170 with integrated HD 4400 graphics.

 

Any further advice and guidance is greatly appreciated!

 

[Herman Mcpootis]

3 hours ago, Kallekorv said:

 

The aim is to complete the build for $150 - $180. 

 

I am now partial to the Xeon processor but it seems harder to come by a proper 1155 board. How much extra money & time do you think it's worth spending to get the Xeon motherboard considering the budget and overall nature of the build? It is a gift for my 9-year-old cousin who is currently gaming on an OEM desktop with a core i3 4170 with integrated HD 4400 graphics.

 

Any further advice and guidance is greatly appreciated!

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/H61-1155-DDR3-motherboard-used-original-for-Gigabyte-GA-P61-S3-H61-DDR3-LGA1155-P61-S3/32816722537.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.205.439d5b07UFKru2&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10068_319_10059_10884_317_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10307_537_536,searchweb201603_52,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=e841ed4c-3762-4f8e-bfcb-beba5ba4681d-35&algo_pvid=e841ed4c-3762-4f8e-bfcb-beba5ba4681d $35, check with seller if it's updated for ivy bridge CPUs.

[aisle9]

47 minutes ago, MS-DOS Guy said:

This LGA 1150 motherboard is not only cheaper than all of those. Has M.2 support, DDR4 compared to DDR3, a proper UEFI bios, more than adequate VRM, Gigabyte Ethernet, 6gb/s sata 3 ports, and is overall nicer looking in general. 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-H110M-A-M-2-Intel-H110-LGA-1150-DDR4-EB10131/264312191349?hash=item3d8a3bf975:g:K7wAAOSw8X9clVHa#viTabs_0

"The socket has missing pins."

 

So you're trying to argue that a motherboard on the wrong socket with missing pins from some random dude on eBay who's totally sure it works is better than an H61 board with a 60-day guarantee coming from a reputable reseller?

 

For the record, since you keep going on about VRMs, the MSI H81 boards had some of the worst power delivery ever. The bargain basement crap like the Eco, the G33 (could be wrong on the exact number) was so bad that a G3258 could kill the board. Do you know how ridiculous it is for a 54W chip to kill a motherboard? Want to guess how long that board will last if it's gamed on by an i5 every day? MSI and AsRock made some godawful shit on LGA 1150 before really cleaning up their act with LGA 1151. You're continuing to insist that you're the smartest guy in the room while not knowing basic things like sockets, power delivery and which manufacturer/socket combinations to avoid, and you're handing the OP terrible advice over and over as a result. Please, stop.

 

The H61 board @Herman Mcpootis linked is plenty for a locked 4C/8T Xeon. For added peace of mind, one could use a downdraft style cooler like this, this, this, or even just the Intel stock cooler to ensure good airflow across the VRMs at all times. But, as stated earlier, if the OP has a 4590S/board combo for $90, that's the way to go unless that Xeon by itself is ridiculously cheap.

[aisle9]

14 hours ago, Kallekorv said:

It is a gift for my 9-year-old cousin who is currently gaming on an OEM desktop with a core i3 4170 with integrated HD 4400 graphics.

Wait a damn second, if he's gaming on an i3-4170, he's got a Haswell board already. Do you know the prebuilt model, by chance? As long as it's not a wacky proprietary board or PSU and the BIOS isn't locked out of using Xeons, you can reuse it in a different case, drop in a $100 E3-1230 V3 (Haswell i7-based Xeon, 4C/8T), a $30 PSU and an $85 RX 570, then sell the i3 for about $40 after eBay fees and shipping to round it out at $175.

[Herman Mcpootis]

18 minutes ago, aisle9 said:

 

The H61 board @Herman Mcpootis linked is plenty for a locked 4C/8T Xeon. For added peace of mind, one could use a downdraft style cooler like this, this, this, or even just the Intel stock cooler to ensure good airflow across the VRMs at all times. But, as stated earlier, if the OP has a 4590S/board combo for $90, that's the way to go unless that Xeon by itself is ridiculously cheap.

the 1230 v2 actually starts at $65 on ebay, if he can get that and the H61 board then the small extra is worth it.

[aisle9]

2 minutes ago, Herman Mcpootis said:

the 1230 v2 actually starts at $65 on ebay, if he can get that and the H61 board then the small extra is worth it.

Yeah, but if he already has a (presumably) H81 board and it doesn't have a screwy BIOS or proprietary PSU connector?

[Herman Mcpootis]

1 hour ago, aisle9 said:

Yeah, but if he already has a (presumably) H81 board and it doesn't have a screwy BIOS or proprietary PSU connector?

then it would be the best choice, but he says he's gonna sell the rig or smth.