more peltiers

[shaneschouw]

OK... so this idea has been running through my head for a few years now... never had the funding to do it, now i do, but i first wanted to see what the community thinks...

 

So, i was thinking, the problem with cooling is that you are using air to cool your components, but you cooling capacity mainly depends on the temperature of that air...

 

But, what if you seal off your case completely... and use peltiers to cool down the air that's cooling down your components...

 

As i see things, this gives us a few major pros...

 

1. dust and dirt would be at zero with the case being sealed

2. your components would be cool cause its easier to cool down a small amount of air for the PC to use. 

3. noise would be down to a minimum cause you would be use the lowest amount of fans possible

 

the cons here would be

 

1. water condensation, which is why i want to seal the case

2. water in the air that's already inside the case, but i suppose we can use some kind of dehumidifier

3. would make it VERY difficult to change out parts for whatever reason...

 

What are your thoughts here? how viable would such a system really be?

[.Apex.]

27 minutes ago, shaneschouw said:

2. your components would be cool cause its easier to cool down a small amount of air for the PC to use. 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it wouldn't be easier to cool since components are constantly generating heat, and you would need the same amount of cooling power as your PC is generating to keep it at the same starting temperature right? essentially you would be wasting a shit ton of power instead of using the natural air to cool the components, that's why putting your PC inside a refrigerator doesn't work, the amount of heat being generated is over saturating the condenser, which makes the air inside the refrigerator hotter than the air outside.

[UrbanFreestyle]

erm... how are you cooling the peltiers?

[wojtepanik]

12 minutes ago, UrbanFreestyle said:

erm... how are you cooling the peltiers?

If your PC outputs X watts of heat, sealing it and cooling it with peltiers will output X+Y watts, where Y is heat generated by peltiers, which will be significant, as peltiers are inefficient, so yeah, PC as such will be cool, but you will need great cooling for the cells...

[Steven123123]

I think you'd be better off evaporating water than using refrigeration.

[UrbanFreestyle]

Just now, wojtepanik said:

If your PC outputs X watts of heat, sealing it and cooling it with peltiers will output X+Y watts, where Y is heat generated by peltiers, which will be significant, as peltiers are inefficient, so yeah, PC as such will be cool, but you will need great cooling for the cells...

and this cooling will probably be inside the case so...erm... i don;t get the point.

[NotSoEpicMods]

From my understanding of peltiers they have a delta of 65C so you're still limited by the cooling capacity of the air to cool the peltiers so they can sustain the delta you want. For example if the hot side of your peltiers are only able to be cooled to 85C then your cool side would only be 20C then you have the transfer efficiency of the air so you're limited to what the coolers in the case can handle at 20C. 

 

So as I see it you're just wasting a lot of energy trying to do something like you're explaining. It would be much more efficient to just plot the peltier on the part you're wanting to cool and have a heatsink on that.

[wojtepanik]

Just now, UrbanFreestyle said:

and this cooling will probably be inside the case so...erm... i don;t get the point.

I was thinking about heatpipes coming out of the pc to the peltiers mounted on the surface of the case on the outside. That would be good, but the reality is different

[wojtepanik]

1 minute ago, NotSoEpicMods said:

From my understanding of peltiers they have a delta of 65C so you're still limited by the cooling capacity of the air to cool the peltiers so they can sustain the delta you want. For example if the hot side of your peltiers are only able to be cooled to 85C then your cool side would only be 20C then you have the transfer efficiency of the air so you're limited to what the coolers in the case can handle at 20C. 

 

So as I see it you're just wasting a lot of energy trying to do something like you're explaining. It would be much more efficient to just plot the peltier on the part you're wanting to cool and have a heatsink on that.

how hot peltiers may run ? If my cpu is 90, then the peltier will be 155? what is the efficiency curve?

[NotSoEpicMods]

Just now, wojtepanik said:

how hot peltiers may run ? If my cpu is 90, then the peltier will be 155? what is the efficiency curve?

Unfortunately I don't know technical specs of peltiers too well. I just know what I do from information on those electric coolers which also use peltiers which is why they can be either hot or cold by switching the current flow.

[SolarNova]

2 hours ago, shaneschouw said:

OK... so this idea has been running through my head for a few years now... never had the funding to do it, now i do, but i first wanted to see what the community thinks...

 

So, i was thinking, the problem with cooling is that you are using air to cool your components, but you cooling capacity mainly depends on the temperature of that air...

 

But, what if you seal off your case completely... and use peltiers to cool down the air that's cooling down your components...

 

As i see things, this gives us a few major pros...

 

1. dust and dirt would be at zero with the case being sealed

2. your components would be cool cause its easier to cool down a small amount of air for the PC to use. 

3. noise would be down to a minimum cause you would be use the lowest amount of fans possible

 

the cons here would be

 

1. water condensation, which is why i want to seal the case

2. water in the air that's already inside the case, but i suppose we can use some kind of dehumidifier

3. would make it VERY difficult to change out parts for whatever reason...

 

What are your thoughts here? how viable would such a system really be?

 

Hi there.

 

So i have already gone through this thought process myself, and here is how it works.

 

You start here , where u are, you find out all the information about what u need to do to get this to A) work safely, B) work efficiently, and then C)What performance you can expect.

 

After that you change up ur plans going further down the rabbit hole, eventually ending up in a situation where ur planning to build a subzero system.

 

 

So, the issues involved with ur plan.

 

A) A sealed case works, but not with air .. its to moist.

B) Dehumidifies only work down to about 30-40% humidity, which isn't good enough, and good ones are to big to fit inside the case

C) TECs are very inefficient

D) Condensation protection will eventually fail

 

Solutions ..time to go down the rabbit hole.

 

A)

: use a sealed case with inlet and outlet air valves.

: fill it with dry gas, like nitrogen.

: use a chiller for the liquid loop, not TECs

 

Or

 

B)

: Use a chill-box, this sets the ambient air subzero, ice builds up on the coldest part, a radiator in the case.

: your now looking at subzero options.

 

Long story short, as soon as u go sub ambient, you need to start thinking about how ur not going to kill ur components with moisture. Leaving the system in a moist air environment will mean that even with condensation protection, it will eventually fail unless u get incredibly lucky.

 

Final option.

 

There almost approach.

 

Go slightly sub ambient.

Use a dehumidifier to get the air as dry as possible and then keep ur cooling to stay just above the lower dew point.

This is still a lot of work for little gain, the TEC will be colder than the air target so u still need to deal with that accumulating ICE / moisture, and its still very inefficient, a chiller would still be a better option.

 

[Benjeh]

4 hours ago, shaneschouw said:

OK... so this idea has been running through my head for a few years now... never had the funding to do it, now i do, but i first wanted to see what the community thinks...

 

So, i was thinking, the problem with cooling is that you are using air to cool your components, but you cooling capacity mainly depends on the temperature of that air...

 

But, what if you seal off your case completely... and use peltiers to cool down the air that's cooling down your components...

 

As i see things, this gives us a few major pros...

 

1. dust and dirt would be at zero with the case being sealed

2. your components would be cool cause its easier to cool down a small amount of air for the PC to use. 

3. noise would be down to a minimum cause you would be use the lowest amount of fans possible

 

the cons here would be

 

1. water condensation, which is why i want to seal the case

2. water in the air that's already inside the case, but i suppose we can use some kind of dehumidifier

3. would make it VERY difficult to change out parts for whatever reason...

 

What are your thoughts here? how viable would such a system really be?

The reason people stopped cooling their rigs with pelts is because its extremely inefficient, the reason why is they have a hot side to them which needs to be cooled or it will overheat. If you fail to cool it properly the hot side will heat the cold side, you can't power the ones you require off a psu either.

I suggest you look into making one of these.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/133-phase-change/1533164-24-7-sub-zero-liquid-chillbox-club.html

[shaneschouw]

what if the TECs are mounted hot side to the case, using it to conduct heat through the case to a heat sink that cools off the heat sink? 

that would eliminate the need to cool the TEC down with the cold air you are making inside the chassis... 

 

in other words. TEC sandwiched between two heat sinks with the metal on the case on the hot side between heat sink and fan... 

 

im not sure if im explaining correctly... 

[SolarNova]

1 hour ago, shaneschouw said:

what if the TECs are mounted hot side to the case, using it to conduct heat through the case to a heat sink that cools off the heat sink? 

that would eliminate the need to cool the TEC down with the cold air you are making inside the chassis... 

 

in other words. TEC sandwiched between two heat sinks with the metal on the case on the hot side between heat sink and fan... 

 

im not sure if im explaining correctly... 

Understand what ur saying but ...

To be honest the amount of work you would need to put in to get it to even work somewhat well, the kind of system u would end up with, the power requirements and costs involved ...you would be far better of just buying a chiller, its simpler and more controllable.

 

Something like a Hailea HC500 would be enough. Or better yet find a R22 refrigerant HC1000, more expensive but you can, if u so choose, go subzero with it with some light modding.

[W-L]

22 hours ago, shaneschouw said:

what if the TECs are mounted hot side to the case, using it to conduct heat through the case to a heat sink that cools off the heat sink? 

that would eliminate the need to cool the TEC down with the cold air you are making inside the chassis... 

 

in other words. TEC sandwiched between two heat sinks with the metal on the case on the hot side between heat sink and fan... 

 

im not sure if im explaining correctly... 

You would need a massive heatsink the side of a chassis will not even come close to enough. Some TEC units I've seen used in very specific industrial applications will have double to triple the wattage of the heat generating device with very carefully regulated control to ensure it stay at a specific temperature range that is above ambient. On top of that the hotside heatsink would need to be large enough to disspate the power of the TEC. 

 

If the case required the need to be sealed due to dust ingress there are quite powerful passive PC's that are essentially a large heatsink extrusion. 

[Benjeh]

On 4/18/2019 at 10:35 PM, shaneschouw said:

what if the TECs are mounted hot side to the case, using it to conduct heat through the case to a heat sink that cools off the heat sink? 

that would eliminate the need to cool the TEC down with the cold air you are making inside the chassis... 

 

in other words. TEC sandwiched between two heat sinks with the metal on the case on the hot side between heat sink and fan... 

 

im not sure if im explaining correctly... 

You are, we're just pointing out all the holes in your swiss cheese logic.

[shaneschouw]

On 4/20/2019 at 9:46 PM, Benjeh said:

You are, we're just pointing out all the holes in your swiss cheese logic.

thank you kindly.