LT Cooling: Copper Shim, Thermal Pad or just Paste?

[pete_agreatguy]

Hi all,

 

I need some laptop cooling advice. 

 

Brief Description of what's happened:

 

My dad's Lenovo G710 laptop recently stopped working (specs and service manual link are at the end of this post).

 

I've diagnosed the issue to be the nvidia graphics card needs reseating (or whatever the term is).

 

Questions regarding cooling:

 

I've always removed thermal pads and just used MX-4 paste from Arctic Cooling on the CPU and GPU.

 

But I've been doing research and found conflicting advice saying that I should use a copper shim on top of the GPU as well as paste to aid in cooling (transfer the heat).

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Does a copper shim help or not in reducing temperatures and therefore allow a longer life of the laptop?

 

I've done extra research and decided to use the Gelid Solutions GC-Extreme thermal paste next instead of MX-4.

 

Thanks for your advice all

 

Dad's Laptop Specs (service manual download link PDF):

 

Lenovo G710 laptop: Intel i3 4000m cpu, 4GB ddr3-1600 ram, nvidia 720m gpu, kingston 240gb ssd hdd, dvd-rw, wifi and bluetooth etc.

[zMeul]

Quote

 

But I've been doing research and found conflicting advice saying that I should use a copper shim on top of the GPU as well as paste to aid in cooling (transfer the heat)

 

is there data? if not, ignore it

 

thermal compound is not ideal when doing thermal transfer - it still has thermal resistance

metal to metal is the best way to transfer heat, but that means the surfaces need to be mirror finish

and to apply two layers of thermal compound?!!?!? why!?

[Droidbot]

calling laptop thermal guy @Pendragon

 

GC-E is good for first time pasters, if you want to learn go for Liquid Metal, that shit cools really well but it can get messy

 

is the GPU overheating at boot making the entire machine chug or what's happening? 

[pete_agreatguy]

5 minutes ago, Droidbot said:

calling laptop thermal guy @Pendragon

 

GC-E is good for first time pasters, if you want to learn go for Liquid Metal, that shit cools really well but it can get messy

 

is the GPU overheating at boot making the entire machine chug or what's happening? 

Hi, from testing it when he bought it to me yesterday:

1. Reset BIOS defaults and still no display (including the external)
2. Power tests all fine (including with and without battery/adapter (inc. a different adapter)
3. Upon opening the laptop, the dust build up was minimal, system fan was fine, no beeps at all
4. Swapped RAM and it still had no display
5. Diagnosed as nvidia gpu needed reseating (solder disconnected from motherboard or something)

From what I can tell there are no issues with overheating as I had tested it 6 months earlier with Furmark and Prime95 and all was fine.

 

I haven't the tools to reseat the GPU chip so it's currently in for repair at a laptop shop.

 

Are you saying stick to just using thermal paste? i.e. Don't use a copper shim?

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, pete_agreatguy said:

I've diagnosed the issue to be the nvidia graphics card needs reseating (or whatever the term is).

 

 

 

repasting? repadding? reseating is where the core doesn't match up with the PCB and you need to resolder it on and I don't think that's what we're talking about here. 

 

1 hour ago, pete_agreatguy said:

1. Diagnosed as nvidia gpu needed reseating (solder disconnected from motherboard or something)

2

Oh. You do need reseating holy fuck wtf happend to the laptop. 

 

And no you shouldn't use a copper shim on laptop heatsinks ever. If it comes to the point where you need a copper shim for contact, your heatsink is actually fucked. Yes Gelid GC is the best non-liquid metal paste so use that. How you can tell if you need a new heatsink or thicker paste is just apply the paste like you would normally. Screw the heatsink back on. take it off and observe the spread. If it's bad take a picture and we'll tell you what is the issue from there. If the spread is good, nothing wrong, move on with life, wipe it clean and do it again.

 

NOTE: above method only works for non-hdt heatsinks. I have no idea if your heatsink is HDT or not. Most aren't. 95% of latops don't have HDT heatsinks, but you never know. HDT = Heatpipe Direct Touch

[pete_agreatguy]

Thanks for the reply  

4 hours ago, Pendragon said:

repasting? repadding? reseating is where the core doesn't match up with the PCB and you need to resolder it on and I don't think that's what we're talking about here. 

 

Oh. You do need reseating holy fuck wtf happend to the laptop. 

 

And no you shouldn't use a copper shim on laptop heatsinks ever. If it comes to the point where you need a copper shim for contact, your heatsink is actually fucked. Yes Gelid GC is the best non-liquid metal paste so use that. How you can tell if you need a new heatsink or thicker paste is just apply the paste like you would normally. Screw the heatsink back on. take it off and observe the spread. If it's bad take a picture and we'll tell you what is the issue from there. If the spread is good, nothing wrong, move on with life, wipe it clean and do it again.

 

NOTE: above method only works for non-hdt heatsinks. I have no idea if your heatsink is HDT or not. Most aren't. 95% of latops don't have HDT heatsinks, but you never know. HDT = Heatpipe Direct Touch

No idea if it's HDT. It looks like this one (note: that's not my dad's laptop).

 

I'll get some of that paste then. It's with the professionals at the moment being repaired so I cannot test the thermal paste yet but I will do when I get it back

 

Not sure as to the cause:

 

1st time he noticed it, there was screen but it was powering on with the fan spinning. He waited 15 minutes and it started without issues. Shut down without issues. He came back to it 2 weeks later and it booted with the safe boot screen (boot normal etc), left it on when he went out. Came back (several hours later), it was still on but no screen.

 

He's not done serious gaming on it. He only uses it for work. It was a bargain buy as got it for £250 when it was worth £799 back in Mar 2014. So it's lasted a good while. I upgraded the paste to MX-4, upgraded the 1TB hybrid to a 240GB SSD and put on Windows 7 pro x64 for him.

[pete_agreatguy]

@Pendragon

 

UPDATE: The reseating did not work and therefore the laptop is totally dead. After talking with the IT engineer at the shop I took it to, he said that it's a very common problem because it was a design flaw within all models, regardless of brand. He suggested not to use copper shims but to use a good paste (non liquid). Adding that, if there is a slight gap (talking mm) to use thermal pads instead.

 

So, I have therefore talked with my dad and found him a replacement modern laptop (a Dell Inspiron 5759 i5 6200U). I got a good deal as got it for £280 and it's not even a year old.

 

I'll apply some of the GC Extreme paste mentioned above to both the GPU and CPU.

 

Query though; should I just apply it and let the heat spread it, or spread it manually (cautious of air holes)?

 

On desktops I tend to do let the heat spread the paste so advice would be much appreciated

[Pendragon]

7 hours ago, pete_agreatguy said:

He suggested not to use copper shims but to use a good paste (non liquid). Adding that, if there is a slight gap (talking mm) to use thermal pads instead.

A gap between what? The heatsink and the die? And use thermal pads? I mean if you're using CLU thermal pads sure, but those are expensive and require you to heat them up to 80C+ before they burn in is complete. Otherwise traditional thermal pads will fucking burn out your die. 

 

7 hours ago, pete_agreatguy said:

Query though; should I just apply it and let the heat spread it, or spread it manually (cautious of air holes)?

 

CPU die is generally long and thin so just a long thin line down. GPU die X pattern. You can just let the paste spread. 

[pete_agreatguy]

2 hours ago, Pendragon said:

A gap between what? The heatsink and the die? And use thermal pads? I mean if you're using CLU thermal pads sure, but those are expensive and require you to heat them up to 80C+ before they burn in is complete. Otherwise traditional thermal pads will fucking burn out your die. 

 

CPU die is generally long and thin so just a long thin line down. GPU die X pattern. You can just let the paste spread. 

@Pendragon

 

I did mean the gap between the top of the GPU "die" and the bottom of the heatsink

 

I don't plan to use CLU paste. I'll stick with the GC-Extreme. It's reviews look really good. That CLU is seriously expensive!

 

Just to clarify, it's best to stick with paste than use a thermal pad on the GPU and CPU then?

 

Thank you so much for your advice as it is highly appreciated.

[Pendragon]

18 minutes ago, pete_agreatguy said:

Just to clarify, it's best to stick with paste than use a thermal pad on the GPU and CPU then?

 

 

 

Yes 100%. If there's a big gap, either RMA it or use the Coollaboratory thermal pads or a copper shim. Don't use normal thermal pads on laptop dies. Gelid GC is the best there is.

[pete_agreatguy]

1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

Yes 100%. If there's a big gap, either RMA it or use the Coollaboratory thermal pads or a copper shim. Don't use normal thermal pads on laptop dies. Gelid GC is the best there is.

Thank you @Pendragon. 

[pete_agreatguy]

@Pendragon,

 

Sorry bud, can I pick your brains again? This is for the replacement laptop (the Dell Inspiron 5759).

 

Is the following a thermal pad replacement or just a paste job? Thanks in advance chuck:

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1w7Tm1SmIHvOXdEMU44bHZXZ3c?usp=sharing

 

There should be three images in the above link - if not let me know

 

EDIT: Service Manual states:

Quote

NOTE: The original thermal grease can be reused if the original system board and fan are reinstalled together. If either the system board or the fan is replaced, use the thermal pad provided in the kit to ensure that thermal conductivity is achieved.

So should I get one of those expensive thermal pads instead of using the GE thermal paste?

[Pendragon]

2 hours ago, pete_agreatguy said:

So should I get one of those expensive thermal pads instead of using the GE thermal paste?

no. 

 

2 hours ago, pete_agreatguy said:

Is the following a thermal pad replacement or just a paste job? Thanks in advance chuck:

 

repaste here. dell's standard goop is really bad. also you only need thermal pads in locations where the heatsink already has thermal pads on it stock (often to cool vrms and such). I don't have a 7559 on hand but @Imglidinhere does. he can help you with specifics. but yes that is a repaste job. 

[pete_agreatguy]

1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

no. 

 

repaste here. dell's standard goop is really bad. also you only need thermal pads in locations where the heatsink already has thermal pads on it stock (often to cool vrms and such). I don't have a 7559 on hand but @Imglidinhere does. he can help you with specifics. but yes that is a repaste job. 

Thanks.

 

I asked because there seems to be a gap:

 

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/R5IYBLhwLkkHFml-3aDdJlw_ZNGFCsQbcvoquelnGQrSqVkPB87Nh8eN29GAZKOubpk9TSpZmhdANpg=w1920-h960-rw

 

CPU without thermal solution (i5 6200u).

 

Also to clarify, it's a 5759 (suspect a typo on your part).

 

EDIT:

 

@Pendragon, please could you edit the CPU image with colours as to where I should apply thermal paste and in what pattern? I would really appreciate it

[Pendragon]

Just now, pete_agreatguy said:

I asked because there seems to be a gap:

 

 

those are entirely different dies. One is for the CPU and one is for the iGPU. You just apply thermal paste on both dies and everything will be fine. 

 

1 minute ago, pete_agreatguy said:

Also to clarify, it's a 5759 (suspect a typo on your part).

I stand corrected. 

[pete_agreatguy]

2 minutes ago, pete_agreatguy said:

 

@Pendragon, please could you edit the CPU image with colours as to where I should apply thermal paste and in what pattern? I would really appreciate it

Pretty please

[Pendragon]

@pete_agreatguy Two dies. Just apply the dot method on the left and line method on the right.

[pete_agreatguy]

7 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

@pete_agreatguy Two dies. Just apply the dot method on the left and line method on the right.

Brilliant and understood  Thank you so much

 

ps: I'll post some results of the difference between temperatures as I'll be stress testing dells thermal solution compared to the GE paste

[pete_agreatguy]

@Pendragon,

 

Temperate results are as I expected.

 

I've seen a good 4-5 degrees drop in temperatures on the CPU and a few on the GPU also.

 

Test environment:

- Ambient temp of 16 deg C on all tests

- High Power Plan used on all tests

- Ran for 30 minutes exactly on all tests

- No network connections

- Same settings for Prime95 and Furmark

 

CPU Results:

Dell Thermal Paste:

 

GE Extreme Thermal Paste:

 

GPU Results (Furmark, max resolution 1600x900, AA off, full screen, rotating camera):

Dell Thermal Paste:

 

GE Extreme: