Comparison of different camera systems

[geomi neun babo]

I just realized today that this forum has a section for photos and videos and there seems to be a few people who know their stuff.  Perhaps one of you can give me a different perspective.

 

I've been using a Canon 5DII and 5DIII system as a freelance cameraman for filming music and corporate videos.  But lately I haven't been getting hired out as much and I think its because clients want a real video camera being used to film their stuff.  So I'm thinking about investing in a proper video camera but don't know which one to get. I am looking at cameras from Black Magic, Sony, Canon, and RED.  Right now I haven't set a budget yet because I am still exploring options and I have gone to different forums like Black Magic users, Sony, Canon, Red to see what people have to say about each camera system.  Obviously each forum tries to push their camera system so I thought I will also ask here to see if I can get some unbiased thoughts about cameras from those companies.

 

FYI, the cameras that I am looking at are

Ursa Mini and Ursa from Black Magic

FS5 and FS7 from Sony

Canon C300 and C500

RED Raven

 

I am also discussing with the various DPs that I have worked with and they each recommend a different camera system.  I don't have the money to invest in everything of course so I want to buy a system that can be more or less used widely.

[another random person]

9 minutes ago, geomi neun babo said:

*snip*

 

All of those cameras are great in one purpose and not so much in another, it depends on your use case whether you move around a lot or if your camera just sits on a tripod.

[geomi neun babo]

35 minutes ago, another random person said:

All of those cameras are great in one purpose and not so much in another, it depends on your use case whether you move around a lot or if your camera just sits on a tripod.

Anyone can make this kind of comment, this is not what I am looking for.

 

I have rigged my 5D's for run and gun.  Aside from the Ursa due to its weight, the other cameras can be rigged easily for run and gun.  The Ursa can also be rigged if the person using it is strong enough.

[another random person]

1 minute ago, geomi neun babo said:

Anyone can make this kind of comment, this is not what I am looking for.

 

I have rigged my 5D's for run and gun.  Aside from the Ursa due to its weight, the other cameras can be rigged easily for run and gun.  The Ursa can also be rigged if the person using it is strong enough.

 

Ok, i just needed to know your use case.

The FS5 is good for mobility but you're giving up the ability to capture raw footage and 4K/59.94p

The FS7 is similar but has many more recording formats but still is unable to capture raw footage

The E500 while keeping good mobility allows for raw video format capture in formats such as RGB 10 Bit and YCC 10 Bit

The E300 is just a lower range model to the E500 

Both the Ursa and Ursa mini are for colorists because they both have the most raw formats available. however the ursa is best used in a fixed location with multiple operators

the red raven is great for framerate with up to 120 frames at 4.5k and would be a good drone camera/ slo-mo camera but might not work as well in a fixed location as in connectivity.

 

This is my opinion but the URSA mini seems to be the best camera for your use case.

 

Please don't judge my help as not everybody is a Pro freelancer cameraman and most of us haven't been able to even touch the gear mentioned. Extensive research is needed to assist in your decision issue, I am a hobbyist cameraman myself hence my semi in-depth knowledge of cameras and formats.

 

 

[ALwin]

1 hour ago, another random person said:

Ok, i just needed to know your use case.

The FS5 is good for mobility but you're giving up the ability to capture raw footage and 4K/59.94p

The FS7 is similar but has many more recording formats but still is unable to capture raw footage

The E500 while keeping good mobility allows for raw video format capture in formats such as RGB 10 Bit and YCC 10 Bit

The E300 is just a lower range model to the E500 

Both the Ursa and Ursa mini are for colorists because they both have the most raw formats available. however the ursa is best used in a fixed location with multiple operators

the red raven is great for framerate with up to 120 frames at 4.5k and would be a good drone camera/ slo-mo camera but might not work as well in a fixed location as in connectivity.

 

This is my opinion but the URSA mini seems to be the best camera for your use case.

 

Please don't judge my help as not everybody is a Pro freelancer cameraman and most of us haven't been able to even touch the gear mentioned. Extensive research is needed to assist in your decision issue, I am a hobbyist cameraman myself hence my semi in-depth knowledge of cameras and formats.

 

 

All the cameras the OP listed are capable of recording at least 10-bit 422.  They are all also capable of recording RAW, either internally or with the use of an external recording device.

 

2 hours ago, geomi neun babo said:

I just realized today that this forum has a section for photos and videos and there seems to be a few people who know their stuff.  Perhaps one of you can give me a different perspective.

 

I've been using a Canon 5DII and 5DIII system as a freelance cameraman for filming music and corporate videos.  But lately I haven't been getting hired out as much and I think its because clients want a real video camera being used to film their stuff.  So I'm thinking about investing in a proper video camera but don't know which one to get. I am looking at cameras from Black Magic, Sony, Canon, and RED.  Right now I haven't set a budget yet because I am still exploring options and I have gone to different forums like Black Magic users, Sony, Canon, Red to see what people have to say about each camera system.  Obviously each forum tries to push their camera system so I thought I will also ask here to see if I can get some unbiased thoughts about cameras from those companies.

 

FYI, the cameras that I am looking at are

Ursa Mini and Ursa from Black Magic

FS5 and FS7 from Sony

Canon C300 and C500

RED Raven

 

I am also discussing with the various DPs that I have worked with and they each recommend a different camera system.  I don't have the money to invest in everything of course so I want to buy a system that can be more or less used widely.

 

@OP, I'll assume you've compared their prices so I won't go into detail about that.  But I will just mention you should not only look at the price of the camera body/basic kit itself but also the other investment you need to build up a proper kit around the camera (lenses, batteries, memory cards, rigs, etc.). In that regards, the Ursa Mini 4K will probably be among the cheapest investments though the 4.6K version and the FS5 can become similarly priced when kitted, and while the Red Raven price starts off around $6000 something or so, once kitted out it does go up to over $10,000.  A C500 could potentially be the most expensive of the lot, though since you probably own Canon lenses that could be a cost saving feature (with both the C300 or the C500).

 

You can compare the specs of all the different cameras for their recording frame rates and bit rates.  Figure out which ones you need.

 

I have used various Sony cameras before and currently own the FS7, while I have a friend who has the FS5 and used it a few times.  Last year when I was thinking about buying a new video camera the Ursa Mini was one of my choices, the main thing that put me off from buying it in the end was due to Black Magic's delays in production and delivery dates.

 

What I like about the Ursa Mini: price, large screen, ability to internally record in ProRes or RAW (though CFast cards are still relatively expensive).

 

What I like about the FS7 and FS5: quick access to a lot of camera functions via all the buttons and dials on the body (which the C300 and C500 also gives), already comes with mounting solutions for a shotgun, comes with a top handle, long handle for the grip (whereas the Ursa, Ursa Mini and the Red Raven requires additional accessories and rigging components). XQD card prices have also dropped in the US (if you live there) this year, and though I don't live in the US they are still worth ordering and importing to where I live rather than buying them locally (at least for me).

 

Also think about whether you want/need integrated ND filters.

 

Sony E-mount has the shortest of flange distances, meaning a lot more lenses can be used as long as the lens mount adapter is available.  But some also consider the E-mount to be the weakest of the mounts, compared to EF and PL mounts which are more sturdy for heavier lenses (and there are some cine lenses which are quite heavy).  Though you can lessen the strain on the E-mount by using a lens support system on the 15mm rails.

 

I was put off by the prices of the C300 and C500, though they are good cameras and Canon has lowered the price since the time I was thinking about which video camera to buy.

 

Red cameras seem to require the use of their "proprietary" SSD media.

 

In terms of dynamic range and low light adaptability the Ursa Mini 4K might be the weakest of the cameras.  Also all the Ursa and the Ursa Minis only have a max ISO rating of 800 I think.  Though a proper cinematographer will know the importance of using lights and not relying solely on the lighting of the environment.

 

All the cameras are capable of recording RAW, in one way or another.  The FS7 for example requires the use of an extension unit that mounts onto the back of the camera and an external recording device capable of RAW.  Other cameras might require the use of just an external recording device like an Odyssey 7Q via the HDMI or SDI out ports.

 

How big are you into things like color grading?  One thing I will warn you about each camera, even if you take all the cameras put them side by side and manually set the WB, ISO, shutter, frame rate, etc. to be the same and record the same scene.  Out of the camera footage will be slightly different with each one.  Between the Ursa and the Sony for example, there is a difference in how the skin tones look for straight out of the camera color.  This is due to how Black Magic and Sony each have different color sciences or at least views on how their sensors are tweaked for the image.  Of course, given enough patience in post processing, you can make them match.

 

And it can be worse if you set them up to utilize each camera's maximum dynamic range.  As you can see a hint of what I am talking about in this video here.  For example, a lot of people say that the FS7 has a slight magenta cast and that skin tones have a plastic look. I've used it in different types of lighting conditions and in some those issues are difficult to see and in other lighting conditions they stand out a lot.  I've also heard that the Ursa cameras have a slight greenish cast, while Canons seems to be leaning a bit towards the warm tones.  There's no single perfect camera, so you will have to develop understanding of how each camera behaves and work with it.

 

[geomi neun babo]

1 hour ago, another random person said:

Ok, i just needed to know your use case.

The FS5 is good for mobility but you're giving up the ability to capture raw footage and 4K/59.94p

The FS7 is similar but has many more recording formats but still is unable to capture raw footage

The E500 while keeping good mobility allows for raw video format capture in formats such as RGB 10 Bit and YCC 10 Bit

The E300 is just a lower range model to the E500 

Both the Ursa and Ursa mini are for colorists because they both have the most raw formats available. however the ursa is best used in a fixed location with multiple operators

the red raven is great for framerate with up to 120 frames at 4.5k and would be a good drone camera/ slo-mo camera but might not work as well in a fixed location as in connectivity.

 

This is my opinion but the URSA mini seems to be the best camera for your use case.

 

Please don't judge my help as not everybody is a Pro freelancer cameraman and most of us haven't been able to even touch the gear mentioned. Extensive research is needed to assist in your decision issue, I am a hobbyist cameraman myself hence my semi in-depth knowledge of cameras and formats.

 

 

Now this is a bit more helpful.  I have been reading reviews and watching videos about each camera and the difference in form factor and size are obvious.  The FS5 is surprisingly tiny and looks to be fantastic for traveling light.

[geomi neun babo]

46 minutes ago, ALwin said:

All the cameras the OP listed are capable of recording at least 10-bit 422.  They are all also capable of recording RAW, either internally or with the use of an external recording device.

 

 

@OP, I'll assume you've compared their prices so I won't go into detail about that.  But I will just mention you should not only look at the price of the camera body/basic kit itself but also the other investment you need to build up a proper kit around the camera (lenses, batteries, memory cards, rigs, etc.). In that regards, the Ursa Mini 4K will probably be among the cheapest investments though the 4.6K version and the FS5 can become similarly priced when kitted, and while the Red Raven price starts off around $6000 something or so, once kitted out it does go up to over $10,000.  A C500 could potentially be the most expensive of the lot, though since you probably own Canon lenses that could be a cost saving feature (with both the C300 or the C500).

 

You can compare the specs of all the different cameras for their recording frame rates and bit rates.  Figure out which ones you need.

 

I have used various Sony cameras before and currently own the FS7, while I have a friend who has the FS5 and used it a few times.  Last year when I was thinking about buying a new video camera the Ursa Mini was one of my choices, the main thing that put me off from buying it in the end was due to Black Magic's delays in production and delivery dates.

 

What I like about the Ursa Mini: price, large screen, ability to internally record in ProRes or RAW (though CFast cards are still relatively expensive).

 

What I like about the FS7 and FS5: quick access to a lot of camera functions via all the buttons and dials on the body (which the C300 and C500 also gives), already comes with mounting solutions for a shotgun, comes with a top handle, long handle for the grip (whereas the Ursa, Ursa Mini and the Red Raven requires additional accessories and rigging components). XQD card prices have also dropped in the US (if you live there) this year, and though I don't live in the US they are still worth ordering and importing to where I live rather than buying them locally (at least for me).

 

Also think about whether you want/need integrated ND filters.

 

Sony E-mount has the shortest of flange distances, meaning a lot more lenses can be used as long as the lens mount adapter is available.  But some also consider the E-mount to be the weakest of the mounts, compared to EF and PL mounts which are more sturdy for heavier lenses (and there are some cine lenses which are quite heavy).  Though you can lessen the strain on the E-mount by using a lens support system on the 15mm rails.

 

I was put off by the prices of the C300 and C500, though they are good cameras and Canon has lowered the price since the time I was thinking about which video camera to buy.

 

Red cameras seem to require the use of their "proprietary" SSD media.

 

In terms of dynamic range and low light adaptability the Ursa Mini 4K might be the weakest of the cameras.  Also all the Ursa and the Ursa Minis only have a max ISO rating of 800 I think.  Though a proper cinematographer will know the importance of using lights and not relying solely on the lighting of the environment.

 

All the cameras are capable of recording RAW, in one way or another.  The FS7 for example requires the use of an extension unit that mounts onto the back of the camera and an external recording device capable of RAW.  Other cameras might require the use of just an external recording device like an Odyssey 7Q via the HDMI or SDI out ports.

 

How big are you into things like color grading?  One thing I will warn you about each camera, even if you take all the cameras put them side by side and manually set the WB, ISO, shutter, frame rate, etc. to be the same and record the same scene.  Out of the camera footage will be slightly different with each one.  Between the Ursa and the Sony for example, there is a difference in how the skin tones look for straight out of the camera color.  This is due to how Black Magic and Sony each have different color sciences or at least views on how their sensors are tweaked for the image.  Of course, given enough patience in post processing, you can make them match.

 

And it can be worse if you set them up to utilize each camera's maximum dynamic range.  As you can see a hint of what I am talking about in this video here.  For example, a lot of people say that the FS7 has a slight magenta cast and that skin tones have a plastic look. I've used it in different types of lighting conditions and in some those issues are difficult to see and in other lighting conditions they stand out a lot.  I've also heard that the Ursa cameras have a slight greenish cast, while Canons seems to be leaning a bit towards the warm tones.  There's no single perfect camera, so you will have to develop understanding of how each camera behaves and work with it.

 

This is exactly the kind of comment I am looking for.  It's not easy choosing a camera and I don't want to regret my decision later.  I know I have to consider the cost of the camera body and the extra accessories.

 

How is the FS7 working out for you?

 

I think the ability to record RAW would be nice, especially for  music videos. The Ursa Mini 4.6K is the one I am most interested in right now but the availability, or lack of, and issues that people seem to be having is making me hesitate.

 

Yes I saw on the Black Magic forum how people were comparing the FS7 to the Ursa colors and motion cadence.

[ALwin]

6 hours ago, geomi neun babo said:

snip

The FS7 is a good camera and fits my needs almost perfectly.

 

One thing I forgot to mention, a cinematic camera like the ones you are looking at will give you a lot more options for creativity over DSLRs that you're used to.  Like in the areas of over and under cranking the frame rate to achieve slow motion or fast motion.  The FS7 can record up to 4K 60 frames/second or FHD 180 frames/second and go down to as slow as 1 frame per second for any resolution.  It also comes with timelapse recording mode.  I'm sure the C300, C500 and the Raven might have similar capabilities for cranking, however with the Ursa Mini, I don't recall seeing an option for under cranking and as for over cranking you can only go up to 120 frames/second in center scan mode.  The FS7 does 180 frames/second in full sensor scan mode.

 

For me, I currently don't see a need for RAW and if I needed the expanded capability to seriously color grade the XAVC-I footage I can transcode to ProRes and work in DaVinci Resolve.

 

@Dredgy probably knows more about the Ursa cameras than I do, as he actually owns one while I only did research on them and tested a few rental models.

Though as you can see in his tech review videos, which he filmed using the big Ursa, there always seems to be a bit of color casting.  I am not sure if it's direct from the camera color or his color grading.

 

 

[Dredgy]

7 hours ago, ALwin said:

 

Though as you can see in his tech review videos, which he filmed using the big Ursa, there always seems to be a bit of color casting.  I am not sure if it's direct from the camera color or his color grading.

 

 

The camera (URSA 4K) has a green colour cast. I never thought much of it since my walls are painted green and there's a green screen in the studio reflecting light. As a consequence, I never adjusted the tint until the Micro Studio Camera review, which I may have overdone towards the magenta. I've also had issues with my computer lately so been shooting in lower quality, less gradeable footage. I don't really notice it though. The 4.6K sensor apparently swings more to the magenta side.

 

I shot a beer review pilot which is going for a less polished look.

 

I'll post ungraded frames when I get home to help you make a choice.

[geomi neun babo]

5 hours ago, Dredgy said:

 

The camera (URSA 4K) has a green colour cast. I never thought much of it since my walls are painted green and there's a green screen in the studio reflecting light. As a consequence, I never adjusted the tint until the Micro Studio Camera review, which I may have overdone towards the magenta. I've also had issues with my computer lately so been shooting in lower quality, less gradeable footage. I don't really notice it though. The 4.6K sensor apparently swings more to the magenta side.

 

I shot a beer review pilot which is going for a less polished look.

 

I'll post ungraded frames when I get home to help you make a choice.

Thanks, I look forward to seeing it.  The 4.6K Ursa Mini seems the most ideal camera for me, but stocks are nonexistent.

 

Any opinions about the Canon cameras or the Red Raven?

[geomi neun babo]

13 hours ago, ALwin said:

One thing I forgot to mention, a cinematic camera like the ones you are looking at will give you a lot more options for creativity over DSLRs that you're used to.  Like in the areas of over and under cranking the frame rate to achieve slow motion or fast motion.  The FS7 can record up to 4K 60 frames/second or FHD 180 frames/second and go down to as slow as 1 frame per second for any resolution.  It also comes with timelapse recording mode.  I'm sure the C300, C500 and the Raven might have similar capabilities for cranking, however with the Ursa Mini, I don't recall seeing an option for under cranking and as for over cranking you can only go up to 120 frames/second in center scan mode.  The FS7 does 180 frames/second in full sensor scan mode.

I realized this may be one of the reasons why clients are asking for video cameras instead of DSLRs.  With my 5D's there is no way I can properly shoot slow motion footage.

[ALwin]

43 minutes ago, geomi neun babo said:

Any opinions about the Canon cameras or the Red Raven?

With the Canon C300 and C500, there is a C300 mark II and it may be that in the near future Canon will release a C500 mark II.

[ALwin]

Just noticed this video today, have you seen it?

 

[geomi neun babo]

11 hours ago, ALwin said:

Just noticed this video today, have you seen it?

 

Thanks for this I haven't seen this review yet.

[geomi neun babo]

Thanks for your input everyone, in the end I decided to buy the Canon C300 mark II, with the Zacuto Rig and a SmallHD 502 sidefinder kit.  The camera and the 502 monitor should be delivered within the next few days.  I have a job lined up the following week.

 

https://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_c300_mark_ii_4k_video_camera&sourceRef=int%3Asuggest&userInput=Canon C300

[ALwin]

4 minutes ago, geomi neun babo said:

Thanks for your input everyone, in the end I decided to buy the Canon C300 mark II, with the Zacuto Rig and a SmallHD 502 sidefinder kit.  The camera and the 502 monitor should be delivered within the next few days.  I have a job lined up the following week.

 

https://cvp.com/index.php?t=product/canon_c300_mark_ii_4k_video_camera&sourceRef=int%3Asuggest&userInput=Canon C300

Welcome to the big league!  It's a great camera.  If I had some extra budget to spare last year, I might have really considered it myself.  Take the time to get to know the camera, it's going to be totally different from working with a DSLR.

 

And footage looks great.  Watching on my 5K monitor.

 

[geomi neun babo]

1 minute ago, ALwin said:

Welcome to the big league!  It's a great camera.  If I had some extra budget to spare last year, I might have really considered it myself.  Take the time to get to know the camera, it's going to be totally different from working with a DSLR.

 

And footage looks great.  Watching on my 5K monitor.

 

I was convinced to buy it after meeting someone who owned one.  She'll be showing me how to get the camera setup once mine arrives.

[ALwin]

On 8/15/2016 at 4:14 AM, Dredgy said:

The 4.6K sensor apparently swings more to the magenta side.

Just occurred to me to ask, does the 4.6K sensor suffer from the black hole sun effect?

 

@geomi neun babo there is one thing I just checked about the C300 mk II, it doesn't shoot 4K 60fps.  Will that be a concern for you?

[geomi neun babo]

9 minutes ago, ALwin said:

Just occurred to me to ask, does the 4.6K sensor suffer from the black hole sun effect?

 

@geomi neun babo there is one thing I just checked about the C300 mk II, it doesn't shoot 4K 60fps.  Will that be a concern for you?

Oh shit, it doesn't?  I didn't check either.  I thought it did and was happy it would be natively compatible with my Canon lenses.  Does the FS7 record 4K60p?  I'll have to call CVP first thing tomorrow to cancel and change my order then.

[ALwin]

6 minutes ago, geomi neun babo said:

Oh shit, it doesn't?  I didn't check either.  I thought it did and was happy it would be natively compatible with my Canon lenses.  Does the FS7 record 4K60p?  I'll have to call CVP first thing tomorrow to cancel and change my order then.

Yes the FS7 records 4K60p, and it does slow motion 180fps recording with a full sensor scan.  Not cropped sensor. So if these are essential to you, you need to change your order.  And you can watch Doug Jensen's FS7 guide videos.

https://vimeo.com/118816281

 

[geomi neun babo]

2 hours ago, ALwin said:

Yes the FS7 records 4K60p, and it does slow motion 180fps recording with a full sensor scan.  Not cropped sensor. So if these are essential to you, you need to change your order.  And you can watch Doug Jensen's FS7 guide videos.

https://vimeo.com/118816281

 

CVP doesn't have the FS7 in stock, it will take a few weeks.  The Red Raven is in pre-order status, so it's not in stock either.  Ursa's are not in stock either.

 

Tomorrow I will change my order to the FS7, which will save me from having to buy the 502 sidewinder kit since the camera comes with a viewfinder.  I will get the Shape camera rig, heard good stuff about them, or should I get the Zacuto rig?  

 

How are the Metabones adapters?

 

In the meantime I'll rent some cameras as necessary from HireACamera.com

[ALwin]

3 hours ago, geomi neun babo said:

CVP doesn't have the FS7 in stock, it will take a few weeks.  The Red Raven is in pre-order status, so it's not in stock either.  Ursa's are not in stock either.

 

Tomorrow I will change my order to the FS7, which will save me from having to buy the 502 sidewinder kit since the camera comes with a viewfinder.  I will get the Shape camera rig, heard good stuff about them, or should I get the Zacuto rig?  

 

How are the Metabones adapters?

 

In the meantime I'll rent some cameras as necessary from HireACamera.com

Well renting is a good way to get to experience using different cameras.

 

By the way, here is the link to the FS7 users group on FB.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SonyFS7/

[geomi neun babo]

12 hours ago, ALwin said:

Well renting is a good way to get to experience using different cameras.

 

By the way, here is the link to the FS7 users group on FB.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/SonyFS7/

Thanks ALwin for all your help.  I managed to get my order changed with CVP.  I will join that group and will buy the FS7 guide by Doug Jensen.  Once the camera arrives I may call upon you for some advice on using the camera, if that's all right with you?

[geomi neun babo]

Rented a FS7 from HireACamera, it arrived last Friday and have been learning how to use it.  I will use it for a shoot this week.

 

My order from CVP is on the way.

 

[ALwin]

11 hours ago, geomi neun babo said:

snip

So how do you feel using such a camera compared to using DSLRs?