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DXVK & Vulkan on Linux

I'm planning to game on Linux using Lutris and DXVK. From my knowledge AMD graphics cards perform significantly better with the Vulkan API than Nvidia's cards, which is integrated with Lutris along with Wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but DXVK stands for Direct X to Vulkan and also AMD has a better history with graphics drivers on Linux.

 

How well do AMD cards play with Lutris, the Vulkan API and supported games on Linux?

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ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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12 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Have you heard of Proton?

Yeah. Thought the game I'm looking to play (Beamng.drive) is "borked" on Proton. A couple comments note how they can get it working with Lutris and DXVK. So I thought I'd try that.

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6 minutes ago, TheGermanEngie said:

Yeah. Thought the game I'm looking to play (Beamng.drive) is "borked" on Proton. A couple comments note how they can get it working with Lutris and DXVK. So I thought I'd try that.

Yeah you'd be right. Knowing Beam.NG and how well things like DXVK work what card do you have?

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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AMD’s graphics cards do not perform better with Vulkan than Nvidia’s graphics cards. The reverse is true where a computationally equivalent (or nearly equivalent) Nvidia graphics card will outperform an AMD graphics card when Vulkan is used.

 

The AMD graphics drivers for Direct3D and OpenGL are so terrible that their graphics cards perform far better when Vulkan is used than when Direct3D or OpenGL are used. Nvidia’s graphics drivers are well written for all APIs, so switching to Vulkan does not help them very much unless things are CPU bound. This is what you see in reviews.

 

As far the Doom benchmarks, the actual numbers have Nvidia outperforming AMD. Here is an example:

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-vega-64,5173-8.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_RX_Vega_series

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_10_series#GeForce_10_(10xx)_series

 

If you look up the theoretical peak gflops numbers, the Vega 64 is able to do up to 12665 single precision GFLOPS while the GeForce GTX 1080 Ti is able to do up to 11340 single precision GFLOPS, but the GeForce 1080 Ti is outperforming it in Doom. On the other hand, the GeForce GTX 1080 can do only 8873 single precision GFLOPS and it is being beaten by Vega 64 when Vulkan is used.

 

Also, DXVK will work on Windows as well as Wine. It is really just Direct3D 10/11 to Vulkan. Some people have reported better performance with DXVK on AMD hardware on Windows than with the Microsoft implementation, but they never told me which driver versions or games.

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1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

Yeah you'd be right. Knowing Beam.NG and how well things like DXVK work what card do you have?

Well currently using a low profile 5000 series card but planning to get an RX 470. Literally only to display an image until I get the gaming card.

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14 hours ago, TheGermanEngie said:

I'm planning to game on Linux using Lutris and DXVK. From my knowledge AMD graphics cards perform significantly better with the Vulkan API than Nvidia's cards, which is integrated with Lutris along with Wine. Correct me if I'm wrong but DXVK stands for Direct X to Vulkan and also AMD has a better history with graphics drivers on Linux.

 

How well do AMD cards play with Lutris, the Vulkan API and supported games on Linux?

Heck no. AMD drivers used to suck, bad. But ever since they pass the responsibility of driver development to the open source community, it's driver has improved great deal. Their crards pretty much run circles around nvida in everything vulkan based. In openGL however, things varies from games to games. Sometimes newest Vega cards pull ahead by hilarious fps compare to 1070/1080, other times it would struggle against the 1060.

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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14 hours ago, ryao said:

AMD’s graphics cards do not perform better with Vulkan than Nvidia’s graphics cards. The reverse is true where a computationally equivalent (or nearly equivalent) Nvidia graphics card will outperform an AMD graphics card when Vulkan is used.

 

The AMD graphics drivers for Direct3D and OpenGL are so terrible that their graphics cards perform far better when Vulkan is used than when Direct3D or OpenGL are used. Nvidia’s graphics drivers are well written for all APIs, so switching to Vulkan does not help them very much unless things are CPU bound. This is what you see in reviews.

 

As far the Doom benchmarks, the actual numbers have Nvidia outperforming AMD. Here is an example:

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-vega-64,5173-8.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_RX_Vega_series

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_10_series#GeForce_10_(10xx)_series

 

If you look up the theoretical peak gflops numbers, the Vega 64 is able to do up to 12665 single precision GFLOPS while the GeForce GTX 1080 Ti is able to do up to 11340 single precision GFLOPS, but the GeForce 1080 Ti is outperforming it in Doom. On the other hand, the GeForce GTX 1080 can do only 8873 single precision GFLOPS and it is being beaten by Vega 64 when Vulkan is used.

 

Also, DXVK will work on Windows as well as Wine. It is really just Direct3D 10/11 to Vulkan. Some people have reported better performance with DXVK on AMD hardware on Windows than with the Microsoft implementation, but they never told me which driver versions or games.

You forgot that many vulkan based titles are AMD optimized. AMD cards on these really shrine, even when running under wine in Linux. 

 

GFLOPS doesn't mean much just like more cache or higher gigahertz in cpu doesnt mean a chip runs faster. It is just one of the metric. On Windows, we all know that rx Vega is on the performance level of 1080 and is totally outclass by the 1080ti. It is not a matter of drivers and software, 1080ti is simply hardwarely better for games. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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26 minutes ago, wasab said:

You forgot that many vulkan based titles are AMD optimized. AMD cards on these really shrine, even when running under wine in Linux. 

 

GFLOPS doesn't mean much just like more cache or higher gigahertz in cpu doesnt mean a chip runs faster. It is just one of the metric. On Windows, we all know that rx Vega is on the performance level of 1080 and is totally outclass by the 1080ti. It is not a matter of drivers and software, 1080ti is simply hardwarely better for games. 

How would you “AMD optimize” Vulkan software? The most that I know that you can do is avoid exceeding their resource limits and minimize branching in shaders. That should generically benefit Nvidia too. What else is there to do?

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5 hours ago, ryao said:

How would you “AMD optimize” Vulkan software? The most that I know that you can do is avoid exceeding their resource limits and minimize branching in shaders. That should generically benefit Nvidia too. What else is there to do?

Quote from AMD's gaming community forums -

 

"Vulkan inherits these capabilities from AMD's Mantle graphics API. Mantle was the first of its kind: the first low-overhead PC graphics API, the first to grant unprecedented access to PC GPU resources, and the first to offer absolute control of those resources. Most importantly for gamers, Mantle got the industry thinking about how much additional GPU performance could be unlocked with a low-overhead graphics API.

 

Though the Mantle API was tailored for AMD hardware, Mantle was also designed with just enough hardware abstraction to accommodate almost any modern graphics architecture.  That architecture proved useful when we contributed the source code and API specification of Mantle to serve as the foundation of Vulkan in May of 2015.

 

Here is a youtube video explains more thoroughly the benefit of AMD's hardware in DX12 applications. Watch from 4:08 onwards.

And some more miscellaneous info on the Polaris and Vega architectures can be found here and here.

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5 hours ago, wasab said:

You forgot that many vulkan based titles are AMD optimized. AMD cards on these really shrine, even when running under wine in Linux. 

Right you are.

 

"Though the Mantle API was tailored for AMD hardware, Mantle was also designed with just enough hardware abstraction to accommodate almost any modern graphics architecture. That architecture proved useful when we contributed the source code and API specification of Mantle to serve as the foundation of Vulkan in May of 2015."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)

 

 

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Par of the reason AMD was faster in Linux titles recently is because Nvidia didn't have vulkan implemented until driver 396, they've had one update since, to driver 410.

 

Nvidia still curb stomps AMD in openGL, they're pretty comparable in vulkan

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3 hours ago, Terryv said:

Par of the reason AMD was faster in Linux titles recently is because Nvidia didn't have vulkan implemented until driver 396, they've had one update since, to driver 410.

 

Nvidia still curb stomps AMD in openGL, they're pretty comparable in vulkan

Yeah, like good luck finding 4.10 Nvidia driver on majority of the Linux repos. Last time I checked, the most up to date ones are like driver 396.xxx something. For AMD, driver is open source and in the kernel so all you gotta do is install the newest bleeding edge kernel. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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7 hours ago, wasab said:

Yeah, like good luck finding 4.10 Nvidia driver on majority of the Linux repos. Last time I checked, the most up to date ones are like driver 396.xxx something. For AMD, driver is open source and in the kernel so all you gotta do is install the newest bleeding edge kernel. 

I'd argue that 396 is better than 410, since 410 lost a few features (I don't remember what they are). Those features don't appear to have affected the DXVK implementation.

 

I'm on Manjaro, so I get all the latest stuff pretty quick. I do wish Nvidia would open source their driver, there's a lot to gain for users if they did.

System specs:

4790k

GTX 1050

16GB DDR3

Samsung evo SSD

a few HDD's

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14 hours ago, TheGermanEngie said:

Quote from AMD's gaming community forums -

 

"Vulkan inherits these capabilities from AMD's Mantle graphics API. Mantle was the first of its kind: the first low-overhead PC graphics API, the first to grant unprecedented access to PC GPU resources, and the first to offer absolute control of those resources. Most importantly for gamers, Mantle got the industry thinking about how much additional GPU performance could be unlocked with a low-overhead graphics API.

 

Though the Mantle API was tailored for AMD hardware, Mantle was also designed with just enough hardware abstraction to accommodate almost any modern graphics architecture.  That architecture proved useful when we contributed the source code and API specification of Mantle to serve as the foundation of Vulkan in May of 2015.

 

Here is a youtube video explains more thoroughly the benefit of AMD's hardware in DX12 applications. Watch from 4:08 onwards.

And some more miscellaneous info on the Polaris and Vega architectures can be found here and here.

I do not see how this answers my question. If you think that Vulkan being derived from a generic API that AMD made gives them a magical edge, you are extremely mistaken.

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3 hours ago, ryao said:

I do not see how this answers my question. If you think that Vulkan being derived from a generic API that AMD made gives them a magical edge, you are extremely mistaken.

Oh boy, guess you never see what choices of API and driver has an affect on performance. 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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37 minutes ago, wasab said:

Oh boy, guess you never see what choices of API and driver has an affect on performance. 

And those aren't free lunches, it's up to the application developer to understand how everything below them works in order to squeeze the most performance out of their application.

 

For example, you need to feed GCN 64 units of work per scheduled task, otherwise there's execution bubbles. NVIDIA GPUs since Maxwell (I think Kepler as well) only need 32. If you plan for NVIDIA but not AMD, you're going to starve AMD despite using an API based on whatever work they did.

 

EDIT: If you want proof of the above statement, I quote from page 4 of http://amd-dev.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/GCNPerformanceTweets.pdf

Quote
Notes: 64 is the wavefront size on current GCN-based GPUs. Using a threadgroup declaration size that’s not a multiple of 64 will therefore result in wasted processing.

 

On the NVIDIA side:

Quote

Threadblock size choices in the range of 128 - 512 are less likely to run into the aforementioned issues. Usually there are not huge differences in performance for a code between, say, a choice of 128 threads per block and a choice of 256 threads per block. Due to warp granularity, it's always recommended to choose a size that is a multiple of 32, and powers-of-2 threadblock size choices are also pretty common, but not necessary.

 

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1 hour ago, M.Yurizaki said:

And those aren't free lunches, it's up to the application developer to understand how everything below them works in order to squeeze the most performance out of their application.

 

For example, you need to feed GCN 64 units of work per scheduled task, otherwise there's execution bubbles. NVIDIA GPUs since Maxwell (I think Kepler as well) only need 32. If you plan for NVIDIA but not AMD, you're going to starve AMD despite using an API based on whatever work they did.

 

EDIT: If you want proof of the above statement, I quote from page 4 of http://amd-dev.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/GCNPerformanceTweets.pdf

 

On the NVIDIA side:

 

They are low level APIs which means the developers are forced to code every tiny and weeny details without performance erroding abstraction lever running on top of it.  No free lunch but no dependence on certain API features that will harm framerates 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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4 hours ago, wasab said:

Oh boy, guess you never see what choices of API and driver has an affect on performance. 

From a programmer perspective, I do not see how a vendor neutral API would favor one vendor over another. For what it is worth, Nvidia participated in the development of Vulkan too. AMD only gets a big boost from Vulkan because Vulkan eliminated much of the driver code that they had trouble implementing in a performant way. Nvidia did it well, so they already had been enjoying much of the performance improvement Vulkan brought to AMD hardware without Vulkan. Nvidia’s drivers are superior to AMD’s drivers in multiple areas, including shader compiler optimizations, API support and platform support.

 

I asked a contact of mine about the idea that Doom favors AMD hardware. He told me that the original Doom vulkan code used an AMD-specific Vulkan extension that implemented subgroup operations to avoid memory accesses on AMD hardware. Vulkan 1.1 standardized that and Doom was updated to use Vulkan 1.1, so the API usage ought to be the same on both AMD and Nvidia hardware. My contact could not name anything that they are doing now that would favor AMD hardware, although he did claim that idTech 6 is traditionally very biased toward AMD (due to the use of AMD specific extensions).

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2 hours ago, M.Yurizaki said:

And those aren't free lunches, it's up to the application developer to understand how everything below them works in order to squeeze the most performance out of their application.

 

For example, you need to feed GCN 64 units of work per scheduled task, otherwise there's execution bubbles. NVIDIA GPUs since Maxwell (I think Kepler as well) only need 32. If you plan for NVIDIA but not AMD, you're going to starve AMD despite using an API based on whatever work they did.

 

EDIT: If you want proof of the above statement, I quote from page 4 of http://amd-dev.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wordpress/media/2013/05/GCNPerformanceTweets.pdf

 

On the NVIDIA side:

 

The smaller waves actually gives Nvidia an edge when branches diverge. Anyway, code is supposed to be written to handle arbitrary sized wave fronts that are multiples of 32 by powers of 2.

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3 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Like what?

Why don't you read the vulkan technical documentation and find out? 

Sudo make me a sandwich 

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