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How to fix bufferbloat?

Guest
By Guest
in Networking
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So i have a 75mbps down and 10mbps up internet connection and i constantly have ping problems and doing some research found out that its something related to bufferbloat. So is there a router out there that can beat bufferbloat i tried using openwrt and using sqm but it is limiting my speeds a bit and even then the bufferbloat still exists.

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22 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Has nothing to do with buffer bloat. 

 

Do you have DSL or cable? 

i checked dslreports and it is to do with bufferbloat, and im on cable.

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Last time I looked into it bufferbloat is made up and they are just trying to sell you a router that fixes the "problem"

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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46 minutes ago, Bitconn3ct said:

i checked dslreports and it is to do with bufferbloat, and im on cable.

Bufferbloat has nothing to do with modems/routers. Thats all on the ISP side where the access switches buffer congested networks. Nothing you do will fix it. 

 

32 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Last time I looked into it bufferbloat is made up and they are just trying to sell you a router that fixes the "problem"

Its all a marketing gimmick with QoS. If the buffer is too large no matter the priority  its going to cause jitter

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9 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Bufferbloat has nothing to do with modems/routers. Thats all on the ISP side where the access switches buffer congested networks. Nothing you do will fix it. 

 

Its all a marketing gimmick with QoS. If the buffer is too large no matter the priority  its going to cause jitter

There's actually a guide for pfSense that makes the dslReports test happy, just ends up using a traffic shaper. I've never noticed any difference before/after and don't understand why it would be weighted when determing the "quality" of your internet however. Low latency + advertised speeds = quality imo.

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10 hours ago, Mikensan said:

There's actually a guide for pfSense that makes the dslReports test happy, just ends up using a traffic shaper. I've never noticed any difference before/after and don't understand why it would be weighted when determing the "quality" of your internet however. Low latency + advertised speeds = quality imo.

 

20 hours ago, mynameisjuan said:

Bufferbloat has nothing to do with modems/routers. Thats all on the ISP side where the access switches buffer congested networks. Nothing you do will fix it. 

 

Its all a marketing gimmick with QoS. If the buffer is too large no matter the priority  its going to cause jitter

 

21 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Last time I looked into it bufferbloat is made up and they are just trying to sell you a router that fixes the "problem"

So then how do i really fix my high ping spikes. Because it was fine before i tried to install open-wrt so i could use SQM but then that ended up not working well so i reinstalled the factory firmware by power resetting the router. Btw the router is a linksys WRT-1900ACS. I honestly don't know what it almost seems as if this router is the cause behind the ping. I am also considering to buy a Edgerouter X.

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Posted
On 11/14/2018 at 7:39 PM, Bitconn3ct said:

 

 

So then how do i really fix my high ping spikes. Because it was fine before i tried to install open-wrt so i could use SQM but then that ended up not working well so i reinstalled the factory firmware by power resetting the router. Btw the router is a linksys WRT-1900ACS. I honestly don't know what it almost seems as if this router is the cause behind the ping. I am also considering to buy a Edgerouter X.

If you're using wireless you're almost going to have some latency issues, though I've never looked to see what you should expect. You are at the mercy of half-duplex which can cause some issues too.

 

If you're experiencing issues over wired: what's your latency to your ISP's gateway?

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On 11/14/2018 at 4:03 AM, mynameisjuan said:

Bufferbloat has nothing to do with modems/routers. Thats all on the ISP side where the access switches buffer congested networks. Nothing you do will fix it. 

 

Its all a marketing gimmick with QoS. If the buffer is too large no matter the priority  its going to cause jitter

Not true, your router causes bufferbloat on the upstream, your ISP causes bufferbloat on the downstream.

Due to this while your router can only really control the upload queue, it can impact download too due to forcing TCP/IP to slow down thus reducing the buffered traffic at the ISP side.

 

I put an OpenWRT router on my friends Cable connection and it made a dramatic difference to bufferbloat.  As it did on my VDSL line too when I set QoS on pfSense to prevent the upload queue from filling up.

 

Its not perfect, but to suggest its fabricated is plain untrue.

 

On UK DSL for example the telco (BT) set a speed limit on their equipment to slightly lower than your link speed to reduce downstream bufferbloat.  As the last thing they want is more traffic going down their backhaul than can actually be delivered.  As such, limiting the upload in your router can be very effective.

 

The important factor here though is that bufferbloat ONLY happens if you are maxing either your upload or download, or both.  If you are gaming with an otherwise idle connection, the problem you are having is NOT bufferbloat.

Router:  Intel N100 (pfSense) WiFi6: Zyxel NWA210AX (1.7Gbit peak at 160Mhz)
WiFi5: Ubiquiti NanoHD OpenWRT (~500Mbit at 80Mhz) Switches: Netgear MS510TXUP, MS510TXPP, GS110EMX
ISPs: Zen Full Fibre 900 (~930Mbit down, 115Mbit up) + Three 5G (~800Mbit down, 115Mbit up)
Upgrading Laptop/Desktop CNVIo WiFi 5 cards to PCIe WiFi6e/7

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37 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

Not true, your router causes bufferbloat on the upstream, your ISP causes bufferbloat on the downstream.

Due to this while your router can only really control the upload queue, it can impact download too due to forcing TCP/IP to slow down thus reducing the buffered traffic at the ISP side.

 

I put an OpenWRT router on my friends Cable connection and it made a dramatic difference to bufferbloat.  As it did on my VDSL line too when I set QoS on pfSense to prevent the upload queue from filling up.

 

Its not perfect, but to suggest its fabricated is plain untrue.

 

On UK DSL for example the telco (BT) set a speed limit on their equipment to slightly lower than your link speed to reduce downstream bufferbloat.  As the last thing they want is more traffic going down their backhaul than can actually be delivered.  As such, limiting the upload in your router can be very effective.

 

The important factor here though is that bufferbloat ONLY happens if you are maxing either your upload or download, or both.  If you are gaming with an otherwise idle connection, the problem you are having is NOT bufferbloat.

That is still all on the ISPs end. 

 

All buffer bloat is is when a output queue gets maxed out on a switch or router. This is all upstream on customers. Buying a router to help with bufferbloat is nothing but smoke and mirrors. 

 

Nothing a home router can do can prevent it. Sure, you can slow down TCP but that just help maintain connection. Speeds and latency are still going to be shit. 

 

Take for example one of our backbones. We have about 700 customers off a DSL ring where the equipment is limited to 1gig. Thats it, no LAG, no bonding, no more. Finally with be replaced by the end of the month, but the problem is 1.6gigs of traffic is trying to get through at peak hours in the mean time. The SWITCH is suffering from full buffers, not the customers.

 

No router with any sort of QoS feature will help. Sure you connection will still be active but its going to be shit service. Say even it was just cresting 1gig, the amount assistance you will get will be unnoticeable. Nothing you do will affect latency. 

 

Sure some UK telcos under subscribe their lines but that definitely is not the case in the US and other parts of the world. The ideal is 6:1 for downstream compared to the total bandwidth an access device can utilize and many ISPs follow this rule. Access platforms are just starting to release 40gig access devices so soon over subscribing will be gone. But until then its your ISPs responsibility to maintain their devices and upgrade when necessary. 

 

Bufferbloat is not a thing a router can fix. 

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No its not all on the ISPs end, bufferbloat mitigation has to happen (to work fully) at BOTH SIDES.  But by artificially limiting TCP traffic at the router, it can trigger congestion control earlier than relying on each client realising there is a bottleneck, mitigating the problem.

 

Your router controls the upload rate, if you throttle your upload traffic to below the upload rate of your broadband connection with sufficiently low buffers (or use QoS to give latency sensitive traffic top priority so it always jumps the queue) it reduces the latency on your upload traffic as it keeps flowing.  Generally this means throttling TCP traffic so you always have enough spare capacity for UDP to pass through rather than getting dropped.

 

If you DON'T limit the upload then it buffers as your router typically can process it quicker than your actual upload speed.  Without QoS that means packets get dropped and with UDP gaming traffic that means lag.

 

I'm not aware of any UK telcos that undersubscribe, it used to be 20:1 for business and 50:1 for residential on ADSL.  So when contention kicks in you are still SOL, but if its just your own connection contending with your line rate, they mitigate it by throttling the traffic to slightly below your line rate.  But again, that only fixes one direction, to reduce game latency you have to throttle both directions and your router needs to control the upload.

 

Although I know on VDSL in the UK when they used to use a dedicated modem rather than a combined router/modem, the telco hard-coded QoS in the modem to keep the upload rate 1Mbit below the line rate.

 

I know it works because when I had 4Mbit ADSL and first adopted QoS I was able to watch Xbox Video streaming without causing any noticable impact to the rest of the network performance.  Before that everything would grind to a crawl.  So suggesting that QoS "doesn't work" is absolutely bonkers!

 

So to summarise, yes in SOME cases it CAN be your ISP that is contended, but most often than not its simply that your router is not being efficient in how it decides to deal with your traffic.

 

https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Bufferbloat/

 

You can easily see it at work, for example I download torrents regularly and never notice any impact on my network performance.  Before using QoS, browsing was horrific and my ping would be +100ms if just my download was being maxed out.

 

As for the OP, SQM is resource intensive so it could be your router just wasn't up to it.  Or it could be your ISP is overloaded, in which case the other poster is correct in that there is nothing you can do to fix that.  In my friends case it did still improve his connection even though his speed maxed out the routers CPU causing it to be slightly lower than it should be.

Router:  Intel N100 (pfSense) WiFi6: Zyxel NWA210AX (1.7Gbit peak at 160Mhz)
WiFi5: Ubiquiti NanoHD OpenWRT (~500Mbit at 80Mhz) Switches: Netgear MS510TXUP, MS510TXPP, GS110EMX
ISPs: Zen Full Fibre 900 (~930Mbit down, 115Mbit up) + Three 5G (~800Mbit down, 115Mbit up)
Upgrading Laptop/Desktop CNVIo WiFi 5 cards to PCIe WiFi6e/7

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14 minutes ago, Alex Atkin UK said:

No its not all on the ISPs end, bufferbloat mitigation has to happen (to work fully) at BOTH SIDES.  But by artificially limiting TCP traffic at the router, it can trigger congestion control earlier than relying on each client realising there is a bottleneck, mitigating the problem.

 

Your router controls the upload rate, if you throttle your upload traffic to below the upload rate of your broadband connection with sufficiently low buffers (or use QoS to give latency sensitive traffic top priority so it always jumps the queue) it reduces the latency on your upload traffic as it keeps flowing.  Generally this means throttling TCP traffic so you always have enough spare capacity for UDP to pass through rather than getting dropped.

 

If you DON'T limit the upload then it buffers as your router typically can process it quicker than your actual upload speed.  Without QoS that means packets get dropped and with UDP gaming traffic that means lag.

 

I'm not aware of any UK telcos that undersubscribe, it used to be 20:1 for business and 50:1 for residential on ADSL.  So when contention kicks in you are still SOL, but if its just your own connection contending with your line rate, they mitigate it by throttling the traffic to slightly below your line rate.  But again, that only fixes one direction, to reduce game latency you have to throttle both directions and your router controls upload.

 

Although I know on VDSL in the UK when they used to use a dedicated modem rather than a combined router/modem, the telco hard-coded QoS in the modem to keep the upload rate 1Mbit below the line rate.

So are you only mentioning this in examples when their upload is saturated? If so we are talking two different scenarios here 

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