Response to "Linux Gaming Finally Doesn't Suck" video

[AlTech]

2 hours ago, Giganthrax said:

What I get from this discussion is that gaming on Linux takes so much effort and extra know-how that even Linus who has multiple people helping him with the research and preparation still up making a bunch of mistakes.

No offence to Linus but he's not that smart. He happens to be a good salesman and employer. 

 

The rest of Linus's team aren't familiar with Linux and haven't shown interest in using it In the past and usually LTT videos contain mistakes anyways.

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, ZacoAttaco said:

I really enjoyed that video, The Linux Gamer was fair in his criticisms (probably could have been way tougher) but clearly Linus doesn't have much experience with Linux, so for someone like me, it puts us in a similar situation. 

 

While I wish the content was a little more accurate, this video is for Linux newbies and not those experienced with it and so it at least encourages me to give it a try, I already have Ubuntu running on a VM so I plan to spend more time with it now. I'll probably end up installing Steam and trying some games out. Thanks for sharing @MEC-777.

I think the problem here is that Linus is making videos about subjects he has no understanding of. This is becoming an increasingly large issue because his videos truly are bad when it comes to actual information. I'd even say that some of his videos does more damage than good.

 

Even though the video is for the "Linux newbies", to me that's all the more reason that the information has to be spot on. The less educated a student is in a subject, the more knowledgeable the teacher has to be in order to make sure the students don't get imprinted with incorrect information.

Right now it's the blind Linus leading the blind viewers.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Giganthrax said:

What I get from this discussion is that gaming on Linux takes so much effort and extra know-how that even Linus who has multiple people helping him with the research and preparation still up making a bunch of mistakes.

 

Conclusion: stop trying to fit a square in a round hole, and just game on Windows 10 like the almighty intended. 

Honestly what did you expect for an OS which has 3% of the global desktop market share with software that does not even come pre-installed with PC's and does not have decent vendor support.

The fact it is working right now on 85% of hardware configuration is a miracle. The fact it can run games almost like Windows is another miracle. If more people are going to use Linux there will be probably better support and issues are going to be nothing more than having to partition an hard drive.
(Not really a miracle btw because hardware vendors except video cards one actually do an hard work because a lot of servers are based on linux) 

Anyway complaining about people that don't want to use Windows is just stupid.
Everyone can do what they want, they are not trying to fit a square in a round hole, there is Valve and serious companies behind the whole Steam Proton and linux project and the progresses in the last years are something really BIG but idk why people are still always complaining, for any single issue. 6 years ago you wouldn't even imagine something like that.

That could be really something in the future of Linux desktop. Just imagine if the market share grows to something like the 10 or 20% you could even wish to have Adobe support for their suite. Would probably perform better than Windows like it does in MacOS thanks to the better OpenCL support. And yes also CPU performance has always been better in Linux like in Blender so, well...

Anyway its funny because when Windows has issues, it's always an user error (lol I'm laughing while writing that) but when Linux has even a single and stupid issue for it's current 3% market share everyone will complain and say sh*t to Linux and even make fun of Linux users lol
You understand there is some fanboy-ism in there. Don't take me wrong, there are some Linux fanboysm worse than those people, but people need to see that for what it is.
Just imagine again if the market share grows.

Windows is losing their market share since 8 because they do what it is in THEIR interest, (the Mobile sh*t metro convergence) windows 7 was a perfect user experience, the background activity was not noticeable at all, was an improvement behind Vista, and what about that now?  Now they would not let you to use it because they will soon deprecate support and force you to upgrade to what they want users to do even if they don't like it. Despite the negative feedbacks, they made 10 but that is not enough.

People are tired about that, and a lot of people moved to MacOS, or other ones just upgraded to Windows 10 getting over it because they wouldn't like to use Apple devices (for obvious reasons) and I'm not blaming them not to use Linux because if you need your programs to work without any issues and I understand them.

But content creators or people who actually WORK need to have completely control over their system, MacOS lets you decide when to install updates, Windows 10 just makes it in the wrong way. They could just have upgraded Windows 7 instead to do a whole re-write of the entire experience.
Now they have fragmented system options, huge I/O and background activity, telemetry, automatic updates. They call that "Windows as a service" and it is so wrong and stupid for most of computer users. 

With all that TL;DR said, I'm just saying that Windows is not perfect, you shouldn't blame people for using other alternatives like Linux or MacOS for their purposes, there are some people but EVEN companies who are unhappy and because of that, they are working on other alternatives. And microsoft at this current state, does not seem to care about. 
On well the gaming side, windows patently tried to destroy OpenGL, and now they are also pushing their DX12 instead of just using vulkan. 

In my opinion (just my opinion) they could just destroy the Linux desktop for ever by making their OS open source (please don't laugh at that, microsoft actually has a lot of open source projects) so that hardware companies would work better by making better drivers, improve the kernel, so even every people on the world could improve their code and that would cost microsoft nothing.
Well, but in reality it will. They gain money by selling windows licences pre-installed on PC's. So, they can basically do what they want because people are still using windows anyway. Not because it is better. Oh, or maybe just make a Windows 7 like os but with all the 10 features (NOT DOWNGRADES) 

Imho you would just give linux a try if that fits your user case, especially if you don't play games (or at least if you play the ones that are supported) or like in your parents PC. Mine were happy. Because windows should be a choice only if you need specific programs. The stereotype where linux does not have programs is not a meme anymore. Wait no, just use what you want if you like Windows 10 so much with all its defects its your choice. But blaming other people because they don't like it is stupid.
 

21 hours ago, fpo said:

I’ll join you guys 2030 when I remember to make sure the WiFi Adapter I buy is linux compatible. 

Oh and anyway most of the time you don't need it, in 2018 almost all wifi adapters today are compatible. Even broadcom stopped shipping its shitty proprietary one as he was known to not support linux. Seems like people are keeping to make memes that had sense in 2005

[Settlerteo]

How can you even argue at an open source OS. The whole idea behind this , is that they provide you the tools so if you want to make something happen then make it happen(code it yourself). It is free and nobody owes you nothing. If it's not suitable for your work and you cannot develop on it to make it suitable for your work then it is not for you. Just deal with it. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Settlerteo said:

How can you even argue at an open source OS. The whole idea behind this , is that they provide you the tools so if you want to make something happen then make it happen(code it yourself). It is free and nobody owes you nothing. If it's not suitable for your work and you cannot develop on it to make it suitable for your work then it is not for you. Just deal with it. 

Yes that is another point. But imho distros like Ubuntu should take a look on the user friendliness more.

[Guest]

 

3 hours ago, Lukyp said:

Oh and anyway most of the time you don't need it, in 2018 almost all wifi adapters today are compatible. Even broadcom stopped shipping its shitty proprietary one as he was known to not support linux. Seems like people are keeping to make memes that had sense in 2005

Except for all the usb netgear ones I bought from best buy. Even the recent ones. 

[MEC-777]

7 hours ago, Giganthrax said:

What I get from this discussion is that gaming on Linux takes so much effort and extra know-how that even Linus who has multiple people helping him with the research and preparation still up making a bunch of mistakes.

 

Conclusion: stop trying to fit a square in a round hole, and just game on Windows 10 like the almighty intended. 

The thing is; it doesn't take so much effort to game on Linux. It really doesn't. And this is true so much more so than ever before. I would even argue it's easier to get steam installed on Linux (one simple terminal command) than on windows (have to go to the site, download the installer, etc.). I've been using Linux over the past 6-7 years - I've seen and experienced the progress. 

 

But see, here's the thing... (I'm addressing everyone now, not just you, Giganthrax):

 

LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS. It doesn't operate the same way under the hood. If you expect Linux to BE the same as windows and to use Linux the exact same way you use windows, you will probably not have too good of an experience. Is that the fault of Linux? No. You're simply unfamiliar with Linux. 

 

Like anything in life, if it's something you've grown up with and used all your life, then you know it well and it's familiar. It's EASY because you KNOW it. If there's something new and different that you don't know, it will seem not so easy because you simply DON'T KNOW it. (I'm not yelling btw, just trying to emphasize  ). 

 

The point I'm trying to get at here is: just because something is DIFFERENT does not mean it is HARDER or NOT AS GOOD. It's just simply that; different, and you simply don't know it (are unfamiliar with it). 

 

It's VERY clear and evident, Linus is very much a windows user and who ever wrote the script for this video is also very much a windows user in the fact that he said to go to the websites to download the installers for steam and the graphics drivers. That is the windows-mentality showing through. The reality for Linux is; there are other, better, safer and faster ways to do things in Linux. If you go into trying Linux with more of an open-mind and the understanding that Linux is not windows, and keep in mind that you can do things differently in Linux, then your initial user experience will most-likely be a more enjoyable one. 

 

A big part of it is a matter of perception and mindset. 

 

Also, just want to add; no, 2019 is not going to be "the year of the Linux desktop". Neither is 2020, if I am to be completely honest. The general public and businesses are still very much dependent and set in their ways on using windows. It will take a long time and many minds to be changed to see a significant shift in this. Proton is huge, though, and could be the catalyst for one of the biggest years yet for Linux.

[MEC-777]

28 minutes ago, fpo said:

 

Except for all the usb netgear ones I bought from best buy. Even the recent ones. 

I laughed at your first comment about wifi adapters because I've had those issues in Linux before (it even still hiccups on my laptop from time to time). Problems will always exist in any OS, including Mac and Windows. They just have different problems.  

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, MEC-777 said:

I laughed at your first comment about wifi adapters because I've had those issues in Linux before (it even still hiccups on my laptop from time to time). Problems will always exist in any OS, including Mac and Windows. They just have different problems.  

What chipset are they mounting? Every vendor I know, realtek, mediatek, Intel, atheros, ralink and latest broadcom have decent driver support in the kernel

never found an unsupported one in the last 5 years

[MEC-777]

22 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

What chipset are they mounting? Every vendor I know, realtek, mediatek, Intel, ateros, latest broadcom have decent driver support in the kernel

never found an unsupported one in the last 5 years

Most are supported. Especially the most common and popular ones. Certain less-common devices, however, still have some issues. On my laptop it's an Intel  dual-band AC 3165 chip. Every now and then it will randomly stop working and is a known issue for Ubuntu-based distros. There is probably a fix, but it doesn't happen often enough to bother me. 

 

When I used to run windows on this same laptop, I would run into a different problem where, again, randomly, it would just disconnect from the internet. Wifi was still working, it just showed as "no internet connection" and I would then have to manually set an IP to get it working again. As I mentioned; no OS is immune to odd issues.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

I laughed at your first comment about wifi adapters because I've had those issues in Linux before (it even still hiccups on my laptop from time to time). Problems will always exist in any OS, including Mac and Windows. They just have different problems.  

I heard I need an Aetheros chip wifi adapter or something. 
Mine is something else. 

[xXxAdamxXx]

Linux feels to me like Windows did back in the early XP era.

[MEC-777]

2 minutes ago, xXxAdamxXx said:

Linux feels to me like Windows did back in the early XP era.

Windows 10 feels to me like it's been copying things that Linux has been doing for years.  

 

Funny how we all perceive things differently. 

[Stefan Payne]

On 9/30/2018 at 8:44 PM, EPENEX said:

I'm sure 2019 will be the year of the Linux desktop, guys.

No.

The Linux guys say that every year.

 

There is much to do on the Linux front to make it viable for Desktop usage but it doesn't look like the Linux developers take too much effort to this segment either. But they don't need to. Its fine for Server and HPC where it only is a means to start the software you want to use.

 

There is no standardized way to install drivers, they need to be build against the Kernel. 

There is no easy way to kill a process and the UIs are far from Windows (because the Gnome development team had to imitate MacOSX instead of building on what they already had)...

[EPENEX]

11 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No.

The Linux guys say that every year.

 

There is much to do on the Linux front to make it viable for Desktop usage but it doesn't look like the Linux developers take too much effort to this segment either. But they don't need to. Its fine for Server and HPC where it only is a means to start the software you want to use.

 

There is no standardized way to install drivers, they need to be build against the Kernel. 

There is no easy way to kill a process and the UIs are far from Windows (because the Gnome development team had to imitate MacOSX instead of building on what they already had)...

You are wrong on so many levels, the standardized way to install drivers is through your distro's package manager, I can kill a process very easily- how I do it is open a terminal (super+enter) type "htop", use arrows to find process, press f9 and then enter. Wow that sure was hard, I am literally shaking right now with how hard that was. The UI is much better than Windows, you have things like the qt and kde frameworks that applications are built upon which are way more stable and themeable then windows. Windows is dying and GNU/Linux will take it over. I have been using GNU/Linux as my main OS for a few years now only needing to switch to Windows for things like Premiere Pro as it doesn't work in Wine yet, but once the Adobe Suite is ported to Linux there is no going back to Windows for me, and I'm sure it will make a lot of people switch.

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, Lukyp said:

Yes that is another point. But imho distros like Ubuntu should take a look on the user friendliness more.

There is little to no money in the Desktop market for them and they need much work to do.

And the Distributions can only do so much when the rest doesn't want to play ball with them, they can't do anything.

 

The only solution I can think of to make a good Desktop OS out of it is to fork everything and make something new based on that. But then again, you'd use BSD for that because of better licensing for commercial software. Wich is why Sony Playstation OS and MacOS X are based on BSD and not Linux...

 

Anyway, Linux is a good solution for Servers and HPC; because it is so flexible and can be set up for the specific demands and needs, with every bit removed that is not needed. That is a huge benefit for this area. Desktop usage is completely different and has other needs - for wich Linux doesn't seem to be that good of a solution...

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

There is little to no money in the Desktop market for them and they need much work to do.

And the Distributions can only do so much when the rest doesn't want to play ball with them, they can't do anything.

 

The only solution I can think of to make a good Desktop OS out of it is to fork everything and make something new based on that. But then again, you'd use BSD for that because of better licensing for commercial software. Wich is why Sony Playstation OS and MacOS X are based on BSD and not Linux...

 

Anyway, Linux is a good solution for Servers and HPC; because it is so flexible and can be set up for the specific demands and needs, with every bit removed that is not needed. That is a huge benefit for this area. Desktop usage is completely different and has other needs - for wich Linux doesn't seem to be that good of a solution...

Some solutions are really simple, ubuntu devs are just a bit stupid. They basically developed a tool called "gpu-manager" which should detect your GPU configuration and install the correct drivers, especially for laptops, that thing is not working for ages, has just a lot of lines of code for nothing.
Manjaro Linux which is based on arch, has a better GPU configuration tool that just works. It has a GUI, detects optimus laptops, the support is enabled automatically out the box. Do you believe that? In Ubuntu you have to basically destroy and edit most of the system files to get the second GPU working on laptops.
The downside of Manjaro is that does not yet support for snaps yet in the app store, so it does not have all the ubuntu programs. Oh, and the deb compatibility, even though they got the AUR, it needs more development and packages. Debs are often shipped by the software developers itself, AUR are just scripts, and they should be updated in case of something changes in the software source. (Example, url change)

So, it is not totally over imho but Ubuntu is the reference of Linux systems and they are becoming the worst user experience ever, they used to be the user-friendliness OS. Now they use...GNOME...They actually did an update with a version increase just to fix the choppyness and sutters that occurs since the 3.0 version was developed. KDE which has double the features, takes just 400MB of ram and doesn't lag.

[Guest]

You really know he is a Windows guy when he goes to the steam site to download a program. The first thing I always do is check if it is the apt repositories with apt-cache search, then try to install it. I found that stuff in the Ubuntu Store is sometimes horribly outdated, so I normally don't go there.

 

I watched the video, but I do doubt that we will all be running Linux in like 3 years or something, because as long as game developers release windows games, there is no reason for most gamers to go to Linux.

Something that might work though, is if steam would give game developers no developer fees for 6 months if they release and support a Linux version, and if that happens. And if that happens, I will delete Windows faster then the speed of light.

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, EPENEX said:

You are wrong on so many levels, the standardized way to install drivers is through your distro's package manager,

...wich is the Problem as that needs to be done for every distribution. Wich menas additional work for the Hardware Manufacturer...

The Fragmentation is not a good thing!

 

Just now, EPENEX said:

The UI is much better than Windows, you have things like the qt and kde frameworks that applications are built upon which are way more stable and themeable then windows.

Here we go again...

Not talking about that, talking about using the UI, the technology behind it is not relevant for users. Its how to use it and how much they have to learn new...

 

Windows + Number only works on Gnome

Moving around the Apps on the Taskbar is also not implementet in many Desktop enviroments.

Gnome adopted the OS X UI that is only viable for a dozend or two installed things, not hundreds like on Windows. 

 

So pls stop the hyping and look at the critique that people provided and convey it to the Linux developers. I don't want to discuss it with you here, I want it fixed and improved. 

 

Just now, EPENEX said:

Windows is dying and GNU/Linux will take it over.

I hear the same shit for at least 15 years. And nothing has changed.

Because its people like me, who try GNU/Linux, spend a couple of days, maybe weeks on it, see all the flaws and disadvantages and move back to windows.

 

Because it isn't really made for Enduser Use - DOS/Windows is.

Linux is based on Unix, Unix was always something made by Computer Scientists for Computer Scientists....

 

Windows (NT) is developed new in the mid 90s from the ground up.

Linux is based on Unix, wich is a child of the 60s...

 

Just now, EPENEX said:

I have been using GNU/Linux as my main OS for a few years now

And I have tried Linux every couple of years and always switched back because Windows is made to be used with the UI, Linux is not, the UI is just on top of the Text Mode Console stuff...

Windows was the graphical UI for DOS in the olden days, since version 5.0 the old DOS based core is gone and its using the Windows NT Core...

 

Linux should do the same and make a cut, start fresh with the future in mind, not the past...

 

Just now, EPENEX said:

And I'm sure it will make a lot of people switch.

No, you won't.

You need to be absolutely honest and help them, not bash or insult them.

You will make more wanting to stay with Windows instead.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And I have tried Linux every couple of years and always switched back because Windows is made to be used with the UI, Linux is not, the UI is just on top of the Text Mode Console stuff...

Windows was the graphical UI for DOS in the olden days, since version 5.0 the old DOS based core is gone and its using the Windows NT Core...

 

Linux should do the same and make a cut, start fresh with the future in mind, not the past...

I kinda agree with this, but also disagree. I think Linux could use a GUI that is maintained by the Linux people, not by canonical or something. And have it be compatible with whatever Linux supports, thus also a software renderer is needed. Something that annoys me is that a lot of desktop managers "Don't support some driver" and then just don't work. Where windows GUI works as long as you got a GPU with DirectX.

 

But that doesn't deny that windows is like Linux, the desktop GUI is explorer.exe, and it is just an application running on top of Windows. Just like on Linux. The thing is that WIndows GUI works so well is because it get's GPU driver support from E V E R Y device manufacturer.(Even some Android SoC's get advertised as DirectX compatible)

 

Tl;dr, Linux should get a Desktop Environment maintaned by the Linux people(torvaldis?) that is made to work on every platform, and give Linux a general face instead of that "Black and White text OS no-one understands"(quoted from some friends).

[Stefan Payne]

9 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

Some solutions are really simple, ubuntu devs are just a bit stupid.

I'd not say that.

I'd say they are ideological influenced or have a situation we call "company blindness"  (Betriebsblindheit), wich is a term used for people in a company that don't see the errors the Company has and do stuff because that's how they learned it and have always done it.

 

So a situation where you don't see problems and/or have new ideas...

 

9 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

They basically developed a tool called "gpu-manager" which should detect your GPU configuration and install the correct drivers, especially for laptops, that thing is not working for ages, has just a lot of lines of code for nothing.

Yeah, stuff like that happens sometimes...

But that kinda proves my point, does it?
Linux has no (easy) way to install drivers and often needs to be compiled against or into the kernel. 

Windows is designed to load external drivers all the time. That is the big difference...

9 minutes ago, Lukyp said:

Manjaro Linux which is based on arch, has a better GPU configuration tool that just works. It has a GUI, detects optimus laptops, the support is enabled automatically out the box. Do you believe that?

Yeah, I do.

But you also have to admit that they are both based on different "Cores". 

The Problem could be that the implementation on an Arch based Linux system might be more trivial than it is on a Debian based Linux distribution.

 

And here we have the Problem with the Fragmentation and incompatibility between Linux Distributions...

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, timl132 said:

I kinda agree with this, but also disagree.

Wonderful!
I like talking to people!!

1 minute ago, timl132 said:

I think Linux could use a GUI that is maintained by the Linux people, not by canonical or something. And have it be compatible with whatever Linux supports, thus also a software renderer is needed. Something that annoys me is that a lot of desktop managers "Don't support some driver" and then just don't work. Where windows GUI works as long as you got a GPU with DirectX.

Yes, I totally agree with that.

And its also the Fragmentation Problem, that you have a dozend or so of APIs and Programms between the Kernel and the UI. 

 

Its just too many things/team that have to work together...

 

And that is one of the reasons why I say that a really big Company has to fork everything and build something new that is better than the old stuff...

 

1 minute ago, timl132 said:

But that doesn't deny that windows is like Linux, the desktop GUI is explorer.exe, and it is just an application running on top of Windows. Just like on Linux. The thing is that WIndows GUI works so well is because it get's GPU driver support from E V E R Y device manufacturer.(Even some Android SoC's get advertised as DirectX compatible)

Its not the only reason but one of the reasons.

Another reason is that there is one developer behind it that makes everything work together, though some of the APIs might be ancient...

 

So when M$ sees a problem that is caused by the API, they can find their way around that with either making a new API or enhancing the old APIs that are needed.

With Linux IIRC you don't have that power. The UI Developers only develop their UIs, the APIs are often done by different people...

 

One of the Projects to make this better is Wayland for example. 

 

1 minute ago, timl132 said:

Tl;dr, Linux should get a Desktop Environment maintaned by the Linux people(torvaldis?) that is made to work on every platform, and give Linux a general face instead of that "Black and White text OS no-one understands"(quoted from some friends).

I agree with that.

The Linux Kernel should take a bigger bunch of the Linux stuff and also develop the Window Server and all the APIs that are needed.

And also define a way to install drivers (and possibly other stuff)...

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

I'd not say that.

I'd say they are ideological influenced or have a situation we call "company blindness"  (Betriebsblindheit), wich is a term used for people in a company that don't see the errors the Company has and do stuff because that's how they learned it and have always done it.

 

So a situation where you don't see problems and/or have new ideas...

 

Yeah, stuff like that happens sometimes...

But that kinda proves my point, does it?
Linux has no (easy) way to install drivers and often needs to be compiled against or into the kernel. 

Windows is designed to load external drivers all the time. That is the big difference...

Yeah, I do.

But you also have to admit that they are both based on different "Cores". 

The Problem could be that the implementation on an Arch based Linux system might be more trivial than it is on a Debian based Linux distribution.

 

And here we have the Problem with the Fragmentation and incompatibility between Linux Distributions...

They differs for the package versions and managing, but the solution could be very simple. Ubuntu doesn't let you install more nvidia drivers version, and that makes sense. They finally stopped renaming the kernel modules, so configuring nvidia bumblebee .conf would just be the same for all drivers. What they don't do is fixing their bumblebee packages because they don't work you need to install the ppa lol.
Or maybe integrate a bumblebee driver config from their "Devices driver manager" 
On arch linux is just configuring a single line of text for make bumblebee working after you installed the packages rofl

[EPENEX]

24 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And its also the Fragmentation Problem, that you have a dozend or so of APIs and Programms between the Kernel and the UI. 

What you're basically saying is that variety and choice is a bad thing. With GNU/Linux you get to choose and have the freedom to use what works for you.

[xXxAdamxXx]

2 hours ago, MEC-777 said:

Windows 10 feels to me like it's been copying things that Linux has been doing for years.  

 

Funny how we all perceive things differently. 

I would take XP's design over Windows 10's design, it feels like Microsoft is sniffing glue.