New AMP / DAC Combo - Suggestions?

[Tz000]

Currently I have a Fx-Audio DAC X6 and although its an amazing unit for the price after 2 years of nearly daily use it sounds like the amp is starting to die? I get this really tinny thin sound out of it then after a quick power on/off it goes back to normal, I have noticed some more heat than usual coming from the unit as well..

 

Headphones I have:  M40x, XPT 100's, HD6XX , HD558 & some AKG iems.  

 

Leaning toward the Schiit Stack because of output power of the amp but being in Canada shipping and the exchange rate brings the cost up over $300.00 which is still a decent deal.. but I cannot find anything comparable with that kind of output power for higher impedance headphones.

 

So my question becomes does anyone know of any all in one units, separate amp/dac setups in the sub $350.00 CAD zone.  Bonus points if it has a small speaker amp for my desktop speakers (Micca MB42x).

 

Any help or suggestions appreciated, thanks your your time.

 

Cheers.

 

[Taf the Ghost]

@Tz000 The Magni 3 can operate as a pre-amp to the speakers, so there's kind of a pass through ability, but I can see your issue.

 

DAC/Amp:  https://www.amazon.ca/Converter-Digital-Headphone-Amplifier-Pre-Amplifier/dp/B07G2NQYLX

 

Speaker Amp: https://www.amazon.ca/Amplifier-Channel-Bookshelf-Computer-Speakers/dp/B07BVKLL6K

 

Seem decent enough, but, well, everyone's ears are their own and there is "better for more money" in Audio.

[Tz000]

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

@Tz000 The Magni 3 can operate as a pre-amp to the speakers, so there's kind of a pass through ability, but I can see your issue.

 

DAC/Amp:  https://www.amazon.ca/Converter-Digital-Headphone-Amplifier-Pre-Amplifier/dp/B07G2NQYLX

 

Speaker Amp: https://www.amazon.ca/Amplifier-Channel-Bookshelf-Computer-Speakers/dp/B07BVKLL6K

 

Seem decent enough, but, well, everyone's ears are their own and there is "better for more money" in Audio.

Thanks for your suggestion but the dac amp is a rebrand of the current unit I have now.   Also looking for a bit more quality than those units suggested.

 

cheers

[Taf the Ghost]

17 minutes ago, Tz000 said:

Thanks for your suggestion but the dac amp is a rebrand of the current unit I have now.   Also looking for a bit more quality than those units suggested.

 

cheers

The power of the Schitt Stack is that it's pretty much unbeatable Price to Performance in Audio. Doesn't look to be any reasonable Objective2s available on Amazon.ca, so trying to improve the DAC situation seems pretty rough.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/A4-Bluetooth-Amplifier-Supports-Subwoofer/dp/B078W58RV9/  Here's a full scale desktop Amp with outs for your speakers as well.

 

Looks like total cost, with shipping to Toronto included, would be 140USD for a Modi 2. So around 185CAD, if there's no conversion costs. (Which I can't find in their system at the moment.) 

[Taf the Ghost]

@Dackzy might be able to suggest something else. 

[Dackzy]

There is the ifi nano idsd black label. In audio quality it is as good as the stack, maybe in some ways a tad better, but it isn't as powerful, though it should be enough for HD6XX. It also has a line out on the back which you can connect to a receiver or speaker amp with a build in preamp.

There really aren't any units that offer good performance for both headphones and passive speakers.

 

Other than the ifi you could look used for a Audio GD NFB11 or just generally see what the used market has.

I can't really think of anything else that is good in this price.

 

I will however advice you to stay away from Topping and SMSL. Their gear might seem good on paper, but don't let that fool you. Topping gear has a stupid high output impedance, the A30 has a output impedance of 10-30ohm, keep in mind a magni 3 is like 0.2ohm and a the Valhalla 2 is 10ohm and that is a OTL tube amp. So they have somehow made a solid state amp with a higher output impedance than a tube amp. The D30 is warm and muddy, not very detailed at all, it measures well, but it sounds awful.

SMSL products aren't the most reliable in my experience and the value in terms of the sound quality is mediocre at best IMO.

[Tz000]

1 hour ago, Dackzy said:

There is the ifi nano idsd black label. In audio quality it is as good as the stack, maybe in some ways a tad better, but it isn't as powerful, though it should be enough for HD6XX. It also has a line out on the back which you can connect to a receiver or speaker amp with a build in preamp.

There really aren't any units that offer good performance for both headphones and passive speakers.

 

Other than the ifi you could look used for a Audio GD NFB11 or just generally see what the used market has.

I can't really think of anything else that is good in this price.

 

I will however advice you to stay away from Topping and SMSL. Their gear might seem good on paper, but don't let that fool you. Topping gear has a stupid high output impedance, the A30 has a output impedance of 10-30ohm, keep in mind a magni 3 is like 0.2ohm and a the Valhalla 2 is 10ohm and that is a OTL tube amp. So they have somehow made a solid state amp with a higher output impedance than a tube amp. The D30 is warm and muddy, not very detailed at all, it measures well, but it sounds awful.

SMSL products aren't the most reliable in my experience and the value in terms of the sound quality is mediocre at best IMO.

Appreciate your answer, thanks!  Ill take a look at the products suggested and see if I can find anything in the used market in my area.

 

Cheers.

[Tz000]

12 hours ago, Dackzy said:

 

@Dackzy  Hey, decided to look at my local classifieds and found a Audio-GD NFB-5 what do you know about this unit?    Hes asking $220.00 CAD.

[Dackzy]

16 minutes ago, Tz000 said:

@Dackzy  Hey, decided to look at my local classifieds and found a Audio-GD NFB-5 what do you know about this unit?    Hes asking $220.00 CAD.

all I know is that it is a 2011 model. I haven't tried it and I don't know anybody that has

[an actual squirrel]

The topping d30 is the highest performance dac in this price range afaik. There is a comparison of it and the modi 2 uber here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-measurement-and-comparison-of-schiit-modi-2-uber-and-topping-d30.3207/

 

As for headphone amps, power (which governs the volume of the headphones) is usually not such a big deal. Often, the problem is the volume pot can't lower the power enough without running into channel imbalance problems. Anyway, here I would probably still go with a schiit magni 3 or a massdrop desktop o2. 

[Tz000]

41 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

The topping d30 is the highest performance dac in this price range afaik. There is a comparison of it and the modi 2 uber here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-measurement-and-comparison-of-schiit-modi-2-uber-and-topping-d30.3207/

 

As for headphone amps, power (which governs the volume of the headphones) is usually not such a big deal. Often, the problem is the volume pot can't lower the power enough without running into channel imbalance problems. Anyway, here I would probably still go with a schiit magni 3 or a massdrop desktop o2. 

Thanks for the suggestions, What are your thoughts on the A30 amp?  they look good together as well haha!

[an actual squirrel]

I would avoid the a30. It has high output impedance, which means a low damping factor for many headphones.

[Dackzy]

On 9/9/2018 at 6:08 AM, an actual squirrel said:

The topping d30 is the highest performance dac in this price range afaik. There is a comparison of it and the modi 2 uber here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-measurement-and-comparison-of-schiit-modi-2-uber-and-topping-d30.3207/

 

As for headphone amps, power (which governs the volume of the headphones) is usually not such a big deal. Often, the problem is the volume pot can't lower the power enough without running into channel imbalance problems. Anyway, here I would probably still go with a schiit magni 3 or a massdrop desktop o2. 

It sounds like ass. Muddy and no detail, how many times do I have to tell you that measurements aren't everything. Nobody with trained ears call the D30 for good or even decent, only that biased website and newbies think it is good. The O2 is also bad, especially if you run high impedance headphones.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 6:50 AM, Tz000 said:

Thanks for the suggestions, What are your thoughts on the A30 amp?  they look good together as well haha!

I literally told you to stay away from Topping gear.

[an actual squirrel]

2 hours ago, Dackzy said:

It sounds like ass. Muddy and no detail, how many times do I have to tell you that measurements aren't everything. Nobody with trained ears call the D30 for good or even decent, only that biased website and newbies think it is good. The O2 is also bad, especially if you run high impedance headphones.

Measurements are a direct way to gauge the quality of a dac, and give people an opportunity to see them the way the dac designers do. The machines used can describe what they are hearing with far greater precision than humans. Listening tests are often flawed (eg they aren't done blind or volume matching isn't done). Also, you can't listen directly to a dac, you would need to use an amp and speakers/headphones as well, so there's much more variables in a listening test.

 

With higher impedance headphones, usually headphone amps perform better, o2 and magni 3 included. If you want measurements with the lowest distortion, test with a 600 ohm load. If you go from like a beyerdynamic dt880 32 ohm to the 600 ohm version, the amp performance gained could rival an amp upgrade.

[seduce_me]

Can't really go wrong with so many options, just stay away from cheap OTL tube amps. It may sound enticing to pair with your HD6XXs with promises of a warm smooth sound.

 

At best, it sounds limp, overly warm and a sense of buyer's remorse. At worst, the sound won't be the only thing that's warm. Your whole house will be on fire, sounds warm enough to me.

[Dackzy]

3 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

Measurements are a direct way to gauge the quality of a dac, and give people an opportunity to see them the way the dac designers do. The machines used can describe what they are hearing with far greater precision than humans. Listening tests are often flawed (eg they aren't done blind or volume matching isn't done). Also, you can't listen directly to a dac, you would need to use an amp and speakers/headphones as well, so there's much more variables in a listening test.

 

With higher impedance headphones, usually headphone amps perform better, o2 and magni 3 included. If you want measurements with the lowest distortion, test with a 600 ohm load. If you go from like a beyerdynamic dt880 32 ohm to the 600 ohm version, the amp performance gained could rival an amp upgrade.

You can hear with the D30 that it is muddy and not very good at reproducing details. It is honestly a mess to listen to, probably the worst DAC in the $100 budget I have heard in a while. You can pair it with a Corda classic, little labs monotor, Genelec or DynAudio studiomonitors and it sound awful with all of them. Listening tests can be flawed, but so can measurements and you must know that no audio company in the world just goes "this measures well, let's release it", at least not any of the decent ones. I know your whole deal is measurements measurements and measurements, but there are plenty of things you can't measure and measurements don't always align with what people hear, plus you should really go out and try gear, instead of just looking at measurements, that's the only way you truely will know how something will perform. I like measurements too, but I sure as hell won't just go "this is good, because of this measurement" I will listen before I judge a product.

 

Yes the modi 2 has some flaws, like the bad USB section, so it is very sensitive to the signal and I personally don't recommend it, because the uber model is better for not a lot more, but it has more detail than the D30.

The O2 is overall a low quality amp, it clips and blurs. The O2 with HD 600 and 650 is probably one of the worst amps to get, I have had HD 650 and HD 600 and a O2 and it is a bad paring, I heard clipping and bluring from it, before you go say "you had a bad unit" I have also tried my friends unit and then another unit at a meet, 3/3 doing this isn't just a coincidence.

 

and before you go say that I am a schiit fan, then I can imform you that I actually rather dislike most of their products, because of the tuning they have, but in this budget they are pretty much the best option, except the ifi nano idsd black label, that unit is also quite good for $200.

[kokakolia]

What do you guys think of the AudioEngine D1? It went down in price a bunch. 

[an actual squirrel]

6 hours ago, Dackzy said:

You can hear with the D30 that it is muddy and not very good at reproducing details. It is honestly a mess to listen to, probably the worst DAC in the $100 budget I have heard in a while. You can pair it with a Corda classic, little labs monotor, Genelec or DynAudio studiomonitors and it sound awful with all of them. Listening tests can be flawed, but so can measurements and you must know that no audio company in the world just goes "this measures well, let's release it", at least not any of the decent ones. I know your whole deal is measurements measurements and measurements, but there are plenty of things you can't measure and measurements don't always align with what people hear, plus you should really go out and try gear, instead of just looking at measurements, that's the only way you truely will know how something will perform. I like measurements too, but I sure as hell won't just go "this is good, because of this measurement" I will listen before I judge a product.

 

Yes the modi 2 has some flaws, like the bad USB section, so it is very sensitive to the signal and I personally don't recommend it, because the uber model is better for not a lot more, but it has more detail than the D30.

The O2 is overall a low quality amp, it clips and blurs. The O2 with HD 600 and 650 is probably one of the worst amps to get, I have had HD 650 and HD 600 and a O2 and it is a bad paring, I heard clipping and bluring from it, before you go say "you had a bad unit" I have also tried my friends unit and then another unit at a meet, 3/3 doing this isn't just a coincidence.

 

Audio companies, unless they are delusional, are indeed relying mainly on measurements to guide their designs. If they talk abstractly about sound quality, it is just an act to maintain the mystique about what they do, for marketing purposes. The job of dacs is to create the electrical waveform that they are instructed to make. It makes more sense to check this with a scope than to put it through an amp, some speakers/headphones, convert to air pressure waves, and then rely on the opinions of humans, who are notoriously susceptible to biases.

 

There's something called the nocebo effect, where people's negative expectations influence their experiences. You strike me as the type of person involved in the audiophile subculture, observing the community's reactions to various products. Have you considered that hearing negative anecdotes involving the topping d30 and the o2 headphone amp actually caused your psyche to subconsciously manifest problems in your experiences with them?

[Guest]

Re: nocebo effect. @an actual squirrel . Your comment struck a chord with me as I fart around with my listening nook. My assembled toys are as good as I’m willing to make it (my beer allowance keeps getting obliterated with new audio toys). This forum HELPED me achieve that AURAL nirvana (thanks again, eh).

My latest obsession is getting music source files (albums) that were properly remastered from the analog sources (or were “DDD” properly in the first place). Oh lordy, I though audiophile gear was a deep rabbit hole & time suck!

 

With my gear, I can’t tell the difference between a well recorded 16-bit (i.e., CD) album and a 24-bit files.

 

@Tz000 ...what are going to end up buying? The Audio-GD has almost a mythical reputation here and at head-fi.org .

Edited September 10, 2018 by Guest
Audio-GD ... used?! Damn!!!!

[Guest]

On 2018-09-08 at 1:07 AM, Taf the Ghost said:

The power of the Schitt Stack is that it's pretty much unbeatable Price to Performance in Audio. Doesn't look to be any reasonable Objective2s available on Amazon.ca, so trying to improve the DAC situation seems pretty rough.

 

https://www.amazon.ca/A4-Bluetooth-Amplifier-Supports-Subwoofer/dp/B078W58RV9/  Here's a full scale desktop Amp with outs for your speakers as well.

 

Looks like total cost, with shipping to Toronto included, would be 140USD for a Modi 2. So around 185CAD, if there's no conversion costs. (Which I can't find in their system at the moment.) 

When I assembled my Schiit stack & Massdrop HD6xx over the summer, I got hosed for brokerage fees and HST. If I understand the OP, an Audio-GD surfaced here in Ontario (?). God, if that’s true, that’d be fascinating to hear about.

[Dackzy]

8 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

Audio companies, unless they are delusional, are indeed relying mainly on measurements to guide their designs. If they talk abstractly about sound quality, it is just an act to maintain the mystique about what they do, for marketing purposes. The job of dacs is to create the electrical waveform that they are instructed to make. It makes more sense to check this with a scope than to put it through an amp, some speakers/headphones, convert to air pressure waves, and then rely on the opinions of humans, who are notoriously susceptible to biases.

 

There's something called the nocebo effect, where people's negative expectations influence their experiences. You strike me as the type of person involved in the audiophile subculture, observing the community's reactions to various products. Have you considered that hearing negative anecdotes involving the topping d30 and the o2 headphone amp actually caused your psyche to subconsciously manifest problems in your experiences with them?

Most audio companies test their gear with listening too, idk what small or bad company you have been at, but they test their gear with their own ears too, this also goes for DACs. Which is also why we have things like the BBC dip in the speaker world. In theory then those speakers were perfect in their response, but it just didn't sound right to any of the sound engineers, until they made that dip.

 

Do you even test gear before you talk about it? Because if you don't, then you are talking blindly about it, which courses more damage than like zeos does. Because you only get such a small fragment of the whole picture.

 

Actually even when I started I disliked the O2 and it was being hyped a lot around that time, only positive things about it. I don't think that I had even heard of the D30 before I tried it, so nope again.

 

If you have any experience, especially in the engineering field then you would know that theory is all well, but it doesn't always work in practice.

 

You can also take a look at the RME adi 2 DAC, I think ASR praised that one even more than the D30, but the measurements doesn't tell you that it isn't very dynamic and that the presentation of the music is very flat, not just in frequency. Overall it is fairly dead sounding. The measurements couldn't tell you this.

 

I actually don't spend much time in the audiophile community, I spend time in the audio engineer and studio community. Which is something I actually have said quite a few times and it should be fairly obvious from the gear I have and the taste I have.

 

As I said earlier measurements are fine and all, but they don't show the whole picture and they never will. 

The best way of testing imo is to avoid reading and looking at measurements, make your thoughts about the product and then check measurements to see how they align with those. That way you don't get colored by other people's thoughts and measurements.

[an actual squirrel]

@Dackzy 

What it looks like to me, is that there are cases where we have fairly conclusive evidence that a certain dac or amp is good, but you choose the eschew those results for others that were likely the result of a flawed test methodology (eg lack of blind testing or volume matching). You say things like "measurements are fine and all, but they don't show the whole picture and they never will.", when the human auditory system itself is a biological measurement apparatus for auditory stimuli.

 

I'm reminded of the story of Clever Hans, the early 20th century horse that could purportedly solve math problems. This seemed like an impossible task for a horse, but the early evidence appeared to bear it out. Upon further investigation with better quality testing, it turned out the early evidence was flawed, and it was shown that the horse was simply reading the facial expressions and body language of his trainer, to get to the right number. The stubborn trainer however, could never accept the idea that his horse didn't learn math.

[Dackzy]

9 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

@Dackzy 

What it looks like to me, is that there are cases where we have fairly conclusive evidence that a certain dac or amp is good, but you choose the eschew those results for others that were likely the result of a flawed test methodology (eg lack of blind testing or volume matching). You say things like "measurements are fine and all, but they don't show the whole picture and they never will.", when the human auditory system itself is a biological measurement apparatus for auditory stimuli.

 

I'm reminded of the story of Clever Hans, the early 20th century horse that could purportedly solve math problems. This seemed like an impossible task for a horse, but the early evidence appeared to bear it out. Upon further investigation with better quality testing, it turned out the early evidence was flawed, and it was shown that the horse was simply reading the facial expressions and body language of his trainer, to get to the right number. The stubborn trainer however, could never accept the idea that his horse didn't learn math.

Okay tell me this, does measurements show, width, imagning, detail retrival, how dynamic it sounds or if the stagning is flat? I can also point to the case of the Yggy, you should know that one, it measures like shit, but it is far more detailed than the D30 and also more detailed than the RME ADI 2 DAC. Plus the measurements you are refering to are made by a guy I will call less than credible and if you have ever done a experiment or done some measurering youself, then you should know that there can be plenty of flaws in those as well.

 

 

 

If you ever get to spend some time in the engineering field then you will notice that theory is all well, but it doesn't always aling with reality. In this case low detail retrival from the D30 and overall fairly warm and in other cases the ADI 2 DAC that has a fairly dead sound or the speakers with the BBC dip. 

 

I think I should be the last person you talk about measurements and especially any forms of theory, I like both, I honestly love both, but I don't belittle the importance of actually testing and hearing.

 

I take it that you don't actually test gear before you talk about it, which is such a bad idea, because you will have no idea how things actually compare in detail retrival or if things are being smoothed over. 

 

I don't think that we will ever 100% agree.

[an actual squirrel]

Schiit released the modi 3 now, and they are claiming big improvements. It's a tacit acknowledgement that they goofed with the modi 2.

[GamerDude]

I always look at audio measurements as a guide, no more than that because, as Dackzy had said, they do not give us an idea of the soundstage, imaging and detailing like our ears do. I'd gotten the ENIGMAcoustics Dharma D1000 though the measurements don't look to be, but Tyll and a few other reviewers have said regardless of 'issues' with the measurement, it sounded good. I have the Dharma D1000 now and I must say, it is one of the better sounding cans I have.....sorta like a HD800 in terms of clarity, but a smaller soundstage (more like an AKG K812 but with a nice bass boost, bass doesn't seem to bleed to mids at all). It's a more fun yet detailed sounding can.