What DAC/AMP is wort it?

[zOlid]

So im looking in to getting better audio on my computer. Cos the onboard dont sound great at all.

I tried me a pair of Sennheiser HD 599 but was not pleased with the sound, so i changed to a pair of Philips Fidelio x2 that isound better to me. I might get better headphones later, but for now that is what i use.

I also have a pair of Monster Turbine Pro Gold that i use.

 

I have tried a Asus Xonar U7 that i just couldn't get to sound good.

Atm i have a Dragonfly Red, that sound A LOT better, but i am missing having a knob to change volume with, and where my computer is situated, i tend to pull on the cable, and that cant be that good for the Dragonfly since the cable is attached straight in to it and the usb port.

 

So what ive been looking at is a Schiit modi/magi 2, maybe just the Dac part as uber, or none of the parts as uber.

The issue is that they cost quite a lot to ship/buy.

Ive also looked at the SMSL Q5 PRO, that i can get for less then half the price of the Schiit stack here in sweden.

 

So i guess my question is: Is it worth the extra money to go for the Schiit stack? Or is the SMSL Q5 just as good for my headphones?

Will any of them sound better/worse than the dragonfly Red? Or is it best to just add a headphone amp to the Dragonfly?

Do you have any other suggestion for more "Bang for your buck" than my suggestions? Budget up to 350eur, if its worth it.

It would not hurt, if i could connect some small speakers to the amp either in the future. But atm its just headphones.

Also, i dont know if there are any on the market where i can attach a mic also for chat audio, but that would be a + (Not super important since i can use the onboard one if needed, it does tend to create some static tho some times.

Nice design of the product is also a +, and i like the Schiit design.

 

I do game a lot on my computer, but i also listen to music.

[Dackzy]

Q5 pro sucks ass.TBH I wouldn't go above a fulla 2 for those headphones, I am pretty sure that schiit-europe.com are really cheap with shipping, maybe even free. Ofc if you just want to say fuck it then get a schiit stack OR save a bit more up and get a audio gd NFB 11 from magnahifi, but that wouldn't really be worth it.

[zOlid]

2 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Q5 pro sucks ass.TBH I wouldn't go above a fulla 2 for those headphones, I am pretty sure that schiit-europe.com are really cheap with shipping, maybe even free. Ofc if you just want to say fuck it then get a schiit stack OR save a bit more up and get a audio gd NFB 11 from magnahifi, but that wouldn't really be worth it.

The reason i havent looked at the fulla 2, is that it have no gain switch. And in many reviews they say you need to push it up a bit to get the balance right. 

Since i dont have hard to drive headphones, it feels like i need to play quite loud to get it working good.

 

I saw the Q5 Pro recommended by some one else here on the forums, so thats why i looked it up.

 

A Schiit stack non uber costs 270eur with shipping.

[zOlid]

Also a bit off topic, but i dont get how people say that, the onboard audio is good enough for low impedance headphones.

I have a MSI z170 G7 Motherboard, 1 year old with all the bells an whisles.

And the difference in sound quality compared to the Dragonfly red is huge.

With the onboard, the sound is really harsh, and even if it does not sound super bad, it makes your head hurt. It was the same with the Xonar U7.

But the dragonfly sounds a lot better compared to the Xonar and the onboard.

[unholyprfection]

I have spent time studying and volunteering in the sound industry and I can honestly say that for products like this you should try before you buy. Everyone prefers a different sound making it hard to tell what will work best. If you can't try it then I would recommend knowing what type of sound you like. Do you want a flat unaltered sound that is great for working with sound that will be played for others (live/recorded) Do you prefer a bit of extra bass? do you dislike losing some of the high end to get that bass? A good way to test this is to get a graphic equalizer program and play around with the different frequencies to find what you like most. Some company's will include how the amp/dac effect the sound and if not you might find some good info in the reviews.

You should also know what you want to get out of it. Amps and DAC's don't improve sound quality how ever an external one may reduce some interference from pc components. What they will do how ever is change the sound profile (adding more bass for example) and allow for a louder listening level. 

Personally I find that they just aren't worth the money to begin with unless you need one to drive a specific pair of headphones. That's just me tho, Like I said it's different for everyone.

DAC = Digital to Analog Converter
AMP = Amplifier

Gain will increase the noise floor (the hiss in the back ground) so be warned that while it makes your music louder it dose the same to noise.

Sound quality can only be improved by using a higher bit rate or a less compressed format (compression can distort audio as can a lower bit rate). The only time you can "improve the sound" is when editing the source to remove things like noise and harsh frequencies.

4 minutes ago, zOlid said:

With the onboard, the sound is really harsh

 A proper eq can help fix this. If not than go for either a PCI/PCI-E or USB based DAC or AMP as it will still be harsh if you try to go from an audio out on your mobo to the dac/amp. Keep in mind Amp standalone units will only take a signal from a DAC or output from another amp and amplify it.

[unholyprfection]

Forgot to mention the "harsh" sound prob isn't a quality issue but just a bad stock eq

[Dackzy]

1 hour ago, zOlid said:

The reason i havent looked at the fulla 2, is that it have no gain switch. And in many reviews they say you need to push it up a bit to get the balance right. 

Since i dont have hard to drive headphones, it feels like i need to play quite loud to get it working good.

 

I saw the Q5 Pro recommended by some one else here on the forums, so thats why i looked it up.

 

A Schiit stack non uber costs 270eur with shipping.

 

Who said that it has balance issues? I have tried it and I didn't hear any balance issues (unlike my o2)

the schiit stack is TBH overkill for what you have, but it is a option and it will be able to power almost every headphone you throw at it.

1 hour ago, unholyprfection said:

SNIP

 

kek m8, just kek. There is so much wrong here, it isn't even funny. Also, you made a funny little mistake. It is called amp, not AMP. If you wrote AMP then that would imply that it is an acronym and not just an abbreviation. DAC is an acronym, while amp is an abbreviation.

 

To say that a better DAC and amp won't improve audio quality is outright a lie. If we look at a cheap DAC and a more expensive one, the more expensive one might use a PCM 1704 while the cheap one uses some china thing then just on the specs we would be able to see that the PCM 1704 will make a better analog signal compared to the no name china one, but now we start to get into the more interesting part, the implementation. You might have a DAC that uses a PCM 1704 which is among the best chips (not saying it is the best), BUT if the implementation is bad then the DAC would be bad. The higher you go with DACs the better the implementation typically gets, it is not a given that the chip itself is being upgraded when going from let's say a 150$ DAC to a 250-300$ DAC, but if the implementation gets better than you will notice an audio quality jump.

 

Implementation is also a big part of an amp design and can make or break an amp. We also have the old headphone amp pairing, some headphones need more voltage, while others need more current. So getting an amp that gives what your headphones wants would improve the audio quality. Low ohm headphones want more current, while higher ohm headphones want more voltage, but amp headphone pairing is not really something the normal user should think too much about.

The signal in a higher quality amp will also be higher than the signal in a low-quality one.

 

So no better files aren't the only way to get higher audio quality. 

 

Also never double amp a signal.

[zOlid]

3 hours ago, Dackzy said:

Who said that it has balance issues? I have tried it and I didn't hear any balance issues (unlike my o2)

the schiit stack is TBH overkill for what you have, but it is a option and it will be able to power almost every headphone you throw at it.

 

There are a lot of threads, reviews and such that mention this. After a quick google, this thread mention it a lot:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-fulla-2-impressions-thread.828228/page-64

And so on.

It is mentioned in most reviews ive found actually.

[Dackzy]

Just now, zOlid said:

There are a lot of threads, reviews and such that mention this. After a quick google, this thread mention it a lot:

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/schiit-fulla-2-impressions-thread.828228/page-64

 

hmmm, I personally didn't have it on the unit I tested but that might have been a "perfect" unit, quite interesting though. I can read that schiit knows about it, but say that it should be gone at 8 o'clock and above. The same problem might also be on the magni 2 and that is a much more powerful amp

[zOlid]

Just now, Dackzy said:

hmmm, I personally didn't have it on the unit I tested but that might have been a "perfect" unit, quite interesting though. I can read that schiit knows about it, but say that it should be gone at 8 o'clock and above. The same problem might also be on the magni 2 and that is a much more powerful amp

Yes that is true.

But at least you have a high/low gain setting on that. So should be easier to get past if you use the low setting.

[Dackzy]

4 minutes ago, zOlid said:

Yes that is true.

But at least you have a high/low gain setting on that. So should be easier to get past if you use the low setting.

 

the Fulla 2 is basically only low gain only. You should be able to turn the fulla 2 above 8 o'clock with the X2's. 

[zOlid]

23 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

the Fulla 2 is basically only low gain only. You should be able to turn the fulla 2 above 8 o'clock with the X2's. 

hmm ok.

 

Well.... 

Im leaning more to the stack, maybe overkill, but like i said i might swap out the headphones in the future.

 

Next question: Is it worth to go up to Uber on any of them?

Seems like the uber DAC can support 192khz with no drivers, but the non uber cant. Also more ports.

Also, some one said that "The uber dac is better since it dont runt on USB power, and have a better sound cos of that" (I dont know if this holds any water tbh.)

 

The uber amp have more ports. So i can run a pair of powered speakers on it also (Right?)

And that could be kinda nice for the future also. Is it worth it tho? Or might i as well just run those same speakers from the normal headphone plug, with an adapter?

 

[elira]

17 minutes ago, zOlid said:

hmm ok.

 

Well.... 

Im leaning more to the stack, maybe overkill, but like i said i might swap out the headphones in the future.

 

Next question: Is it worth to go up to Uber on any of them?

Seems like the uber DAC can support 192khz with no drivers, but the non uber cant. Also more ports.

Also, some one said that "The uber dac is better since it dont runt on USB power, and have a better sound cos of that" (I dont know if this holds any water tbh.)

 

The uber amp have more ports. So i can run a pair of powered speakers on it also (Right?)

And that could be kinda nice for the future also. Is it worth it tho? Or might i as well just run those same speakers from the normal headphone plug, with an adapter?

 

If you are going to use the pre out of the magni 2 uber, it may be worth it. For the DAC I think a modi multibit is worth it, not so sure about the uber one unless you are planning to use one of the additional inputs.

[zOlid]

3 minutes ago, elira said:

If you are going to use the pre out of the magni 2 uber, it may be worth it. For the DAC I think a modi multibit is worth it, not so sure about the uber one unless you are planning to use one of the additional inputs.

The multibit is 300eur tho. A bit to much cash.

[Dackzy]

25 minutes ago, zOlid said:

hmm ok.

 

Well.... 

Im leaning more to the stack, maybe overkill, but like i said i might swap out the headphones in the future.

 

Next question: Is it worth to go up to Uber on any of them?

Seems like the uber DAC can support 192khz with no drivers, but the non uber cant. Also more ports.

Also, some one said that "The uber dac is better since it dont runt on USB power, and have a better sound cos of that" (I dont know if this holds any water tbh.)

 

The uber amp have more ports. So i can run a pair of powered speakers on it also (Right?)

And that could be kinda nice for the future also. Is it worth it tho? Or might i as well just run those same speakers from the normal headphone plug, with an adapter?

 

anything above 16bit 44.1kHz doesn't really matter.... The uber is better because it has a slightly better chip, that is it.

I am actually not sure you can get the magni 2 above 8 o'clock, it is a very powerful amp for the price. I think it has close to 4 times the power of the fulla 2.

 

Yes you can connect a pair of powered speakers to the magni 2 uber and it has even more power than the none uber.

[zOlid]

1 minute ago, Dackzy said:

anything above 16bit 44.1kHz doesn't really matter.... The uber is better because it has a slightly better chip, that is it.

I am actually not sure you can get the magni 2 above 8 o'clock, it is a very powerful amp for the price. I think it has close to 4 times the power of the fulla 2.

 

Yes you can connect a pair of powered speakers to the magni 2 uber and it has even more power than the none uber.

Not even on low gain?

 

[SSL]

1 minute ago, zOlid said:

Not even on low gain?

 

 

No. The Magni amps have excessive amounts of gain, imo, especially considering how small the volume pots are.

[zOlid]

Just now, SSL said:

 

No. The Magni amps have excessive amounts of gain, imo, especially considering how small the volume pots are.

Hmmm. Ok...

What should i look at then? 

[elira]

56 minutes ago, zOlid said:

Hmmm. Ok...

What should i look at then? 

You can use a sys or something similar to reduce the input signal.

[SSL]

1 hour ago, zOlid said:

Hmmm. Ok...

What should i look at then? 

 

Audioquest dragonfly or something? Even an Asus Xonar DX. The HD 5x9 don't warrant anything crazy for amplification.

[zOlid]

Just now, SSL said:

 

Audioquest dragonfly or something? Even an Asus Xonar DX. The HD 5x9 don't warrant anything crazy for amplification.

Im using a pair of Fidelio x2 atm. Returned the 599.

I have a Dragon Fly Red on loan atm, and it sounds great. But like i said, i like the aesthetics of an external DAC on the desk, and i kind of miss having a knob to turn volume up/down.

 

[elira]

You can go with something less mainstream like a CORDA PCSTEP from Meier Audio.

[Monte_Carlo]

7 hours ago, zOlid said:

hmm ok.

 

Well.... 

Im leaning more to the stack, maybe overkill, but like i said i might swap out the headphones in the future.

 

Next question: Is it worth to go up to Uber on any of them?

Seems like the uber DAC can support 192khz with no drivers, but the non uber cant. Also more ports.

Also, some one said that "The uber dac is better since it dont runt on USB power, and have a better sound cos of that" (I dont know if this holds any water tbh.)

 

The uber amp have more ports. So i can run a pair of powered speakers on it also (Right?)

And that could be kinda nice for the future also. Is it worth it tho? Or might i as well just run those same speakers from the normal headphone plug, with an adapter?

 

 

The Uber Schiit stack is a great bit of future proofing imo.  And runs quite nicely with my Sennheiser HD650s.  I do sort of regret going for the Modi 2 Uber since the extra power brick is a pain to deal with, but I've got quite a solid amount of future expansion with the extra inputs.  Magni 2 Uber proved to be worth the 50 dollar upgrade in the end since I recently acquired speakers that I could hook up.  

 

Adapters have their own drawbacks, so I'm quite happy with the speaker outs on my Magni.  Just a heads up.  From what I could find on the Schiit site, your mileage may vary for drivers for the DAC.  So they provide some drivers for the times you fall short.  

 

Can't say too much about comparisons to other amps, but I'd avoid the HifiMAN EF2x series.  The gain was pretty wild even with my HD650s, and I had other issues with channel imbalance at low volume levels.  DAC was alright, but conked out on me early on, and later on I started getting some major static/hissing issues regardless of the tubes used.

 

At this point you could easily treat a schiit stack as the ultimate budget solution, and stop your audio quest there.  

 

For cheaper/portable solutions... I've heard good things about Fiio.  They have a few DAC/amp combos that should serve you well, and a few of their products have knob controlled volume which should line up with your desires.  (Also they look quite nice these days imo.)

[unholyprfection]

22 hours ago, Dackzy said:

improve audio quality

While most of your points are correct (a good DAC will sound better than a cheap one) the actual quality of what you are playing through it can't be improved. That would be like saying I can wave my hand and make gold out of void space with 0 matter in it. The reason is because a DAC is taking the "on/off" AKA Binary and turning it into a contentious signal. A better DAC will do this with less distortion (sometimes almost none) While a low quality one will have a very hard time with this. 

22 hours ago, Dackzy said:

We also have the old headphone amp pairing, some headphones need more voltage, while others need more current. So getting an amp that gives what your headphones wants would improve the audio quality.

Not quite. The quality coming from the headphones shouldn't change because of the amount of current/voltage being applied as it is using the same hardware and getting the same signal. the amp is just boosting (amplifying) the signal. Some headphones need extra Voltage or Amperage to produce the same volume/level of sound due to the size/design of the driver and the resistance of the coil. 

 

22 hours ago, Dackzy said:

The signal in a higher quality amp will also be higher than the signal in a low-quality one

A low quality amp can produce the same signal strength. The difference here is in distortion. A high quality amp will have very little distortion at all levels but a low quality one will get worse as you up the volume.

I'm not saying a DAC or amp won't help in some situations when used correctly how ever they are overpriced and in many cases (not all) a proper EQ will give the desired effect (or close enough) for free.

 

22 hours ago, Dackzy said:

It is called amp, not AMP. If you wrote AMP

Wrote this after working all night. I was tired . I am also in the live side of things so amps are used a lot but most of what we work with is already analog. Mixing Consoles usually have a built in DAC (the good ones at least) so I don't tend to spend much time playing with them, as such my knowledge is limited how ever we did cover the fact that they don't improve the source just change it from digital to analog and in some cases alter the eq. 

My point was mostly to get the him to try out a new EQ and see if that did what he wants before spending money on something. I tend to think cheap and working thanks to student loans.

 

And ya never double up on amps that is just asking for noise and distortion lol (noise from amp 1 is amplified by amp 2 etc)

[Dackzy]

3 hours ago, unholyprfection said:

SNIP

 

if there is a less distortion in X DAC over Y DAC, then X DAC will give you better audio quality. They might get the same signal, but the signal that comes out on the other side will be higher audio quality, because of less noise and distortion. Everything isn't just about the bit rate....

I didn't mean that a higher quality amp would have more power, I meant the audio that it sends to the headphone will be higher quality compared to a lower quality one. There are plenty of examples of high-quality amps that doesn't have a lot of power.

 

A EQ can only make it sound differently, not really higher quality