Need help:

[Niksen]

Hello

I have a wireless router (an Asus RT-AC3200) placed in a corner of the house. This is resulting in a poor signal in the opposite side of the house.

Therefore, I want to move it closer to the middle of the house. But at the moment, it is also functioning as the splitter from the modem to the ethernet cables going to every room in the house.

So, a new device will ahve to take over this role. The question then is: What?

There is no need for the new device to have WiFi, I am thinking what I need is a ethernet router or a switch. But witch one, and what difference does it make in this use case?

My needs is that is should be able to handle a lot of devices using a 750Mbps down and 750Mbps up internet connection. Online gaming should also run with low latency event with heavy streaming going on.

 

 

So i need to go from this:

Modem
|
Wireless Router
/                             |                              \
Room 1                      Room 2                       Room3

 

To this:

Modem
|
[NEED HELP HERE]
/                             |                              \
Room 1                      Room 2                       Room3
                                                                      |
                                                                       Wireless Router

 

So, to sum up:

What hardware should I buy?
What difference will it make if it is a router or a switch?

Bonus question:
If more that one device in a room need wired internet, how best to split it?

[Phentos]

Get a gigabit switch. A router is unnecessary for this configuration. 

 

Most decent switches have many LAN ports on them, so you can connect several devices and use them without saturating the switch's ability to... switch your traffic.

 

If one room needs to be on its own network for whatever reason, you can create a VLAN (virtual LAN) in the switch's software.

 

On a side note, I envy your connection speeds

[knightslugger]

why not deploy APs to the rooms where you want signal? That seems like the absolute best solution to me...

[Niksen]

Thanks for the answer Phentos!

 

If I get a gigabit switch, am i right in assuming that it will never add latency no matter how many are using the internet, as long as the switches 1000Mbps is faster that the internet speed (750Mbps)?

 

No rooms need to be on a seperate network, I just might need to split the rooms single ethernet wall plug into multiple computers.

[Phentos]

2 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Thanks for the answer Phentos!

 

If I get a gigabit switch, am i right in assuming that it will never add latency no matter how many are using the internet, as long as the switches 1000Mbps is faster that the internet speed (750Mbps)?

 

No rooms need to be on a seperate network, I just might need to split the rooms single ethernet wall plug into multiple computers.

If you have several devices saturating the switch's bandwidth (will never happen unless you try very hard), then yes it will choke.

 

If you're watching Netflix on several devices at once there shouldn't be an issue unless you buy a cheap switch. 

[Niksen]

4 minutes ago, Phentos said:

If you have several devices saturating the switch's bandwidth (will never happen unless you try very hard), then yes it will choke.

 

If you're watching Netflix on several devices at once there shouldn't be an issue unless you buy a cheap switch. 

If I were to stream a lot of data on the LAN, perhaps a movie and a file transfer, and it pushed passed the gigabit mark (extrime, I know). Would it then add latency to a gaming session? What tools can handle a situation like that?

 

I have a external harddrive connected to the wireless router today. If I wanted to let that stay in place and connect it to the switch instead, would the switch then have to be a router?

Will connecting my existing router to a new router connected to the modem result in any problems?

[Phentos]

49 minutes ago, Niksen said:

If I were to stream a lot of data on the LAN, perhaps a movie and a file transfer, and it pushed passed the gigabit mark (extrime, I know). Would it then add latency to a gaming session? What tools can handle a situation like that?

 

I have a external harddrive connected to the wireless router today. If I wanted to let that stay in place and connect it to the switch instead, would the switch then have to be a router?

Will connecting my existing router to a new router connected to the modem result in any problems?

You won't saturate that with a movie or a file transfer. There could be some slowdown if you're transferring large files AND streaming very high bitrate (at least 50-75 Mbps) video over the line. You won't encounter video files like that over any streaming host. Youtube definitely will not have videos with a bitrate that high.

 

Downloading several things at once, like games and videos, along with transferring large files and streaming high bitrate video will saturate the line quite a bit though. 

 

Game latency will be unaffected through casual usage such as Netflix streaming or whatever. 4K video streaming to several devices at once will cause a small increase in latency. You won't see anything major unless you saturate the line or the switch with heavy traffic, like what I mentioned above.

 

For devices that you will anticipate heavy usage, you can trunk their connections together (switch software should enable this). Basically you logically combine multiple lines into one with trunking.

 

You can tunnel your game's connection path also if you feel that's an issue. YMMV with this.

 

As far as your external HDD is concerned, no it won't be affected, though you may consider setting up a NAS array to consolidate your storage setup.

 

Consult your ISP for an answer to your last question, though I don't really recommend connecting too many infrastructure devices together though, for a home network. Too many places for a bottleneck to happen. Plus potential for IP address conflicts if they are not configured right.

 

[brwainer]

Wait wait wait wait wait...... OP needs a router, because only one device is allowed to 'talk' directly with a modem, unless you specifically pay your ISP for multiple public IPs.... and even then the answer usually isn't to have a switch connect to the modem.

 

I didn't read the rest of the replies other than to skim and see that they were talking about a switch being connected to the modem, and not a router.

 

What you are trying to do is convert your existing router into an AP - which is fine and works perfectly well, but in doing so you need a new router. The difference is this:

Router: a Layer 3 device running NAT, firewall, DHCP, and/or DNS. May also have additional features like VPN, content filtering, etc. Will have one or more ports for WAN to connect to modem(s), and usually 4+ LAN ports. 

Switch: a Layer 2 device that only connects things at the Ethernet level, and doesn't know or care about IP. A smart or managed switch has a very weak CPU whose only function is to run the management system that allows you to control the switch chip(s); an un-managed switch lacks a CPU and the switch chip runs on auto. The exception are so-called "Layer 3 switches" which are able to perform some of the simpler functions of a router, mainly routing and DHCP.

AP: a device that converts between Ethernet and Wifi. Usually has 1 uplink port, may have downlink ports attached to an internal switch chip. The wireless usually runs in Station mode, or WDS, except for APs that are specifically Mesh APs, which will typically use a proprietary protocol. Some APs can be centrally managed by a controller. APs don't do anything regarding Layer 3, they are Layer 2 devices like a switch.

SOHO Router: Small Office/Home Office router - a device that has a router, switch, and optionally an AP combined into the same unit. Typically, all the LAN ports are connected to a switch chip, and the wireless radio is either builtin to the CPU, or is a seperate chip wired to the CPU.

 

to convert your RT-AC3200 (which is a SOHO router) into an AP, you can either  use the management UI to see if there is a specific AP mode (not all manufacturers put this in) or follow these steps that will work with literally all SOHO routers:

1. disable DHCP on the device

2. change the IP of the device to something other than .1 - for example, if it is currently 192.168.1.1, change it to 192.168.1.2

3. Only use the LAN ports going forward.

 

As for your issue with the external hard drive, you should still be able to connect it to your reprogrammed AP, you just will access it using the new IP.

 

For a new router, I would recommend you look at a Ubiquiti Edgerouter Lite (ERLite-3) because it is the cheapest router that I know of that shouldn't bottleneck the internet speeds you claim that you have (750Mbps up and down). If the 2 LAN ports are not enough, then you can connect any gigabit switch you want - even a cheap unmanaged one. Gigabit switches won't slow anything down, they run at gigabit all the time on all ports. 

 

[Niksen]

Thanks for the great answers!

 

We do like my high bitrate video files and 4k streaming. Gaming at the same time is also common in the house. And with 750/750 internet the demands to the gear can be high.

 

What about the Ubiquiti Edgerouter Lite (ERLite-3) makes it stand out? I was hoping for something with at least 5 ports (goung out to 5 seperate rooms) with maby a few for future expansion. A USB port to make a external harddrive into a NAS drive to have it with the other techical stuff would be nice too.

 

Woud QoS features do something for me?

[brwainer]

5 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Thanks for the great answers!

 

We do like my high bitrate video files and 4k streaming. Gaming at the same time is also common in the house. And with 750/750 internet the demands to the gear can be high.

 

What about the Ubiquiti Edgerouter Lite (ERLite-3) makes it stand out? I was hoping for something with at least 5 ports (goung out to 5 seperate rooms) with maby a few for future expansion. A USB port to make a external harddrive into a NAS drive to have it with the other techical stuff would be nice too.

 

Woud QoS features do something for me?

The ERLite-3 is specifically designed for high throughput - specifically, it can handle routing at 1 million packets per second. Most routers don't have too great of an issue if you just try to send lots of big packets, like streaming or large downloads, but can choke if you ask them to process many more small packets. The amount of time to process a packet is about the same regardless of how large it is, so the true strength of a router is based on how many packets can be routed per second.

 

I can almost guarantee therefore that the ERLite-3 would not bottleneck for you. The next similar routers from Ubiquiti that have a similar or faster speed are the EdgeRouter POE (ERPOE-5) which is $150, or the Edgerouter (ER-8), which costs $300. If you want to give up the guarantee of never bottlenecking, the next router I would recommend is the Mikrotik hEX, specifically the RB750Gr3 https://routerboard.com/RB750Gr3 which should be available at retail around $60. With large packets, the router has no issue handling 1Gb/s bi-directional, but with smaller packets (64 bytes) it may only be able to handle 530Mb/s (based on the ratings in that link I sent you). Most internet traffic is going to be a mixture of large and small packets, so in practice you may never notice it slowing you down. The other issue with the Mikrotik hEX is that it runs RouterOS - which is vastly more powerful than any OS that Ubiquiti makes, but is equally more daunting to set up.

[Niksen]

I might be looking at the Ubiquiti EdgeRouter POE 5.

Tho, 8 ports for future expandability would be good, and a USB port to use it as a NAS.

 

There is a Ubiquiti EdgeRouter with 8 port, but it is WILDLY expensive, and i don't know what the USB port can do.

More suggestions would be nice, to be able to compare some more.

 

New questions pop up in my head:

- Would QoS features help me any?

- Would it be a bad solution to keep my setup as is, but add a WiFi extender in the other side of the house?

[brwainer]

9 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Would QoS features help me any?

No, QOS is for dealing with latency caused by an overloaded internet connection - like if you had a download speed fo 5Mb/s, and someone starts watching netflix while you are gaming. With internet speeds as high as you said you have, QOS might actually slow things down, because it causes the router to have to do more processing of each packet.

 

9 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Would it be a bad solution to keep my setup as is, but add a WiFi extender in the other side of the house?

A wifi extender? yes, that would be a bad solution. But an AP on the other side of the house would be a very good solution, regardless of whether you moved your current router or not. A Ubiquiti Unifi AP (of whatever model and features you find appropriate) would be a good choice, or you can take any router and reprogram it to be an AP in the same manner that I described before.

[Niksen]

1 hour ago, brwainer said:

... But an AP on the other side of the house would be a very good solution, regardless of whether you moved your current router or not. ...

Do you mean, that even if I moved my router to the middle of the house, an AP would still be a good idea? Why?

Would I be seeing an aditional SSID on my devices lists of networks?

Would it be a good idea to disable WiFi on my current router?

If I have my current router and a AP both sending out WiFi signals, do i need to manually changed what to connect to?

 

Lots of questions ^^

[brwainer]

30 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Do you mean, that even if I moved my router to the middle of the house, an AP would still be a good idea? Why?

Would I be seeing an aditional SSID on my devices lists of networks?

Would it be a good idea to disable WiFi on my current router?

If I have my current router and a AP both sending out WiFi signals, do i need to manually changed what to connect to?

 

Lots of questions ^^

Well if the router was in the middle of the house, that would hopefully be sufficient on its own. But if you find that wasn't enough, then another AP would be the next step.

When you set up another AP, you can choose whether to have it use the same SSID and password, or a different one. You can use the same password on two different SSIDs, but DO NOT make the same SSID but with different passwords. If the SSIDs match, the password needs to match.

I don't see any situation where you would want to disable the wifi on your current router. Maybe in like 5 years, if you just want to use the router as a switch or maybe a router for a guest network or something like that, then you might disable the wifi because it becomes obsolete.

If the two devices have different SSIDs, your devices will swap on their own if the one they are currently on becomes very weak - but you may find that they don't swap over as aggressively as you wish them to, and end up changing it manually a lot of the time. If the two devices have the same SSID, then the same still applies, except that they should swap on their more readily. Multiple devices with the same SSID indicate to your devices that they are on the same LAN, meaning that TCP and UDP connections should be more or less uninterrupted by swapping.

[Niksen]

Sounds like just adding an AP without changing anything else will be a good way to go.

 

I'm looking at the Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC PRO. I dunno if the pro is overkill? But it looks like it has some great features like simultaneous dual-band.

[brwainer]

7 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Sounds like just adding an AP without changing anything else will be a good way to go.

 

I'm looking at the Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC PRO. I dunno if the pro is overkill? But it looks like it has some great features like simultaneous dual-band.

All AC APs do dual band simultaneously, unless someone makes one that's 5GHz only... which would be a pretty silly product in my opinion. 802.11n had APs that were 2.4GHz or 5GHz only, but i haven't seen any for AC (and there is no such thing as 2.4GHz AC - 802.11ac is 5GHz only, the 2.4GHz in an AC router is actually 802.11n)

 

Edit: What the AC Pro adds over the AC Lite is 3x3 MIMO, which means that the AP can communicate with 3 aggregated streams at once - the catch is that most client devices are only 2x2 MIMO. The pro also gives you a second ethernet port that can be used to daisy chain a device, and it uses Active POE instead of Passive POE - that won't really matter for you since you are just installing one of them.

[Niksen]

Is the pro overkill then?

 

The website says that it is a feature specific to the pro:

"Simultaneous Dual-Band Wi-Fi
The UniFi^® AP-PRO supports up to 300 Mbps, 2x2 MIMO for the 5 GHz band and up to 450 Mbps, 3x3 MIMO for the 2.4 GHz band."

[brwainer]

3 minutes ago, Niksen said:

Is the pro overkill then?

 

The website says that it is a feature specific to the pro:

"Simultaneous Dual-Band Wi-Fi
The UniFi^® AP-PRO supports up to 300 Mbps, 2x2 MIMO for the 5 GHz band and up to 450 Mbps, 3x3 MIMO for the 2.4 GHz band."

Trust me, the "simultaneous dual band" is not specific to the pro. You can buy a $100 router that does the same. The thing specific to the pro is the use of 3x3 instead of 2x2 on the 5GHz. That plus the active poe and extra ethernet port are what seperate it from the lite.

[Niksen]

And what is the "3x3" and "2x2"?

[brwainer]

5 minutes ago, Niksen said:

And what is the "3x3" and "2x2"?

Modren wireless devices us MIMO, Multiple Inputs Multiple Outputs. It means that the radio can communicate using multiple antennas at once, sending and receiving a different data stream one each one. 2x2 means 2 inputs 2 outputs, 3x3 means three inouts and three outputs. You may also see this as "Dual Chain" and "Triple Chain", especially on Mikrotik products.

 

A single data stream for AC 5GHz has a max rate of 433Mbps. If you look at the chart at the bottom of this page https://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ac/ you will see the different max soeeds for 5GHz are 867Mbps (433x2) and 1300Mbps (433x3)

[Niksen]

I think that I have reached a solution.

 

I will go for the Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC PRO, and just add it to my current setup.

My Asus RT-AC3200 does a very good job where it is now, so changing that should not be necessary.

 

Thanks a lot for the help @Phentos and @brwainer!!