Power-line networking versus wifi in an old massive building

[Dr. FunFrock]

Hi there,

 

I recently moved into a new flat and now have a 400Mbits internet connection (yay!).

Small problem is, I'm currently using the ISP-provided-All-In-One-piece-of-crap, and as I don't want to run long ugly cables all over the place, I' constantly having to deal with a mind-boggingly bad wifi. I mean, it's genuinely, authentically, complete crap like you couldn't imagine. You would probably have bought a way better router from a Kenyan guy who sells bracelets on a beach, ten years ago. But the real problem is, I never got to deal with this kind of problem because the only ISP I had used until now provided very decent equipment (yes, that is actually a thing here in France), and I don't really know what how to deal with it.

 

My appartment is quite small (50 meters squared, big cities are not cheap) and I actually only have three rooms in which I need fast networking. This means that a good WiFi acces point should be able to cover the appartment easily, and also that Power-Line adapters are also possible. I've done a bit of research and dug out two possible solutions.

 

The first one would be a set of 3 (theoretically) 1200Mbps PL-adapters, costing about 150 euros,

The second solution would be I guess a UAP-AC-Pro access point from Ubiquiti, with about the same theoretical speeds and costing... About the same 150 euros.

 

But both solutions could run into trouble and these are my concerns : 

My building is like from the 1920s and the electric wires are probably even older, so I'm afraid I might not get the best out of Powerline communications... Also, I seem to read everywhere that the real world throughputs are really far from those promised on the specs, so I wonder what kind of speeds we're really looking at here...

As for the WiFi, I'm quite concerned with the massive 30 cm (10 inches if you're using the wrong system) thick concrete wall that separates my room from the rest of the appartment. Would it really slow the WiFi reception even with the PoA and computer only 3-5 meters (do the conversion yourself or use the correct system) apart from each other ?

 

In the end, given that both cost about the same, which one do you think would be the fastest ? Or would both be crap and my only solution be Ethernet cables ? 

 

Thanks in advance guys !

[kerradeph]

30cm  is actually closer to 12 Inches. 

 

Is it possible to put the AP parallel to the wall of wifi doom? If not, I would say if you can get something that will run on 2.4GHz you would have slower but stable connection in your room. Powerline even in optimal conditions is rather disappointing. 

 

For the range you are covering the UAP-AC-LR might be better although that runs on 5GHz so you'll run into connection issues with that. If you have to run 5GHz, put it around 2-5 feet from the wall hopefully that will be enough signal to punch through the wall without the wall interfering with the signal around the rest of the apartment. Alternatively you could look at getting the UAP-AC-LR or UAP-AC-Lite and get something like a nanostation M2 and you set up in access point mode and point at your room, the extra power and directional antenna might help.

 

EDIT I'll break it down a little. 1-3 is cheapest to most expensive. This is entirely from my research and experience so there may be better options out there.

 

1 UAP-AC-LR placed a few feet from the wall and hope for the best. 

2 UAP-AC-LR/lite + nano station M2 in AP mode broadcasting directional wifi through the wall to your computer.

3 UAP-AC-LR/lite + Nanostation M9 bridged to another nanostation M9 in your room which is then wired to your computer or a cheap AP for clean wireless inside the chamber of wifi negation.

[SlipperyPete]

12 minutes ago, Dr. FunFrock said:

`snip`

so powerlines are an interesting thing. you will not get "full" Ethernet speeds. you are more looking at max-ish wifi speeds but more consistent. also make sure that the building is all on the same breaker/fuse/circuit.

[haloharry97]

With power line the max speed i got from tp-link av2000 is 160Mbps I have 200Mbps isp from one room below me, but i get 450+Mbps with wifi, so if you want speed go for wifi but if you want lower latency go for powerline. my home is from 1950 or even older.

[kerradeph]

5 minutes ago, SlipperyPete said:

so powerlines are an interesting thing. you will not get "full" Ethernet speeds. you are more looking at max-ish wifi speeds but more consistent. also make sure that the building is all on the same breaker/fuse/circuit.

They don't "Have to be" on the same circuit, they just should be if you want anywhere near consistent internet. Overall I would say a pair of nanostation M9s would put them in a similar connection state outside of the bridge but with far better connection over the bridge. They won't get full speeds but it will be solid at least.

[Dr. FunFrock]

3 minutes ago, kerradeph said:

Very interesting things.

I could put an access point next to the wall, I just can't move the actual router cause the geniuses from the ISP thought it was a brilliant idead to actually put the TV decoder in the same device as the router/AP/cube of poo.

 

Are you saying that the UAP-AC-LR actually has better range than the Pro ? I don't need that much range, 50 meters squared is not big it means that if the AP was in the center, no point in the appartment would be more than 8-10 meters away (30 feet or so I think). What I'm looking for is more speed and raw power ! The internet connection is fast but I'd also like something near Gigabit to transfer files to my NAS (it's nothing like a fancy fast NAS anyway though)

[Dr. FunFrock]

8 minutes ago, haloharry97 said:

With power line the max speed i got from tp-link av2000 is 160Mbps I have 200Mbps isp from one room below me, but i get 450+Mbps with wifi, so if you want speed go for wifi but if you want lower latency go for powerline. my home is from 1950 or even older.

Thanks for that clarification, then I guess I'm going for the wifi because I download stuff in 4K and everything but I don't actually do a lot of online gaming, and it's mostly minecraft. And even that is on some rare occasions, I just love Kerbal Space Program too much to have free time to spare for any other game

[kerradeph]

If you want high speeds, I would suggest clustering everything on a wired network that needs the speed. Like for me I'm dealing with something similar where the modem/TV decoder/everything is upstairs so I just run a wireless bridge from the modem abomination to my stuff downstairs and then I've got all of that on a gigabit network. How much stuff do you need pulling the full 400Mb/s over wireless?

[kerradeph]

http://imgur.com/a/J0SdD

 

That's the setup I use at home. I've tweaked it and I consistently read ~350-400Mbs burst throughput. Although I don't have to punch through a wall like that so that lets me use 5GHz gear rather than 2.4GHz or 900MHz stuff. Currently Ubiquiti is supposed to be working on an airmax 2 line which will have similar models in the 2.4GHz range which would suit you really well.

[Dr. FunFrock]

16 minutes ago, kerradeph said:

If you want high speeds, I would suggest clustering everything on a wired network that needs the speed. Like for me I'm dealing with something similar where the modem/TV decoder/everything is upstairs so I just run a wireless bridge from the modem abomination to my stuff downstairs and then I've got all of that on a gigabit network. How much stuff do you need pulling the full 400Mb/s over wireless?

Well I would like stuff pulling even more than that ideally, but basically not to a lot of stuff and nothing really far away, my desktop computer mainly, and eventually to my room mate's stuff in her room.

The appartment is organized around a central corridor so I was planning to put the access point there, so really nothing would be far from it, that concrete wall is my only concern, I wonder exactly how much of the signal it would absorb.

I sometimes manage to connect to the router's 5GHz antenna and pull some 350Mbits on average but I usually loose connection after a few minutes and switch back on the 2.4Ghz with speeds anywhere between 5.5 (most of the time) and 50-ish Mbits. Doesn't solve the problem if if I put different SSIDs, it actually makes it worse because the computer doesn't have anything to switch to when it loses connection.

 

Forgot to mention, but there is actually a door in this wall so that I can enter my bedroom (really well thought indeed). Would it make any sensible difference if I aligned my computer, door and access point on the same line (that would be selfish) ?

 

Also, your stuff rocks kerradeph, although I think we might not have the same budget here

[kerradeph]

It's not so much that the concrete will absorb a certain amount of the signal, it's that it will pretty much randomly reflect the signal around. At times you'll get a nice connection and then you'll have a terrible connection. 2.4GHz is better for going through things in the way, 900Mhz is exceptionally good at passing through obstacles. The main problem is that most of the newer protocols are using 5GHz as it's easier to push really high speeds through that. So if you want to use the older protocols on the more durable frequencies then you're going to get lower speeds. 

 

That's the logic behind my recommendations. the nanostation M2 uses 2.4GHz, can get reasonable speeds, and can be set in access point mode so you can connect your computer to us. If you were fine going with a dedicated device at either side you can get similar speeds to the M2 but using 900Mhz by using the nanostation M9.

 

Is it possible for you to make a really basic drawing of what your apartment layout looks like? Mainly to know where this wall is for possible options to deal with it.

[Dr. FunFrock]

Hmmm, I see the point but I'm quite concerned with the speeds I could get in 900Mhz or 2.4G given the catastrophic speeds of the actual router on that bandwith... Ubiquiti might do better though

 

I got something that might not be actually 'very basic' but it's all i have

http://imgur.com/XBAZd4F

 

Green cross is my dekstop, red one is where the modem is and in blue the general area where I intended to put the AP initially.

My room's wall is concrete, but not the one of the room where the modem is. So as you can see, both doors are aligned with my PC so I think a well focused beam could do the trick.

 

Btw if that's of any importance, on the PC-end i got a dedicated ASUS PCie AC-68 (that's 1300Mbps on 5Ghz and 600 on 2.4 according to the specs). So I think even if I could get a decent 2.4Ghz nearing 500Mbps or so I would be able to max my internet connection. 

 

Thanks for all your advices by the way

[Dr. FunFrock]

I've looked up the M2 and M9 nanostations and these are not cheap at all, especially if I have to combine ai pair of them with other devices...

 

Given that my place is quite small I would definitely prefer a one-thing solution, and if I have to spend a little more why not then wait a couple months for that new Unifi AP HD because these specs, damn, they look attractive...

[kerradeph]

Yeah. for now looking at the AP alone and test speeds, but the various bridges are an option if you are having significant issues. Considering the doors line up like that you might actually do fairly well as long as you don't move your computer.

[JTB7]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I would stay away from the powerline, I tried these in my house, which is about 20 years old, and the speed was very slow compaired to what I have now with just a USB wifi card.

[Dr. FunFrock]

23 hours ago, JTB7 said:

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I would stay away from the powerline, I tried these in my house, which is about 20 years old, and the speed was very slow compaired to what I have now with just a USB wifi card.

Well this does help, the point of this post was to determine which of wifi or powerline would be best in my case, so thanks for your contribution

 

I'll definitely check the wifi option. I think most of my current problems really come from the crappy hardware inside my isp provided router. 

BTW can you imagine that this thing is actually so shitty that the pages on the network configuration interface take up to one minute to load, and then whenever you change something ; well it just crashes and reboot. Made by geniuses I tell ya.

[Dr. FunFrock]

So, time for an update !

 

I received my UAP-AC-PRO today aaaaaaand... 

Spoiler

It's fast !!!!

 

5GHz seems to punch through the one concrete wall just fine.

 

I get speeds up to 900mbps in my room, average is around 700-ish and it never droped below 550 so far. Given that my internet connection is 400mbps I'm able to max it out all the time and that was all I expected. On the NAS sides I get transfer speeds very slightly below those I would get on a wired connection but actually running a cable and unplugging it when I'm done just isn't worth the trouble anymore, so that's a very good point.

 

When I sit next to the access point with my very recent and decent laptop I have monitored some (rare) peaks over 1Gbps and that almost seems unbeleivable to me. In the third room which is a bit further away from the AP I'm still able to max out the internet connection although transfers to/from the NAS are worth making the trip to the living room. Latency seems to be 1 to 3 ms higher than with a wired connection.

 

So I would say that this is pretty darn good overall. Now, I know that this may be a totally overkill solution for such a small space to cover, but I definitely don't regret my purchase.

Thanks for all your advice guys !