Does/can ram store permanent data?

[Nipplemilk909]

Hi so I'm in a nukeing a cleaning spree and want to get everything cleaned in my machines, nukeing a hard drive is cool and all but I dont think it completely cleans everything tho does it ? Say some malware found its self in ram. Can I permanently store in there ? 

[Mr.Humble]

RAM is volatile memory. It flushes all data temporarily stored on it upon powering down.

[Nipplemilk909]

2 minutes ago, vojta.pokorny said:

RAM is volatile memory. It flushes all data temporarily stored on it upon powering down.

I read somewhere it also had non-volatile mem

[Mira Yurizaki]

RAM is volatile memory, meaning it loses its contents over time. The memory cells are made of capacitors, which discharge over time. However, you can slow the rate of discharge by making the RAM really cold, like you need to spray liquid nitrogen on it. But for all intents and purposes, it's instant for most use cases.

 

Even if data was stored in there, the system doesn't actually care. On boot, everything is effectively a clean slate. It just overwrites anything that was previously there.

 

1 minute ago, Nipplemilk909 said:

I read somewhere it also had non-volatile mem

Core memory is non-volatile, but that's been out of use since the 1980s at most.

[Sakkura]

10 minutes ago, Nipplemilk909 said:

I read somewhere it also had non-volatile mem

There are many different types of memory. Some are volatile, some are not.

 

DRAM, which is what we currently use for system RAM and the VRAM on graphics cards, is volatile.

 

NAND flash memory, which we use for SSDs, microSD cards etc. is not volatile.

 

The upcoming 3DXPoint memory is also not volatile.

[Nipplemilk909]

6 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

RAM is volatile memory, meaning it loses its contents over time. The memory cells are made of capacitors, which discharge over time. However, you can slow the rate of discharge by making the RAM really cold, like you need to spray liquid nitrogen on it. But for all intents and purposes, it's instant for most use cases.

 

Even if data was stored in there, the system doesn't actually care. On boot, everything is effectively a clean slate. It just overwrites anything that was previously there.

 

Core memory is non-volatile, but that's been out of use since the 1980s at most.

I feel I can see the day where script writers make it so that volatile mem functions like non , then again I don't know the actually hardware to software design of ram 

[Mira Yurizaki]

3 minutes ago, Nipplemilk909 said:

I feel I can see the day where script writers make it so that volatile mem functions like non , then again I don't know the actually hardware to software design of ram 

Hardware wise, you cannot make volatile RAM become non-volatile unless you expose it to really cold temperatures (and even then, "non-volatile" is relative). However, you can use RAM like storage, it's called a RAM Disk. Except most implementations either require you to set it up in the OS on every boot or require an add-on card so it can be continuously powered. At which point it can't even be used as system memory.

 

Otherwise no, software cannot fix hardware deficiencies no matter what Project Managers tell you.

[ionbasa]

On a basic level, RAM is volatile. It'll erase as soon as power is lost. Although, data can take a while to decay. Its been studied that such decay is in the order of magnitude of a few milliseconds.

See: http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/99906/can-ram-retain-data-after-removal

Its been answered before, and there's a study you can brush up on at: http://www.pdl.cmu.edu/PDL-FTP/NVM/dram-retention_isca13.pdf

 

A shutdown of a PC and then restarting it is effective.

12 minutes ago, Nipplemilk909 said:

I feel I can see the day where script writers make it so that volatile mem functions like non , then again I don't know the actually hardware to software design of ram 

In RAM, No.

In EFI, BIOS, Firmware, or on a boot loader: sure.

https://www.blackhat.com/presentations/bh-usa-07/Heasman/Presentation/bh-usa-07-heasman.pdf

http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/79747/besides-mbr-bios-is-it-possible-for-a-rootkit-to-stay-persistant-after-a-form

[Sakkura]

18 hours ago, ionbasa said:

On a basic level, RAM is volatile. It'll erase as soon as power is lost.

Please stop spreading misinformation. It depends entirely on the type of RAM.

[ionbasa]

46 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

Please stop spreading misinformation. It depends entirely on the type of RAM.

The study I linked to wasn't enough for you? Please explain and counter my argument with verifiable proof. I provided links and sources for my statements. This discussion was strictly about System Memory or DRAM.

 

We could talk about, SRAM, RRAM, and NVRAM (non Volatile RAM), but those aren't used strictly for System Memory.

NAND Flash is actually NVRAM and the same goes for 3DxPoint

 

We don't use these technologies for 'system memory', which the OP was referring too.

[Sakkura]

6 minutes ago, ionbasa said:

The study I linked to wasn't enough for you? Please explain and counter my argument with verifiable proof. I provided links and sources for my statements. This discussion was strictly about System Memory or DRAM.

 

We could talk about, SRAM, RRAM, and NVRAM (non Volatile RAM), but those aren't used strictly for System Memory.

NAND Flash is actually NVRAM and the same goes for 3DxPoint

 

We don't use these technologies for 'system memory', which the OP was referring too.

This is about RAM in general. OP even said he heard about non-volatile RAM. Regardless, even if you narrow it to just system memory, there are still NVDIMMs that perform that exact function. That will only become more common with the upcoming 3DXPoint products.

[ionbasa]

5 minutes ago, Sakkura said:

This is about RAM in general. OP even said he heard about non-volatile RAM. Regardless, even if you narrow it to just system memory, there are still NVDIMMs that perform that exact function. That will only become more common with the upcoming 3DXPoint products.

NVDIMMs are only supported on Server Motherboards at the moment (high end ones) from the likes of Tyan, SuperMicro, etc.

 

Don't be a dick. You knew what the OP was referring to, this just serves to make things more confusing. No laptop or home PC currently supports NVDIMMs or 3D xPoint. Also, the OP talked about wiping and cleaning his system. Again, we can get all technical and anal about how we talk about memory and the different types, but that doesn't help the OP in any way, especially if you look through his other threads.

[Sakkura]

1 hour ago, ionbasa said:

NVDIMMs are only supported on Server Motherboards at the moment (high end ones) from the likes of Tyan, SuperMicro, etc.

 

Don't be a dick. You knew what the OP was referring to, this just serves to make things more confusing. No laptop or home PC currently supports NVDIMMs or 3D xPoint. Also, the OP talked about wiping and cleaning his system. Again, we can get all technical and anal about how we talk about memory and the different types, but that doesn't help the OP in any way, especially if you look through his other threads.

The system memory in server motherboards is still system memory. And it's still RAM as well.

 

You are the one spreading misinformation here, creating confusion for OP and others.

 

And all the new 200 series chipsets do support 3DXPoint.

[AshleyAshes]

...The OP is -clearly- not using NVDIMM, you're just trying to further confuse the OP by arguing 'Well, TECHNICALLY'.  This thread is clearly about system memory for consumer systems

[ionbasa]

8 hours ago, Sakkura said:

The system memory in server motherboards is still system memory. And it's still RAM as well.

 

You are the one spreading misinformation here, creating confusion for OP and others.

 

And all the new 200 series chipsets do support 3DXPoint.

I'm going to have to disagree. At this present moment in time, there's no 3DxPoint DIMMS on the market. Please link me to one? Secondly, Current gen Optane SSDs are not DIMM Based, they're PCIe based in a M.2 Form Factor:

Intel released this just a few days before CES:

 

 

 

So, Where's the 3DxPoint DIMMS you keep talking about? Check here: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/16/intel_optane_xpoint_dimms_and_ssds_delayed/

They got pushed back because the AISC quality made them unsuitable.

 

We may not see them in production until 2018:

Quote

We are hearing that the first version of XPoint chips can only be used for SSDs. A second, more developed version is needed to make XPoint for DIMMs. That means XPoint DIMMs may not appear until 2018, which would give competing non-volatile DIMMs more time within which to establish themselves. If true, this means Diablo and Netlist get more breathing space.

 

So, DIMM versions of 3D xPoint isn't even available until Q2 per:

Quote

An Intel spokesperson said: "3D XPoint technology is in production and Intel has early samples with customers. Intel’s CEO recently stated during the Q2 earnings call, Optane SSDs will start to ship at the end of this year with 3D XPoint DIMMs following next year. We have not shared details on 2nd generation 3D XPoint technology."

 

Both those quotes are from the article I linked and taken from an Intel spokesperson at IDF. We wont see DIMMs until Gen 2.

 

So, I stand by original claim, at the moment, until Q2 2018.

[Sakkura]

9 hours ago, ionbasa said:

I'm going to have to disagree. At this present moment in time, there's no 3DxPoint DIMMS on the market. Please link me to one? Secondly, Current gen Optane SSDs are not DIMM Based, they're PCIe based in a M.2 Form Factor:

I didn't say they were Optane NVDIMMs on the market. I just made clear that you were wrong about there being no support for 3DXPoint. There is support for it, and on regular consumer boards at that.

 

NVDIMMs of other types are on the market right now. I already gave you a link to the completion of the JEDEC specification for NVDIMMs that work in regular DDR4 slots. I never claimed they used 3DXPoint. So please stop spreading this misinformation.

[Master Disaster]

On 16/01/2017 at 11:40 PM, M.Yurizaki said:

RAM is volatile memory, meaning it loses its contents over time. The memory cells are made of capacitors, which discharge over time. However, you can slow the rate of discharge by making the RAM really cold, like you need to spray liquid nitrogen on it. But for all intents and purposes, it's instant for most use cases.

 

Even if data was stored in there, the system doesn't actually care. On boot, everything is effectively a clean slate. It just overwrites anything that was previously there.

 

Core memory is non-volatile, but that's been out of use since the 1980s at most.

Modern UEFI systems use NVRAM to store UEFI settings as EEPROM doesn't have the capacity to store everything but for the purpose of OPs question that's not strictly relevant.