Cinema Cameras

[mbryant]

I'm reaching here... but I'm hoping that some of you out in Linus Land have experience with cinema cameras. I'm shooting a short film soon and I'd rather not shoot on our DSLR's. I'd love to have the Dynamic Range of a cinema camera as well as shoot in 4K (probably will be finishing in 2K) AND 10bit RAW (or C LOG) to top it all off. I've been considering the Canon C100 MarkII (which I know is only 1080p but it's still a 4K sensor) I've also considered the Black Magic Ursa MIni, RED Scarlet if I can afford it, and possibly an Arri Alexa. My concern with RAW is the workflow but I won't really be hard pressed for time in post production but since all of these cameras either shoot to CFAST or SSD's I will also have to rent those and my only solution is to dump footage on set. Can anyone help me choose? At least objectively, I know it's ultimately up to me to choose I just need help. 

[Paralectic]

The Red Dragon is one hell of a camera, if it's possible for you to rent one that'd do perfect.

Okay for an indie film it's overkill.

[mbryant]

2 hours ago, Paralectic said:

The Red Dragon is one hell of a camera, if it's possible for you to rent one that'd do perfect.

Okay for an indie film it's overkill.

yeah, but It's really only in the running if I can afford to rent it, one place I'm looking at is $600 for 4 days just for the body. 

[ALwin]

Let me get back to you on this, right now I am filming.  With my Sony FS7.

 

 

 

[ALwin]

OK I'm on a short break now, so let me quickly run over some points:

• Do you want to buy or rent?
• Renting will give you access to perhaps higher end gear however unless you are very productive with it, the cumulative amount you spend on renting may end up being the cost of a decent medium range camera (or even higher) in the end.
• Buying, it is definitely going to be a big initial investment, however if you work professionally even as a freelancer you can recover the cost over time.
• Having a camera is not simply enough, you need to think about all the extra accessories you may need depending on your filming style.  Audio, camera movement and motion control tools, assistants, filters, makeup artists, etc....

 

Feel free to message me or post more comments on this tread and I am happy to help you figure out what path would be good for starting out.

[mbryant]

24 minutes ago, ALwin said:

OK I'm on a short break now, so let me quickly run over some points:

• Do you want to buy or rent?
• Renting will give you access to perhaps higher end gear however unless you are very productive with it, the cumulative amount you spend on renting may end up being the cost of a decent medium range camera (or even higher) in the end.
• Buying, it is definitely going to be a big initial investment, however if you work professionally even as a freelancer you can recover the cost over time.
• Having a camera is not simply enough, you need to think about all the extra accessories you may need depending on your filming style.  Audio, camera movement and motion control tools, assistants, filters, makeup artists, etc....

 

Feel free to message me or post more comments on this tread and I am happy to help you figure out what path would be good for starting out.

Sorry should have been clear. I'm renting for now. Once I get the budget totally figured out I'm going to allow my DP to rig the camera as they see fit of course all final decisions will be made by me. I'd assume we will only be renting a shoulder rig as we already have a glide cam and tripod. I wish it were worth it to rent 2 cameras before the start of production BUT I don't have that kind of money. 

 

EDIT: A big plus for the black magic URSA mini is the LCD since it's large I'd really only need to rent one monitor 

[ALwin]

Well the Ursa Mini should be a good camera, but I recommend waiting for a while longer until they get all the major kinks worked out if they haven't already.

 

Sony cameras are another option, so are Canon and Panasonic though sometimes they can cost more.  What about the Black Magic pocket cinema camera?

 

It's hard to tell you what camera you should get because we don't know your filmmaking style and each manufacturer has their own quirks with the cameras they produce.

[mbryant]

8 hours ago, ALwin said:

Well the Ursa Mini should be a good camera, but I recommend waiting for a while longer until they get all the major kinks worked out if they haven't already.

 

Sony cameras are another option, so are Canon and Panasonic though sometimes they can cost more.  What about the Black Magic pocket cinema camera?

 

It's hard to tell you what camera you should get because we don't know your filmmaking style and each manufacturer has their own quirks with the cameras they produce.

Yeah well I think I've decided I want a 4K sensor I know the C100 only shoots in 1080 but it does have a 4k sensor. I think I've whittled it down to the c100 or Ursa mini. 

[ALwin]

8 hours ago, mbryant said:

Yeah well I think I've decided I want a 4K sensor I know the C100 only shoots in 1080 but it does have a 4k sensor. I think I've whittled it down to the c100 or Ursa mini. 

If it's only between these two cameras, if you don't care about filming in 4K resolution I would recommend the C100 mk II but know that I don't think Canon will ever unlock 4K recording in this specific model.  They might in a future C100 mk III.  Canon hardware will be a bit more reliable than the Ursa Mini.

 

If you need the capability to record 4K video, than get the Ursa Mini but again choose wisely.  The 4K version has less dynamic range and slightly less capability than the 4.6K sensor version.

 

 

Between the C100 mk II, the Ursa Mini 4K and 4.6K version:

1. Widest dynamic range and probably widest latitude: Ursa Mini 4.6K which has 15 stops of dynamic range, the C100 and Ursa Mini 4K version have about the same 12 stops of dynamic range.
2. Cheaper memory cards: Canon C100 mk II
3. Most built-in features: probably the C100 mk II
4. Image quality and resolution: probably Ursa Mini 4.6
5. Slow motion frame rates: Ursa Mini 4K and 4.6K  (e.g. 1080p 120fps in windowed mode)
6. Better codecs: Ursa Mini again, ProRes and RAW
7. Hardware design or modularity: this is tough.  On one hand the C100 mk II already comes with a top handle with a shotgun mic holder and seems to provide better access to the XLR ports and adjustment controls for the audio inputs.  But remove the top handle and the XLR ports are gone.  Additionally the C100 gives you quick access to quite a number of settings via the multiple buttons and dials on the camera body, but the Ursa Mini's menu system is very simplified and perhaps well organised that would let you change something quickly even with the lack of on-body buttons and dials.
8. Both types of cameras will need a few extra accessories to make them run&gun shoulder mountable.

Since I've never really used either camera before, besides testing them out once or twice at the rental shop, I can't say much more about their pros and cons.

 

One thing I will say about both the C100 and Ursa Mini, compared to my FS7 and perhaps other Canon, Panasonic, etc. cameras.  I don't think the C100 or Ursa Mini comes with an internal memory or a slot for a small memory card to save custom profiles/settings for the cameras.  This is what I love about my Sony, I can store camera profiles, 3D LUT files, etc. on a SD card so that I don't have to go into the menu to adjust several items if I need to change the camera's setup for a different style of shooting.

[mbryant]

4 hours ago, ALwin said:

If it's only between these two cameras, if you don't care about filming in 4K resolution I would recommend the C100 mk II but know that I don't think Canon will ever unlock 4K recording in this specific model.  They might in a future C100 mk III.  Canon hardware will be a bit more reliable than the Ursa Mini.

 

If you need the capability to record 4K video, than get the Ursa Mini but again choose wisely.  The 4K version has less dynamic range and slightly less capability than the 4.6K sensor version.

 

 

Between the C100 mk II, the Ursa Mini 4K and 4.6K version:

1. Widest dynamic range and probably widest latitude: Ursa Mini 4.6K, the C100 and Ursa Mini 4K version have about the same 12 stops of dynamic range.
2. Cheaper memory cards: Canon C100 mk II
3. Most built-in features: probably the C100 mk II
4. Image quality and resolution: probably Ursa Mini 4.6
5. Slow motion frame rates: Ursa Mini 4K and 4.6K  (e.g. 1080p 120fps in windowed mode)
6. Better codecs: Ursa Mini again, ProRes and RAW
7. Hardware design or modularity: this is tough.  On one hand the C100 mk II already comes with a top handle with a shotgun mic holder and seems to provide better access to the XLR ports and adjustment controls for the audio inputs.  But remove the top handle and the XLR ports are gone.  Additionally the C100 gives you quick access to quite a number of settings via the multiple buttons and dials on the camera body, but the Ursa Mini's menu system is very simplified and perhaps well organised that would let you change something quickly even with the lack of on-body buttons and dials.
8. Both types of cameras will need a few extra accessories to make them run&gun shoulder mountable.

Since I've never really used either camera before, besides testing them out once or twice at the rental shop, I can't say much more about their pros and cons.

 

One thing I will say about both the C100 and Ursa Mini, compared to my FS7 and perhaps other Canon, Panasonic, etc. cameras.  I don't think the C100 or Ursa Mini comes with an internal memory or a slot for a small memory card to save custom profiles/settings for the cameras.  This is what I love about my Sony, I can store camera profiles, 3D LUT files, etc. on a SD card so that I don't have to go into the menu to adjust several items if I need to change the camera's setup for a different style of shooting.

C100 fits the bill I think, save for the fact I want to shoot in 4K, it also needs fewer accessories to get up and running, unlike the Ursa Mini the C100 has interchangeable batteries without the need for an adapter. As for the codecs, codecs aren't enough to make me go one way or another. I've been blown away by both the Ursa Mini and C100 but I think the C100 is my choice, I'll still be doing some research and my consider the FS7 assuming it doesn't add too much to my cost. 

[ALwin]

8 hours ago, mbryant said:

snip

Yeah it does appear that the C100 may need fewer accessories to get it up and running, however V-lock and G-lock batteries are sort of an industry standard when it comes to higher end cameras.  They are also designed to be able to provide power to a variety of accessories at the same time as powering the camera, if the battery comes with D-tap ports and can also power accessories that can mount a V/Gold lock adapter.  Which makes them a lot more interchangeable and usable across a variety of gear.

 

What I mainly don't like about V/Gold lock batteries is their size compared to the more compact Canon and Sony batteries.

 

When it comes to codec and RAW capability, think about the latitude that the recorded footage provides for post processing.  Looking at the C100 mk II's specs on B&H, it records at maximum 35Mb/s.  I also don't see it mentioned anywhere that the C100 mk II can record 10-bit 422.