Externalizing descrite GPUs..

[Looniper]

I would love to see this done, if not by Linus, by someone... just to prove it.

GPUs keep getting bigger and running hotter while the trend for case designs is to be smaller.

A PCI-E extender cable.
Parts from old PC case including the 'slot' segment so you have a backing plate and a point to screw the GPU down to.
A few fans and a power cable extension.

= able to use a 24" long double-wide GPU with a computer in a SFF micro ATX cube or similar.

Also, the overclocking potential of the GPU could be seriously boosted by creative cooling methods for the housing.

....
Thoughts?

[KezzaMcFezza]

2 minutes ago, Looniper said:

I would love to see this done, if not by Linus, by someone... just to prove it.

GPUs keep getting bigger and running hotter while the trend for case designs is to be smaller.

A PCI-E extender cable.
Parts from old PC case including the 'slot' segment so you have a backing plate and a point to screw the GPU down to.
A few fans and a power cable extension.

= able to use a 24" long double-wide GPU with a computer in a SFF micro ATX cube or similar.

Also, the overclocking potential of the GPU could be seriously boosted by creative cooling methods for the housing.

....
Thoughts?

Or just water cool it? but yea that would be cool too!

[givegomezthegun]

In my observation, graphics cards are getting cooler and smaller.. And any somewhat recent video card to come out, I've yet to see one where your overclock is limited by thermals.. Other than doing something different and possibly interesting to a small number of people, there's no real reason to bring your graphics card outside your case.

[Looniper]

Liquid cooling works great... but imagine being able to solder your own TIM around it and slapping on 4 or more blocks and cooling out multiple radiators..
Each with a different color fluorescence in the liquid .. all kinds of wild options.

[Fgtfv567]

You want to connect a GPU externally to the case using a (max) 30 cm riser cable? Sounds good on paper, but in practice I don't know how well it'd work.

For one, it's not just the riser cable. You still need to connect any extra 6 and 8 pin cables from the PSU. Not to mention you need a hole big enough to fit all those cables through

Second, are you going to enclose the GPU with some sort of metal case? Leave it out in the open?

Third, what if you have to move your PC around? Be kind of difficult with a GPU just hanging out the back of it...

Fourth, unless you're running some hot ass CPU like a 9590, what's the point of having your GPU dangle out like that? Kinda sounds like something watercooling would take care of really easily

[tt2468]

15 minutes ago, Looniper said:

I would love to see this done, if not by Linus, by someone... just to prove it.

GPUs keep getting bigger and running hotter while the trend for case designs is to be smaller.

A PCI-E extender cable.
Parts from old PC case including the 'slot' segment so you have a backing plate and a point to screw the GPU down to.
A few fans and a power cable extension.

= able to use a 24" long double-wide GPU with a computer in a SFF micro ATX cube or similar.

Also, the overclocking potential of the GPU could be seriously boosted by creative cooling methods for the housing.

....
Thoughts?

The company that I work for is actually giving us a device to try out that does exactly what you are talking about. I suppose I could post some benchmarks when it is delivered. Check out cyclone.com. They are the ones who sell pcie expansion chassis.

[Looniper]

13 minutes ago, givegomezthegun said:

In my observation, graphics cards are getting cooler and smaller.. And any somewhat recent video card to come out, I've yet to see one where your overclock is limited by thermals.. Other than doing something different and possibly interesting to a small number of people, there's no real reason to bring your graphics card outside your case.

From what I've seen cards are introduced Larger, but production runs make them smaller as that model 'ages.'

 

 

980TI ^
compared to

960 (mini)^

If the next product series brings significantly more cores etc.. it will be as large as, if not larger than the first run of 980TIs.
But a few years after, we'll see them reduced to mini, low-profile, etc models and the current model at that time even larger.(baring some major advancement in the manufacturing methods)


You are correct on overclocking, to a point.
The manufacturers use a default multiplier somewhat below the optimal operating point to reduce return rates.
So overclocking to that point has little impact, but once you start moving past the optimum, heat becomes a real issue.
And once you hit the hard limit on the multiplier, you can only push more power through the device, and that is all about heat.

-- well okay, almost all. You could flood the conductive material to the point it 'leaks' to cause a short.

[Sors]

AMD already announced their standard for external GPU enclosures using Thunderbolt 3, Nvidia wouldn't want to stay behind for long.  So I think in a few years we'll have the option for external GPUs in most PCs.  

 

Maybe even new smaller PC cases that doesn't include space for the video cards.

[Looniper]

12 minutes ago, Fgtfv567 said:

You want to connect a GPU externally to the case using a (max) 30 cm riser cable? Sounds good on paper, but in practice I don't know how well it'd work.

For one, it's not just the riser cable. You still need to connect any extra 6 and 8 pin cables from the PSU. Not to mention you need a hole big enough to fit all those cables through

Second, are you going to enclose the GPU with some sort of metal case? Leave it out in the open?

Third, what if you have to move your PC around? Be kind of difficult with a GPU just hanging out the back of it...

Fourth, unless you're running some hot ass CPU like a 9590, what's the point of having your GPU dangle out like that? Kinda sounds like something watercooling would take care of really easily

Riser cables can be any length (tho the nature of the signal would cause degradation after a few feet, but for this purpose, 24" would probably be enough.

Yes, an external housing is necessary, that was my mention of using an old PC case's 'slot' segment.  If you had a larger tower case to work with, you could probably reshape that into a complete enclosure by itself -- but you would want to coat the interior with a non-conductive paint or something to be safe.

24" power cable extension for a PCI-E card.. $3

Having to cut holes in the case and so forth is why I haven't tried it myself.. I don't have the tools and honestly, I'm not skilled with that sort of thing.
 

[Looniper]

14 minutes ago, Kyle Manning said:

The company that I work for is actually giving us a device to try out that does exactly what you are talking about. I suppose I could post some benchmarks when it is delivered. Check out cyclone.com. They are the ones who sell pcie expansion chassis.

I would love to know how well it works out.
Sors says AMD is working on the same concept.. so I guess it wasn't so strange an idea as I thought.

Imagine.. laptops using full size, full power descrite GPUs externally..

[tt2468]

5 minutes ago, Looniper said:

I would love to know how well it works out.
Sors says AMD is working on the same concept.. so I guess it wasn't so strange an idea as I thought.

Imagine.. laptops using full size, full power descrite GPUs externally..

Well, people have been doing this already, but have been running their cards at x1 speed, which, as you would guess, is not very fast.

[Looniper]

1 minute ago, Kyle Manning said:

Well, people have been doing this already, but have been running their cards at x1 speed, which, as you would guess, is not very fast.

Well searching for my ex's laptop and dealing with the graphics limitations (and that being such a major problem with them in general) lead me to the notion, and I couldn't find any reference to anyone having actually done it.

The new thunderbolt may open a lot of doors to things like this..

I can imagine cases and motherboards made, as Sors suggests, without space allocated for a GPU.  It would allow for more efficient CPU-specific cooling, fewer case fans(less noise), and shifting that to a separate case for the GPU allows for better (distant) placement nearer a monitor and further from the user (sound again) ...

I can't really think of a reason not to do it, except the simplicity of having one large case to move over a smaller pair.. but as I mentioned above, it is the same as having an external hdd or optical drive with your pc.

[Fgtfv567]

19 minutes ago, Looniper said:

Riser cables can be any length (tho the nature of the signal would cause degradation after a few feet, but for this purpose, 24" would probably be enough.

Yes, an external housing is necessary, that was my mention of using an old PC case's 'slot' segment.  If you had a larger tower case to work with, you could probably reshape that into a complete enclosure by itself -- but you would want to coat the interior with a non-conductive paint or something to be safe.

24" power cable extension for a PCI-E card.. $3

Having to cut holes in the case and so forth is why I haven't tried it myself.. I don't have the tools and honestly, I'm not skilled with that sort of thing.
 

No they can't, 30cm max if you don't want to see any type of signal degradation. 24 inches is 60 cm, so max for you is roughly a foot.

 

Slot segment? What the 7 lanes on the back of the case? I don't follow.

 

Uh...OK, guess it's good that they're that cheap, doesn't answer the third prompt though...

 

Yeah, cutting holes in the case would be a pain in the ass, haven't had experience with it myself, still doesn't answer the fourth prompt though

[tt2468]

7 minutes ago, Looniper said:

Well searching for my ex's laptop and dealing with the graphics limitations (and that being such a major problem with them in general) lead me to the notion, and I couldn't find any reference to anyone having actually done it.

The new thunderbolt may open a lot of doors to things like this..

I can imagine cases and motherboards made, as Sors suggests, without space allocated for a GPU.  It would allow for more efficient CPU-specific cooling, fewer case fans(less noise), and shifting that to a separate case for the GPU allows for better (distant) placement nearer a monitor and further from the user (sound again) ...

I can't really think of a reason not to do it, except the simplicity of having one large case to move over a smaller pair.. but as I mentioned above, it is the same as having an external hdd or optical drive with your pc.

The bandwidth of pcie keeps cable lengths down, although thunderbolt is a different story.

[Looniper]

1 hour ago, Fgtfv567 said:

No they can't, 30cm max if you don't want to see any type of signal degradation. 24 inches is 60 cm, so max for you is roughly a foot.

 

Slot segment? What the 7 lanes on the back of the case? I don't follow.

 

Uh...OK, guess it's good that they're that cheap, doesn't answer the third prompt though...

 

Yeah, cutting holes in the case would be a pain in the ass, haven't had experience with it myself, still doesn't answer the fourth prompt though

As you hadn't read the entire original post, I didn't expect that you wanted a 'prompt-by-prompt' answer... but now that I know...

1- Cable length.
PCI-E uses the same signal method as SATA, meaning it has identical durability.
Using the Standard grade copper wire cables that means a 6' Standard cable length (after which they suggest a repeater) while actual degredation begins at around 3 meters.

Our raid server is cabled to the pcie adapter on the terminal 7' away and has never had an issue.. and the cable is guaranteed for life.

(to the idea of it being a limit of 24", there are Motherboards with a greater than 24 inc distance between the port and the connector)

2- Enclosure.
As I said in the original post, use the 'slot' segment from an old tower case.. (or a broken toaster, a fish bowl, anything)

The Slot Segment of a case is the part made of the lightweight steel (or heavier aluminum) from which you remove 'tabs' to expose the ISA/PCI/PCIE/etc card slots of a typical home computer's motherboard.
In most cases, the material could be shaped using just a pair of pliers and some leather gloves.

3- Moving the case.
The same as having an external HDD/Optical/Reader/etc device.
Unplug it.  Move the computer to the new placement.  Plug it back in.

4- Heat.
The primary reason for this was Space, but heat is why people invest literally hundreds on high performance cooling systems over the standard coolers that come with the CPU/GPU or a $20 aftermarket version.

But to my main reason...
How many people do you know who own both a Laptop and a Desktop pc, because they need the laptop for 'mobile' purposes and the home pc for more powerful graphics for gaming, editing, etc?

How much did the Home PC cost?

Because this method would allow them to use a normal laptop in the normal way, relying on the integrated graphics or the lower powered dedicated internal GPU.... and 'plug in' the descrite GPU at home, eliminating the entire cost of the home PC except for the graphics card + a few dollars worth of cables and whatever they used for the GPU's case. (which could be an old shoe box)


re-reading, it sounds like I'm grumpy, but I'm not.
 

[Looniper]

1 hour ago, Kyle Manning said:

The bandwidth of pcie keeps cable lengths down, although thunderbolt is a different story.

Thunderbolt helps, but PCIE is the same specification as SATA, so a 6' industry standard with actual degradation starting at around 9', and being a serious problem at around 12.

But even without thunderbolt, there are Active cables and repeaters.

[Fgtfv567]

20 hours ago, Looniper said:

As you hadn't read the entire original post, I didn't expect that you wanted a 'prompt-by-prompt' answer... but now that I know...

1- Cable length.
PCI-E uses the same signal method as SATA, meaning it has identical durability.
Using the Standard grade copper wire cables that means a 6' Standard cable length (after which they suggest a repeater) while actual degredation begins at around 3 meters.
 

Because this method would allow them to use a normal laptop in the normal way, relying on the integrated graphics or the lower powered dedicated internal GPU.... and 'plug in' the descrite GPU at home, eliminating the entire cost of the home PC except for the graphics card + a few dollars worth of cables and whatever they used for the GPU's case. (which could be an old shoe box)


re-reading, it sounds like I'm grumpy, but I'm not.
 

Well, I heard that 30 cm is the limit. If you want to give me proof, experiment or article, then I'll believe you

 

Wait, so the point is to have an external GPU, and be able to plug it in into both your laptop and desktop?

First, that already exists. It's called the Razer Core, but it costs 500 bucks and does not come with a GPU. The Razer Core plugs in via Thunderbolt 3 (based off of the USB Type-C port)

Second, good luck plugging in a desktop GPU into a laptop using a PCIe riser cable. Laptops don't have full 16x slots. They might have mini PCIe though, if you buy the right model and can find an adapter.

[sgloux3470]

22 hours ago, givegomezthegun said:

In my observation, graphics cards are getting cooler and smaller.. And any somewhat recent video card to come out, I've yet to see one where your overclock is limited by thermals.. Other than doing something different and possibly interesting to a small number of people, there's no real reason to bring your graphics card outside your case.

Yeah the only time GPU's seem to be limited by thermals is with multiGPU set ups.

[Looniper]

19 hours ago, Fgtfv567 said:

Well, I heard that 30 cm is the limit. If you want to give me proof, experiment or article, then I'll believe you

 

Wait, so the point is to have an external GPU, and be able to plug it in into both your laptop and desktop?

First, that already exists. It's called the Razer Core, but it costs 500 bucks and does not come with a GPU. The Razer Core plugs in via Thunderbolt 3 (based off of the USB Type-C port)

Second, good luck plugging in a desktop GPU into a laptop using a PCIe riser cable. Laptops don't have full 16x slots. They might have mini PCIe though, if you buy the right model and can find an adapter.

New rig is up and running, love that new build smell but hate being offline so long.

- "30cm is the limit" "If you want to give me proof"
Well besides the 7' custom-cut we use 24/7 and have for 2.5 years with no trouble, there is the fact that you can buy the cords longer than that retail already .. 50cm cable from Digi-Key (pricey)

And to show how well it works.. When I searched for a lower price on the same 500mm cable I came across a page about someone comparing it to other lengths to see if it impacted overall 'speed' of a GPU.  PCI Express Cables Benchmarked. 50cm vs 30cm vs 20cm .. from which you can draw that it does not harm the performance of a card.

" point is to have an external GPU, and be able to plug it in into both your laptop and desktop "
No.  The point was that because you have an external GPU, you don't Need the desktop.  You can just plug your Laptop into the GPU and use it as one.

"Razer Core"
Yes, after realizing what terms I Should have been using to search for information on this the first time, I have been able to find several examples.. from home-brew boxes cobbled together, prototype cable/box systems being developed by commercial outlets... And yes, the Razer core (looks nice too)

"Good luck plugging in"
Ah, but that's why we have people like Linus.. to make the technical things sound so simple we feel stupid for not realizing how it worked in the first place.

And as a ease.. I suspect that if the practice of externalizing Gaphics starts to catch on, the manufacturers will be in a race to see who among them can be the one to introduce The new port standard for rear-plate PCIEx16 cable connectors. (the wide form isn't practical for this purpose.. completely Doable, but round cables are always nicer when you're outside the case)

The limitation of Half PCIE slots on laptops is due to there being really no reason to invest the time to change from the older design.  But even a Downward-running GTX 970 is better than any integrated laptop graphics as far as I was able to determine.

I've been digging for parts I can cannibalize for a test build, and am going to ask a friend who works at a mill if he would be interested in a project like this..