School Camera Recommendations

[nickl]

Hi All,

 

The (high) school I attend has decided to start a course that is supposed to give students "skills in computer design, film and video production, lighting, sound, and projection design, and print media design", basically a video production class. I'm not exactly sure what the school is saying/meaning by this, and I have not spoken to the teacher that is supposed to be teaching this class. I have been working with a technology guy/teacher who has done this in the past in a previous job, as well as leading this in a cut down form and not as a formal class. School administration has come to him to choose and buy equipment for the class. As I have been helping with the program this year as it began, and he has come to (mostly) me to help him choose what equipment that he should buy, or at least how much to quote the administration an estimation of the cost for such equipment. Currently, we have purchased:

• 3x Big Camcorders (1080p30)
• 3x Tripods
• 5-6 C-Stands
• 2x Wired XLR Lav's
• 6x LED light panels & light stands
• Green screens
• Production switcher
• other stuff that doesn't really matter...

I am unsure what type of video production that they intend to do in the class, but I have been told that they want to do some ENG stuff, but also to do some (cinematic) film making. From early estimates, the guy I'm working with now (who will not be teaching the class) has given administration a high estimate of $16,000. He was planning on getting around 5-6 cameras/camera setups for a class of (hopefully) around 30.

I have been mostly focusing on cameras. I have been looking at both ENG/professional camcorders, consumer camcorders, DSLR's, and Blackmagic Cinema Cameras.

I am not really sure what kind of camera to get. I get that a DSLR or Cinema Camera gives greater flexibility, and can yield better results, but I'm afraid the extra training/trouble/complication of a DSLR or cinema camera would be more discouraging/confusing to students. They would also require external audio recorders and not allow for as 'run and gun' style shooting or use in a less controlled environment. Interchangeable lenses also add extra cost and complication, but allow for better creative flexibility. Personally I would appreciate the greater control, flexibility and modularity of a DSLR setup, but I'm not sure it would be appropriate for a larger class who may or may not be interested in the technical side of video production.

The AIO solution of a camcorder would be much more conducive to a run-and-gun style of shooting, and may be more versatile since some would have built in XLR and may be more durable. But on the other hand, they don't offer interchangeable lenses or as good of control over the image.

Should we go with some DSLR's and some camcorders, or should we spend less money and time thinking about cameras, and put more resources on getting lighting equipment or microphones to improve the lighting or sound of our videos? The guy I'm working with now has planned to get some Sennheiser  ew G3 wireless mic transmitter/receiver/lav kits, as well as something like a RODE VideoMic for each camera. Should we also get softboxes, boom polls, and better shotgun mics like RODE NTG2's or ENG/interview style mics like RODE Reporters?

I understand that my question mainly ties into the question of what we will be filming and how we plan to structure the class. Sorry if I'm vague or asking too complicated of a question.

[Jordaneer]

I would go with blackmagic pocket cinema cameras. This would allow you the flexibility of a DSLR, but also isn't quite as expensive, plus there if no point in spending a bunch of  money on stuff like softboxes to make your videos look better if you have bad cameras to record on, the camera is probably the most important part of video production.

[Hackentosher]

Perhaps a canon 70D or a GH4 would be the right camera. Both are very high quality, and with a bit of trial and error/research you could find the right settings. Many YouTubers use these two cameras because they are exceptional at video capture.

[Dredgy]

Blackmagic Studio Cameras are widely used in  educational settings for television production, and you can buy kits like this, which includes 3 cameras, plus recorders, a production switcher and monitors. Though since you have most of the production equipment already, the whole kit is probably m00t, and you can buy 3 HD cameras with about $10k to spare.

 

For film and cinema - I completely agree with you that syncing audio is just an annoyance that shouldn't be tolerated - but it's the easiest thing to work around, since a fair few cameras have good audio options. I would look at a Canon C100 as a primary camera (easy to run around with, XLR ports on the handle, good video quality). I do think it's best to get a cinema camera over a camcorder though, since it offers the chance for students to learn more technical skills. If it's creative skills you're trying to teach though, a camcorder might be the better option. Luckily you have change left from that C100 to pick up a camcorder or two, and a pocket cinema camera to boot.!

 

I can't answer on the case of audio, since the use case is too vague. I think it's always great to have a wireless lav mic or two on hand. Shotgun mics I find limited use for, unless I desperately can't have a lav mic in shot, but having someone work a boom could be very educationally beneficial. Rode NTG-2 and reporters are both great mics, but you need to prioritize them on use case, so I can't really help. A shotgun mic will need at least a dead cat, if not a blimp for run and gun work outdoors.

Another thing to look at might be a Rode Stereo Microphone for if students are making short films and want to capture ambient noise for the bacgkround tracks.

[nickl]

31 minutes ago, Dredgy said:

I completely agree with you that syncing audio is just an annoyance that shouldn't be tolerated

I didn't really mean syncing audio specifically, I meant stuff like the interchangeable lenses, the whole stuff with having something that isn't contiguous, but segmented. I do agree that getting at least 1 cinema camera would be good for more organized and controlled scenarios in which we wouldn't have to be filming things that are unpredictable (ex a football game), and it would allow the teacher to teach about the technical side of film making. I was hoping that we could also do more creative stuff, but personally, I would like to come at it from a technical standpoint (as I'm a tech nerd). I suppose that a lot of this decision would come down to the teacher that will be doing this... So far, we have most/all we really need to do live production, and if we got something like the Sony PXW-X70, it has an SDI output, so we could use it as a third or fourth camera in a studio setup.

Thanks for the input

[Dredgy]

1 minute ago, nickl said:

I meant stuff like the interchangeable lenses, the whole stuff with having something that isn't contiguous, but segmented

That's the stuff that I meant as valuable to learn. 

[nickl]

Just now, Dredgy said:

That's the stuff that I meant as valuable to learn. 

I get that, and I would like to teach that personally, I'm just unsure what both administration and the instructor want to teach.

[ALwin]

No to HDSLR cameras for what they want to do.  Seriously, NO!

 

For a production switcher, Blackmagic has a series of ATEM switchers that would suit their needs.  The ATEM Television Studio comes to mind.

 

For cameras, something like the Sony PXW X70 sounds suitable.  It's also suitable for ENG.  They can buy a couple of these mixed in with some Blackmagic cameras or Canon C100 to get a variety.

 

The Sennheiser EW G3 lavs are good, but they need to make sure they select the proper frequencies.  That's the biggest issue with choosing wireless lavs, the frequencies allowed by regulation.

 

With each X70 camcorder, they can use a RODE NTG2.  When you start talking about booming mics and other things you also have to consider other accessories.  I'm thinking they might need to invest in something like a couple of Tascam DR680 or Zoom F8 external recorders, especially if they want to teach the students how to capture Foley.

 

$16,000 might sound like a big budget, but when you need to buy multiple cameras it becomes tiny.  Ask them what they really want to do and I will be able to provide a better suggestion for accessories

[nickl]

4 minutes ago, ALwin said:

No to HDSLR cameras for what they want to do.  Seriously, NO!

For a production switcher, Blackmagic has a series of ATEM switchers that would suit their needs.  The ATEM Television Studio comes to mind.

We already have a production switcher that works well, so that can be taken out of the budget. Do you think we should do more for lighting?

[ALwin]

2 minutes ago, nickl said:

We already have a production switcher that works well, so that can be taken out of the budget. Do you think we should do more for lighting?

Definitely, the reason I didn't mention anything about lighting is because I think whoever is in charge should already know what sort, size and how many lights they need.  It's one of the hardest items to recommend as there are different types of lighting setups for different filming needs.

 

At the most basic, for ENG work each camera should have a camera mounted LED panel.

 

Studio and field lighting has to take into consideration the size and volume of the studio, powering the lights when in the field (in places where power outlets are not handy), what kind of color temperature lights, mounting color gels, modifying the lights using softboxes, diffusers, grids, snoots, etc.

[nickl]

Got it. I'll get back to you when I get more information on what we actually will be doing. Thanks!

[ALwin]

Lighting is not just about using lights, it can also be about controlling the other types of lights (natural or artificial) that cannot be taken out of the scene.

 

When filming in bright daylight, you might have to consider setting up large diffuser panels or ways to minimize/block out sunlight or dealing with street lamps and indoor ceiling lights that may possibly be out of your control to turn off or change color or something else altogether.

 

The only true controlled environment a film maker has is inside the studio.

 

For audio, while you may not enjoy syncing audio in post, there are advantages to using a double system than a single system.  A single system where the audio is inserted into the video whilst filming is convenient for a lot of things, but a double system with an external recorder offers advantages:

• possibly much better preamps
• possibly better bit rate and sampling rate, personally I think 24-bit 48khz should be the minimum and 24-bit 96khz is better
• connecting multiple microphones and different types of microphones

You already mentioned shotgun and lav mics, I'd also recommend looking into investing in some boundary mics and dynamic mics.

 

There will be times where you cannot avoid recording sound externally, because there will be situations where even with the most proper mic positioning you will have difficulty capturing clean audio.

 

So for automatic dialogue replacement (ADR) and Foley, you should have an external recorder or mixer, I recommend something like a Tascam DR680 at least or even better a Zoom F8 if you don't want to go for the expensive Sound Devices hardware.  A studio setup would also work, but then you'd be tied down to where the sound studio is located.

 

Foley especially is one of the hardest to capture at the same time as filming the scene.

[nickl]

Yeah, I get the advantages of recording with multiple microphones and think that for stuff where we have a more controlled environment, I would really like to get a multi-track recorder. Unfortunately (and somewhat stupidly) we didn't get any softboxes or any way to control/shape lights. I think that we should get some stuff like softboxes, gels, diffusion paper reflector, etc. I feel that we are going to be used by the school not just for creative film making, but to make propaganda and news video. Am I correct that we probably wouldn't be using things like bounces for ENG stuff, and that we wouldn't use a cinema style camera for ENG?

 

I forgot about mics like stereo mics, what other kinds were you thinking (other than the boundary mic that you talked about) We already have some dynamic performance mics for stage use and stuff, but would you suggest that we get something like a dynamic ENG/interview mic or a cardioid recording mic? Sorry for being ignorant...

[ALwin]

@nickl

 

Here's a nice Youtube channel I recommend you follow, with sample videos from their channel that you might find interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/user/FilmmakerIQcom/videos

 

This is a 3 part video series, so watch the other parts too:

 

Here's one about ADR

 

One about Foley

 

About lighting

 

Color

 

 

 

 

[nickl]

Thanks man!

[ALwin]

3 minutes ago, nickl said:

Thanks man!

That channel has quite a lot on the history of cinematography, Hollywood, television and popcorn in the US. Some of the things you learn are just... "wow I didn't realize that" kind of stuff.

[nickl]

Yeah, I follow people like DSLRGuide and RocketJump Film School and read a bit about this stuff, so its great to learn more.

[ALwin]

57 minutes ago, nickl said:

Snip

Can you post a list of what cameras and accessories are already owned/purchased?

[nickl]

Sure:

• 3x Panasonic AG-HMC80 
• ~4x Sony Handycam Consumer Camcorder (something like the HDR-CX455)
• 6x Litepanels 1x1 Mono LED Daylight Spot Light
• 6x Impact Light Stand (something like this)
• 5-6 Impact C-stands
• 3x Magnus Video Tripods
• 2x Sony Wired XLR Lavalier Mics
• 1x NewTek Tricaster 410 and Control Surface
• 2-3x HDMI-SDI cross converter
• a bunch of XLR, SDI, and HDMI cables
• 2x ikan teleprompters
• 2x big green screens
• 1-2x black (I think Duvetyne) cloth backdrops
• some kind of backdrop holding system (for green screens)
• 2-3x dynamic Shure stage mics
• 1x Mackie mixer
• overpriced set of wireless headsets
• I think we might have a bounce

Note: we were using this stuff for green screened news style work, and I think that this upcoming year, we will be trying to do more creative stuff and teach film making, but I can't be sure...

[ALwin]

Ok so you already have gear for the ENG side of things, which means you could just focus on getting cameras and equipment for the cine side.

 

With a $16,000 budget for a class of 30 students, here is what could be done:

• 3x Canon C100 cameras and basic lens(es) comes around $3000-3500 per camera.
• or to give it a bit more variety get 2x C100 and a few BM Pocket Cinema cameras for variety.  No matter what the students will have to work in groups anyway.
• The remaining $6000 or so invest in NTG2, RodeLink wireless lav system (cheaper than Sennheiser), Tascam DR70 per cine camera.
• A basic tripod with a video head will cost around $150-200 per set.  Boom poles cost about $50 each.
• you already have some nice LED panels and if you need more get some cheaper panels.  You don't need to buy the expensive Litepanels all the time.
• equipment can be shared and not every group will need the same set of stands, lights, backdrops, etc.

Think about what the basic "film making" kit would include for each group of students in the class to do an assignment.

 

And if there aren't enough of the "cine" cameras to go around among the students... well this is a high school class, not a full on film making course.  You already have around 7 basic camcorders to go around and a lot of other accessories.

[nickl]

We don't have any lenses for cine cameras, I assume we would go with inexpensive MFT or EF lenses? Would getting ND's or polarizers be useful, or with out kind of budget, would they be overkill?.

Edit: Sorry, didn't read your post closely enough, you already addressed that.

Edit 2: I also realized that the C100 has a built in ND.

Edit 3: As the BMPCC uses a MFT mount and the C100 uses EF, would we get 2 sets of lenses, or get an adapter like this? If we did use an adapter, I assume we would want a lens that is meant for APS-C sensors since they would be inexpensive, and no video cameras that we will ever use has anything larger. Due to its really small size I assume a Canon EF-S or other crop EF lens would work with the BMPCC with the adapter above, right?

[ALwin]

I'm also responding here to one of your previous comments.

 

Basically I would say almost any camera can be used for ENG.  Of course the preferences of the user might dictate which camera is more suitable than another. I've grown to love convenience of nearly all-in-one type of packages hence my current camera instead of going the route of a cheaper DSLR + setting up weird looking rigs.

 

For broadcast, especially live broadcasting, you'd want to look for things like what sort of inputs/output connections the camera has.  E.g. SDI I believe is preferred a lot more than HDMI connections, and SDI cables can be longer than HDMI.

 

But these are just generalizations.

 

For mics, well if you want stereo mics there are various types:

• stereo shotguns like Sennheiser MKH 418 which uses a MS stereo capsule in the tube
• XY stereo like the RODE NT4
• or matched pair stereo mics which uses two mics

You can invest in some decent variable ND filters which are two polarizers stacked together to get the variable effect.  I don't think you should go for normal polarizing filters.  Variable ND filters can be cheap.

 

Samyang and Rokinon makes some cheap Cine lenses. If you go for higher quality ones they will eat up your budget fast.  With Cine lenses you also need to invest in follow focusing systems and rail mounts, which can be cheap on ebay.  You can use lens adapters.

 

It's a high school level course, how long is it going to run for each class of students a year?  Look at the gear you currently have, figure out what topics are going to be covered, how the course is going to be structured, and make a list of some things you need.

 

You might not even need to invest in that many Canon C100 cameras.  Before the invent of digital cine cameras like these, students learned film making using camcorders and whatever (film) camera was available.  The main thing they need to learn is the art of story telling.  All the technical side of how to operate a camera can be learned in greater detail later on, if they decide their future is in movie making.

 

If you don't need that many new or expensive cameras, you can think about "Hmm we don't have a dolly or slider or a jib, perhaps investing in one of each could be useful. The students can share and plan a schedule to use it when they have an assignment."

 

Would be nice if you can post the course syllabus and talk to the teacher running it.

[nickl]

I'll do that when I talk to the person who is running it. The class will be running from late August to mid May, for an average of 1 hr per day.

Due to their lower price, would it better to get normal camera lenses instead of cine lenses?

[ALwin]

19 minutes ago, nickl said:

snip

So the course is like any other normal high school class, 1 class a day for the entire school year.

 

Seeing as there are some nice cine lenses here for a very low price, I'd probably get at least 1 set for the course (maybe a 24, 35, 50 and an 85)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2|0&ci=25249&setNs=p_PRICE_2|0&N=3908282151&srtclk=sort

 

Since you already have those shoulder mounted Panasonic cameras and the small camcorders, perhaps you can think about getting the cameras like this to add a bit of variety and the students get to have first hand experience of how different types of cameras operate:

• 1x C100 for the semi-pro type of camera
• 1x BM cinema camera or pocket cinema camera or both, 1 of each
• 1x BM studio camera?
• Perhaps a DSLR/MILC (I'd recommend a Sony A6000 here just so students get to see how different Sony's color science is compared to BM or Canon) just to show what is involved in working with different cameras (though it may be that some of the students taking the course owns a DSLR capable of video)
• You can buy like 1 native mount lens for each camera, and additional lenses can be shared using adapters
• Here is an opportunity to buy a nice collection of vintage Nikon glass, zooms and primes, as Nikon's long flange distance makes it ideal to be used with almost every other mount

Ok that's for the cameras.

Same thing for all the other gear, get enough variety for sound recorders, mics, etc. just so that students see what different tools are available and how they differ from each other.