MSI failure rate, class action suit.

[Jonyton]

This is kind of an old question however, I'm a lawyer and a nerd, and I'm throwing together a class action lawsuit against MSI for t he failure rate of their z87 xpower motherboard.  As I myself have had to RMA the fucking thing 3 times in 2 months then got sick of spending more money on a motherboard I bought for 450 dollars lasted about 3 months and have never received a quality one yet.  I'm convinced it's a lemon, I mean 32 PWM's people don't even do that now.  Who needs that?  However I would be interested in anyone who had similar problems with the board, as well as other MSI boards, with repeated RMA's and repeated failure rates.  By the by I"m not a noob, I have  custom water cooling loop my temps are phenomenal, my cpu is delidded and lapped, and liquid ultra pro is directly on the die coupled with gelid extreme OC on the IHS.  Also I would be interested in anyone who can provide me the statistics ( reported statistics ) for major motherboard manufacturers circa 2014.  A link, not a breakdown please.  I have no faith in MSI as a company anymore, I called their "international office" in Taipan city taiwan because it wasn't an international number and it led to a Nissan dealership in Georgia.  So I proceeded to call their other numbers, two lead to random red necks, and all were cell phones.  Also the QOS or whatever barcodes on their website, a lot of them are fake they're just for show, and the apps do not exist, they're just pictures to give value to a shady ass company.  Which given the number of idiots and clueless rednecks answered their "help lines" I'm pretty sure they are guilty of tax evasion as well.  Now after I bitched they changed them on the website to lead to a dead end recording at least.  I mean really get creative.

[don_svetlio]

Are you sure your PSU is not the cause?

[Jonyton]

um I've had a corsair 1200i psu since i bought the thing.  I don't even use it anymore it's not worth it, I bought a gigabyte black edition z97 motherboard and it's caused me no problems, no rmas and no bsods.  I still also have the same power supply

 

plus I don't see how the PSU could break the motherboard, unless the VRM was fucked up in it to begin with, and the z87 chipset has a high failure rate, the highest intel failure rate since the 970.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

While you're at it, you should also consider throwing one at Gigabyte. 

[Jonyton]

For what? they have the lowest failure rate of all the motherboard manufacturers and haven't sold me a product I needed to RMA or that has failed me to this date 15 years of pc building and I rebuild a PC about ever 2.

 

So what that's um about 12 motherboards? without an issue,  yet I buy MSI once and it lasts for 6 months and the refurbished one they sent was DOA, and the other one was shitty and full of issues too.  Plus Amazon put a warning on the z87 xpower, do you understand how rare that is?

 

  They need to receive over a 35 pct return/failure rate within the first 30 days to warrant that.  That's how fucking rare it is.

 

[Nena Trinity]

You are kidding right? I have had 2 of 2 good motherboards from MSI and even a laptop but its fan was getting noisy and I had to send it in for repair...

[Jonyton]

education goes a long way kid.  32 pwm's is the problem, no one needs that many pwm's  or the VRM  also to work that kind of amplification in tandem is something that is very easy to screw up.  Without correct timing you could be under-volting or over-volting your chipset/processor.  Here's something else you should know under-volting your rig is worse then over-volting it.  There are plenty of safeguards in place for overfolting  your computer down to your PSU however there are almost none in place for under-volting it. I have no problem with MSI's graphics cards, they always made excellent graphics cards in my opinion.  However they should have stuck with that, and they shouldn't be doing business in America under fraudulent pretenses like falsified tech support numbers and fake QOS's for apps.   They're a shady ass company and I've gathered enough evidence on the matter to prove it.  ( I minored in pre-law ) and consumer protection rights are among the most underdeveloped laws in the United States, and it's abhorrent to me that companies think they can get away with this kind of shit.

 

I might go after asus next, or evga because i've never had a good experience with either of their motherboards.

 

I'm not saying all their products are terrible.  Not even all their motherboards, however t his particular one has given me enough problems to go above and beyond mathematical probability for failure.  It's a 450 dollar paper weight.

 

IF you had a good experience, fine, be a fanboy I respect brand loyalty.  However i had a very bad and costly experience the one time i  bought a premium motherboard from MSI.  I have brand loyalty to gigabyte motherboards.  They've never failed me.  I also like MSI's graphics cards which have also given me little grief, I even bought a gaming gd65 to give MSI a second shot and that did me fine.  However I know a lemon when i see one.

[harrynowl]

1 minute ago, Jonyton said:

education goes a long way kid.  32 pwm's is the problem, no one needs that many pwm's  or the VRM  also to work that kind of amplification in tandem is something that is very easy to screw up.  Without correct timing you could be under-volting or over-volting your chipset/processor.  Here's something else you should know under-volting your rig is worse then over-volting it.  There are plenty of safeguards in place for overfolting  your computer down to your PSU however there are almost none in place for under-volting it. I have no problem with MSI's graphics cards, they always made excellent graphics cards in my opinion.  However they should have stuck with that, and they shouldn't be doing business in America under fraudulent pretenses like falsified tech support numbers and fake QOS's for apps.   They're a shady ass company and I've gathered enough evidence on the matter to prove it.  ( I minored in pre-law ) and consumer protection rights are among the most underdeveloped laws in the United States, and it's abhorrent to me that companies think they can get away with this kind of shit.

A vrm only consists of a single pwm

 

good luck with your case

[-iSynthesis]

I don't see this going anywhere - You want to file a lawsuite against 2 companys or even more because You had bad experience with them? Go look around this forum and ask how many people have had good experience with EVGA for example. You'll be outnumbered damn fast. You have zero evidence other than the few motherboards of yours not working. If you had to RMA 2-3 motherboards within the last 3 months that may be 1% of the motherboards they sell. Also i don't know what you expect from your lawsuit, even if it succeeds. 

[Jonyton]

okay obviously you'll not get it unless spelled out slowly. A vrm is to control variations in voltage, as to not overvolt your processor, a PWM is used to amplify power in order to supply power to all the other little components you don't understand in your rig.  Now voltage has nothing to do with power output wattage does, and there's  simple formula to calculate wattage it's amps x volts = watts.   And also a VRM as a buck converter, if you knew what that was, converts AC to DC which is the main difference between the two.

[harrynowl]

Alright it's a troll. got it. this guy cannot be serious

[Jonyton]

uh justice? plus it's fraud, and I have tons of evidence. recorded phone conversations, which yes kids are admissible in a court of law, I have a breakdown of their website proving falsified numbers, QOS applications which don't go anywhere.  Proof of altering and deleting records. the list goes on.  Asus and EVGA was a joke.  I'm sorry but young people don't understand sarcasm in the written word.

 

Lol you're cute

 

doesn't know what a buck converter is. hahaha. doesn't know the difference between a VRM and a PWM.

 

I mean what you just plug it in w here it fits huh?

 

do you know why you delid? do you know what lapping is? do you know why arctic silver five can't be used with liquid ultra pro?

[-iSynthesis]

2 minutes ago, Jonyton said:

uh justice? plus it's fraud, and I have tons of evidence. recorded phone conversations, which yes kids are admissible in a court of law, I have a breakdown of their website proving falsified numbers, QOS applications which don't go anywhere.  Proof of altering and deleting records. the list goes on.  Asus and EVGA was a joke.  I'm sorry but young people don't understand sarcasm in the written word.

Would be nice of you to quote people so we have a plan on who you are talking to. 

 

Just now, Jonyton said:

do you know why you delid? do you know what lapping is? do you know why arctic silver five can't be used with liquid ultra pro?

Now you have come to a point where i cannot believe you are a lawyer or you shouldn't be. A bit of respect to others please. Don't know where you live but in germany recorded phone conversations are not allowed in court unless the other party agreed to you recording them.  

[maverick_brent]

for a lawyer doing a class action looking for other victims...you sure have an odd wasy of recruiting people for the cause....

 

 

..but thats none of my business

 

[harrynowl]

1 minute ago, Jonyton said:

going back to tall talk, I'm a big proprietor of standing up for myself.  I know it's the american way to lay down and take it, however I don't.  I'll fight like hell for my civil rights and when I've been dealt an injustice I act on it.  When a corporation fucks me I prefer to fuck them right back.

I hope they provide dummies and bibs at court

[TX-OC]

Jesus. take 20 seconds to read the specs for this motherboard.

 

It only has 1 PWM for the cpu, like 99.9% of other consumer rated motherboards.  PWM stands for power modulator module. its that small chip on the motherboard that controls the other parts of the VRM like mofsfets and chokes, and makes them synced so that the right voltage is being output.

 

1 hour ago, Jonyton said:

Who needs that?

 

 

Assuming that you're referring to the 32 POWER PHASES on the motherboard, generally the more there is the better. this is a complex topic and gets even more complicated when a doubler is used. Having a lot of power phases the power is spread across many power phases. This means that the power output to the cpu is more stable, the vrm's get less stressed and the vrm temperature is reduced. This benefits extreme overclockers the most, but it can also benefit the average enthusiast who is using ambient cooling.

1 hour ago, Jonyton said:

plus I don't see how the PSU could break the motherboard, unless the VRM was fucked up in it to begin with, and the z87 chipset has a high failure rate, the highest intel failure rate since the 970.

 

Its not the chipset thats failing...

And have you forgotten about the H67/P67 chipset SATA degradation? It preety much affected all the H67 and P67 chipsets

 

BTW, good luck with gigabyte. They have a huge failure rate with their recent motherboards.

[Jonyton]

1 hour ago, Jonyton said:

I never stated I was a lawyer I said I was pre-law.  Yes that's a common misconception in america as well.  However it's based on two facts which back the law, one being a reasonable expectation of privacy which on a cell phone is not expected in any way, two being eavesdropping.  A recorded conversation by a machine is not eavesdropping.  Also as all companies do it, as does our government and they are in fact eavesdropping as well as violating a reasonable expectation of privacy.  With the right  judge it is very much admissible,  there is something called case law in america, well there are three types of legal standards, criminal law, civil law, and case law.  What you spend your time in school learning is case law, because when a judge establishes a precedent for something it's considered case law.  This is how loopholes are created in the system in which our governing bodies are so slow to make archaic laws such as not being able to record conversations that they're necessary to not hinder progression and public opinion.

really power modulator module that's what PWM stands for?

 

1 hour ago, TX-OC said:

Jesus. take 20 seconds to read the specs for this motherboard.

 

It only has 1 PWM for the cpu, like 99.9% of other consumer rated motherboards.  PWM stands for power modulator module. its that small chip on the motherboard that controls the other parts of the VRM like mofsfets and chokes, and makes them synced so that the right voltage is being output.

 

 

 

Assuming that you're referring to the 32 POWER PHASES on the motherboard, generally the more there is the better. this is a complex topic and gets even more complicated when a doubler is used. Having a lot of power phases the power is spread across many power phases. This means that the power output to the cpu is more stable, the vrm's get less stressed and the vrm temperature is reduced. This benefits extreme overclockers the most, but it can also benefit the average enthusiast who is using ambient cooling.

 

Its not the chipset thats failing...

And have you forgotten about the H67/P67 chipset SATA degradation? It preety much affected all the H67 and P67 chipsets

 

BTW, good luck with gigabyte. They have a huge failure rate with their recent motherboards.

god I wish acronyms actually used the major letters their comprised of.

 

1 hour ago, TX-OC said:

Jesus. take 20 seconds to read the specs for this motherboard.

 

It only has 1 PWM for the cpu, like 99.9% of other consumer rated motherboards.  PWM stands for power modulator module. its that small chip on the motherboard that controls the other parts of the VRM like mofsfets and chokes, and makes them synced so that the right voltage is being output.

 

 

 

Assuming that you're referring to the 32 POWER PHASES on the motherboard, generally the more there is the better. this is a complex topic and gets even more complicated when a doubler is used. Having a lot of power phases the power is spread across many power phases. This means that the power output to the cpu is more stable, the vrm's get less stressed and the vrm temperature is reduced. This benefits extreme overclockers the most, but it can also benefit the average enthusiast who is using ambient cooling.

 

Its not the chipset thats failing...

And have you forgotten about the H67/P67 chipset SATA degradation? It preety much affected all the H67 and P67 chipsets

 

BTW, good luck with gigabyte. They have a huge failure rate with their recent motherboards.

You are right about the power phases though, it's been such a long time since I looked at the specs I"m sorry I got them confused.

 

1 hour ago, TX-OC said:

Jesus. take 20 seconds to read the specs for this motherboard.

 

It only has 1 PWM for the cpu, like 99.9% of other consumer rated motherboards.  PWM stands for power modulator module. its that small chip on the motherboard that controls the other parts of the VRM like mofsfets and chokes, and makes them synced so that the right voltage is being output.

 

 

 

Assuming that you're referring to the 32 POWER PHASES on the motherboard, generally the more there is the better. this is a complex topic and gets even more complicated when a doubler is used. Having a lot of power phases the power is spread across many power phases. This means that the power output to the cpu is more stable, the vrm's get less stressed and the vrm temperature is reduced. This benefits extreme overclockers the most, but it can also benefit the average enthusiast who is using ambient cooling.

 

Its not the chipset thats failing...

And have you forgotten about the H67/P67 chipset SATA degradation? It preety much affected all the H67 and P67 chipsets

 

BTW, good luck with gigabyte. They have a huge failure rate with their recent motherboards.

but PWM stands for pulse width modulation.  Where the fuck you got power modulator module I have no clue.

[Fetzie]

1 hour ago, Jonyton said:

plus I don't see how the PSU could break the motherboard, unless the VRM was fucked up in it to begin with, and the z87 chipset has a high failure rate, the highest intel failure rate since the 970.

How about the P67 SATA bus issue which led to a recall due to the SATA controller dying?

How about the Skylake AVX issue which could kill CPUs if you ran certain stress tests (fixed via microcode update)?

 

The PSU can kill a motherboard if it does not deliver a constant voltage, in particular on the 12V input. This causes the VRM modules in the power phases to overheat and die. When they overheat, they provide an unstable power supply to the CPU which can, in turn, damage irreparably the transistors in the processor cores, the IMC or the cache. That's what those oscilloscope readings in JonnyGuru power supply reviews are for, and high voltage variances are a direct result of failing (or low quality) rectifiers and modulators in the power supply.

 

So how does a PSU kill a motherboard? Basic electronics, really.

 

12 minutes ago, Jonyton said:

do you know why you delid? do you know what lapping is? do you know why arctic silver five can't be used with liquid ultra pro?

 

Delidding is for marginal cooling performance increases in CPUs from Haswell to Skylake due to a less than great thermal compound between the package and the IHS (you get like 5 degrees max). Lapping is polishing the IHS. Liquid Ultra Pro is a gallium/indium alloy (IIRC) which alloys with other metals in ways that are contraproductive to securing an efficient heat transfer between heat sources and heatsinks.

[Jonyton]

1 hour ago, Fetzie said:

How about the P67 SATA bus issue which led to a recall due to the SATA controller dying?

How about the Skylake AVX issue which could kill CPUs if you ran certain stress tests (fixed via microcode update)?

 

The PSU can kill a motherboard if it does not deliver a constant voltage, in particular on the 12V input. This causes the VRM modules in the power phases to overheat and die. When they overheat, they provide an unstable power supply to the CPU which can, in turn, damage irreparably the transistors in the processor cores, the IMC or the cache. That's what those oscilloscope readings in JonnyGuru power supply reviews are for, and high voltage variances are a direct result of failing (or low quality) rectifiers and modulators in the power supply.

 

So how does a PSU kill a motherboard? Basic electronics, really.

 

 

Delidding is for marginal cooling performance increases in CPUs from Haswell to Skylake due to a less than great thermal compound between the package and the IHS (you get like 5 degrees max). Lapping is polishing the IHS. Liquid Ultra Pro is a gallium/indium alloy (IIRC) which alloys with other metals in ways that are contraproductive to securing an efficient heat transfer between heat sources and heatsinks.

looked it up i see 20min later.  little late, still dumb. and you still got most of it wrong and forgot the question.

[Fetzie]

2 minutes ago, Jonyton said:

looked it up i see 20min later.  little late, still dumb.

Nope, only just saw the thread. Took me about 2 minutes to write the post after reading the thread (and 5 minutes of thinking if I should even bother responding). I see I needn't have bothered answering your very basic question about how a power supply can break the VRM on a motherboard after-all.

 

If you are so condescending in the court-room you'll see the case thrown out.

[Jonyton]

3 minutes ago, Fetzie said:

How about the P67 SATA bus issue which led to a recall due to the SATA controller dying?

How about the Skylake AVX issue which could kill CPUs if you ran certain stress tests (fixed via microcode update)?

 

The PSU can kill a motherboard if it does not deliver a constant voltage, in particular on the 12V input. This causes the VRM modules in the power phases to overheat and die. When they overheat, they provide an unstable power supply to the CPU which can, in turn, damage irreparably the transistors in the processor cores, the IMC or the cache. That's what those oscilloscope readings in JonnyGuru power supply reviews are for, and high voltage variances are a direct result of failing (or low quality) rectifiers and modulators in the power supply.

 

So how does a PSU kill a motherboard? Basic electronics, really.

 

 

Delidding is for marginal cooling performance increases in CPUs from Haswell to Skylake due to a less than great thermal compound between the package and the IHS (you get like 5 degrees max). Lapping is polishing the IHS. Liquid Ultra Pro is a gallium/indium alloy (IIRC) which alloys with other metals in ways that are contraproductive to securing an efficient heat transfer between heat sources and heatsinks.

for one how bout in less time thne it take you to google it and read at a 3rd grade level you tell me why you lap.  Then tell me why the last answer was wrong.

[TX-OC]

8 minutes ago, Jonyton said:

You are right about the power phases though, it's been such a long time since I looked at the specs I"m sorry I got them confused.

1 minute ago, TX-OC said:

Im in the middle of benching runs and i was concentrating on that. i made a mistake. everything else stands in that post is correct though

 

I was in the middle of benching runs so i was contrecating on that. i made a mistake. the other stuff in the post is still correct

[swordsm3n]

1 hour ago, Jonyton said:

I'm a lawyer and a nerd

 

14 minutes ago, Jonyton said:

I never stated I was a lawyer I said I was pre-law.

LOL

[-iSynthesis]

Just now, swordsm3n said:

 

LOL

lol

[Jonyton]

2 minutes ago, Fetzie said:

Nope, only just saw the thread. Took me about 2 minutes to write the post after reading the thread (and 5 minutes of thinking if I should even bother responding). I see I needn't have bothered answering your very basic question about how a power supply can break the VRM on a motherboard after-all.

 

If you are so condescending in the court-room you'll see the case thrown out.

You're funny, and as I said before I"m not a lawyer.  However you don't understand anything about human psychology or the legal system.  Because being condescending in a court room is how you win a case.