UPS power switching problem

[small2cats]

I'm having a problem with my UPS and PSU, I used to have a super cheap PSU in the system and everything was fine. Then I bought a Thermaltake Smart SE530 and that's when the problem started. Now every time the power goes out and the UPS would switch to battery backup, the computer would just shut off on it's own. I looked around and found a post on some forum discussing the same issue and I learned that PSUs with active power factor correction have problems with the "dirty" simulated sine waves that UPSs produce on battery backup, which causes them to trip and shut off to protect the computer. It also suggested some UPSs which provide relatively cleaner output which was compatible with APFC, but any of those are as abundant as dinosaurs in my part of the world.

 

So please suggest anything I can do to make this work without throwing out my UPS? I actually just bought a pretty big battery pack replacement for the UPS too which makes this even worse. So if you have any suggestion which might fix this, it is most welcome,

 

The UPS i'm using is Mercury Elite 650 Pro http://www.mercury-pc.com/product-detail.php?productid=987, and I've replaced the stock battery, since it died, with a much bigger 48AH battery. The total power input of my PC at full load is around 320W including the monitor.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

EDIT: Would adding a stabilizer help in any way?

EDIT2: PC usually shuts off when it switches to battery backup when some intensive task like gaming is going on. If the PC is completely idle, it switches to battery just fine. Sometimes it shuts off when it's idle too, but it is a rare occurrence.

[W-L]

-SNIP-

 

It is possible to have compatibility issue with UPS's and PSU's where the PSU will auto shutdown once the battery kick in usually that's cause by the generated sinewave being square but the unit you have is a simulated or stepped sinewave UPS which will help. The main thing I can think of is either the UPS isn't generating a sinewave accurately or has a lot of noise from the inverter changing the DC power from the battery to AC. 

[Redsun20]

It is possible to have compatibility issue with UPS's and PSU's where the PSU will auto shutdown once the battery kick in usually that's cause by the generated sinewave being square but the unit you have is a simulated or stepped sinewave UPS which will help. The main thing I can think of is either the UPS isn't generating a sinewave accurately or has a lot of noise from the inverter changing the DC power from the battery to AC. 

Yeah, I have never heard of Mercury for UPS's, so I have no idea how good/bad they are. However, if you need a UPS, get one from APC

[small2cats]

UPS isn't generating a sinewave accurately or has a lot of noise from the inverter changing the DC power from the battery to AC. 

Yeah I think that may be it, but is there anything I can do to fix this? There are a lot of unexpected power outages in my region and I've suffered from huge data loss in the past because of this. Going without a UPS is basically suicide for my PC.

 

EDIT: Also I think I should mention that usually the PC shuts off when I'm doing some intensive work, like gaming, or watching a HEVC video which stresses the CPU. If the PC is idle, it switches to battery just fine.

[W-L]

Yeah I think that may be it, but is there anything I can do to fix this? There are a lot of unexpected power outages in my region and I've suffered from huge data loss in the past because of this. Going without a UPS is basically suicide for my PC.

 

Not really the only thing you can do is get another UPS or see if you can change the PSU. I've used APC UPS's before on Corsair (Seasonic) PSU's with no problem including networking equipment.

 

One thing I would try is check if the UPS is going into a safe shutdown mode or over current mode which might be possible if it's unable to deliver it's full 650VA since from looking at it it can only provide 390Watts meaning the PF (power factor) is really bad.

[small2cats]

Not really the only thing you can do is get another UPS or see if you can change the PSU. I've used APC UPS's before on Corsair (Seasonic) PSU's with no problem including networking equipment.

 

One thing I would try is check if the UPS is going into a safe shutdown mode or over current mode which might be possible if it's unable to deliver it's full 650VA since from looking at it it can only provide 390Watts meaning the PF (power factor) is really bad.

I just replaced the original battery, since it died, with a much heftier 48A battery. Wouldn't that help with the power factor? TBH I had never ever heard of mercury before and wouldn't have bought the unit if I had any other choice at all. But all that was available was various other models from mercury.

[W-L]

I just replaced the original battery, since it died, with a much heftier 48A battery. Wouldn't that help with the power factor? TBH I had never ever heard of mercury before and wouldn't have bought the unit if I had any other choice at all. But all that was available was various other models from mercury.

 

Power Factor has to do with the load type where it's the ability to provide the full amount or capacity. In theory a larger battery will help but there is probably circuity limiting it since the unit was only designed for 650VA at 390W, giving a PF or 0.6 which isn't that amazing. The PSU does have PFC correction to ensure it can deliver the full 530W which might also be an issue if they are conflicting with each other.

 

It's a fairly complicated topic to explain and I'm not very good at it so this should cover most of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

Edited June 1, 2015 by W-L

[d3sl91]

 

EDIT: Would adding a stabilizer help in any way?

EDIT2: PC usually shuts off when it switches to battery backup when some intensive task like gaming is going on. If the PC is completely idle, it switches to battery just fine. Sometimes it shuts off when it's idle too, but it is a rare occurrence.

 

There is a chance the battery you got is faulty/isnt charging all the way. That is what it sounds like for you. 

 

My UPS and PSU have the issue you describe with bad "dirty" power. The issue is, the cheapest UPS with that capability is triple the cost of the one I purchased..... Basically, all it does is make my PC PSU buzz until it shuts down automatically. As far as I've read - it is fine, it's just noisy. 

[ionbasa]

This is a switching style battery backup. The specs on the UPS state that it switches to battery backup in about 4-8 ms. Its also rated at a peak output power of 390 Watts. 

 

If you're drawing 320 Watts under load, that might be a tad too much for that UPS in my opinion.

 

What happens if you unplug the UPS from the all socket with your PC on? It may be a bad battery or time to buy a better UPS.

[d3sl91]

If you're drawing 320 Watts under load, that might be a tad too much for that UPS in my opinion.

 

I was also thinking this, so, good someone else also noticed the low rating, and wondered if it's just not enough to really power the system under load. 

[small2cats]

I was also thinking this, so, good someone else also noticed the low rating, and wondered if it's just not enough to really power the system under load. 

The previous battery died so I replaced it with a bigger battery. Now I understand that UPS might not be able to output the full potential of that battery but it should be able to do more than 390W now. And really it has happened a lot of times before. I had the old cheapo PSU, power went out while I was gaming, it switched fine. Once I was at a critical point in a game and I played the game for more than 5 minutes just on battery power. Another time the PC was idling and I was asleep, power went out and it ran my PC on battery power for like 25 minutes without dying. The new battery is charging fine, I monitor it periodically with a multimeter, all readings are healthy.

 

This is a switching style battery backup. The specs on the UPS state that it switches to battery backup in about 4-8 ms. Its also rated at a peak output power of 390 Watts. 

 

If you're drawing 320 Watts under load, that might be a tad too much for that UPS in my opinion.

 

What happens if you unplug the UPS from the all socket with your PC on? It may be a bad battery or time to buy a better UPS.

I have replaced the battery, as mentioned in the OP. I have actually tried unplugging when it was idle to check the new battery, it switched fine. But last night I was gaming and power went out, and the PC instantly powered off. Yeah looks like I need a better UPS, and none is available/or is more expensive then my whole PC. I managed to find APC units and the cheapest one costs ~USD780. If I had that much money laying around I would've bought a better rig.

 

EDIT: The wire attached to the battery is actually quite flimsy. Should I try and upgrade it with a bigger one? Will that theoretically help?

[small2cats]

Power Factor has to do with the load type where it's the ability to provide the full amount or capacity. In theory a larger battery will help but there is probably circuity limiting it since the unit was only designed for 650VA at 390W, giving a PF or 0.6 which isn't that amazing. The PSU does have PFC correction to ensure it can deliver the full 530W which might also be an issue if they are conflicting with each other.

 

It's a fairly complicated topic to explain and I'm not very good at it so this should cover most of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

I read the article, I understand it to some extent. 0.6 doesn't seem too great. Oh well, it is really looking like I can't do much about it without replacing the UPS itself or switching back to a shitty PSU. Will replace the flimsy wires connecting the battery to better ones as a last resort to see if it works.

[W-L]

I read the article, I understand it to some extent. 0.6 doesn't seem too great. Oh well, it is really looking like I can't do much about it without replacing the UPS itself or switching back to a shitty PSU. Will replace the flimsy wires connecting the battery to better ones as a last resort to see if it works.

 

I doubt it would affect things much, as of right now there isn't much that can be done with that unit unfortunately.

[small2cats]

UPDATE: opened up and snooped around the UPS today, and saw that the charge current is below 0.5A, that would take ages to charge the battery. Plus I decided to disconnect it from the wall and then try to turn on my PC, as soon as I hit the power button on the PC, the voltage across the battery dropped to like 8V and my PC instantly shut off, which is quite bad for a 48AH 12V battery. Problem seems to be with the charge in the battery, I reckon once the battery is properly charged, it will run the PC without any issue. To avoid getting another UPS entirely I'll give one last shot to buying an external 10A battery charger to keep the battery full. If that doesn't work, well then I guess I'll have to live with it either way.

[zanthros]

You can't just go and replace the ups battery with a higher capacity one, as the built in charging circuit for the ups is made to charge the battery that it comes with. I have been there and done that. FAIL. It was a thought at the time but it did not work out. Also as stated by most members in this post the UPS that you are using is more than likely not capable of running you system when you are using it in a "higher" power usage scenario. Do you have the monitor plugged into the UPS as well? You have to take that into consideration as well. Just my 2 cents.....

 

Even with the higher amperage battery that is charged up you will still only have 390 watts of power under ideal circumstances.

[small2cats]

You can't just go and replace the ups battery with a higher capacity one, as the built in charging circuit for the ups is made to charge the battery that it comes with. I have been there and done that. FAIL. It was a thought at the time but it did not work out. Also as stated by most members in this post the UPS that you are using is more than likely not capable of running you system when you are using it in a "higher" power usage scenario. Do you have the monitor plugged into the UPS as well? You have to take that into consideration as well. Just my 2 cents.....

 

Even with the higher amperage battery that is charged up you will still only have 390 watts of power under ideal circumstances.

Higher capacity battery would ensure that the PC can run on battery backup for a higher amount of time. Shouldn't 390W be enough? I mean including the inefficiency of my PSU and what not, I'm barely even loading up the UPS 80-85% of it's maximum capacity. Shouldn't it be able to handle that much without issues?

[ionbasa]

Higher capacity battery would ensure that the PC can run on battery backup for a higher amount of time. Shouldn't 390W be enough? I mean including the inefficiency of my PSU and what not, I'm barely even loading up the UPS 80-85% of it's maximum capacity. Shouldn't it be able to handle that much without issues?

Upgrading the battery won't affect the power output of the actual UPS. All of that happens via digital circuitry and DC to AC converters. Increasing the battery capacity will only prolong the amount of time the UPS can deliver the rated power.

 

Also, you mentioned the battery voltage dropped to 8v under load. I'm betting the battery is bad. Its hard to tell without an actual battery tester. What's the float voltage (aka EMF) of the battery without anything hooked up to it?

[zanthros]

only way to really tell = wattometer. Then you got to remember the inefficency of the psu...........

[d3sl91]

Higher capacity battery would ensure that the PC can run on battery backup for a higher amount of time. Shouldn't 390W be enough? I mean including the inefficiency of my PSU and what not, I'm barely even loading up the UPS 80-85% of it's maximum capacity. Shouldn't it be able to handle that much without issues?

 

 

Upgrading the battery won't affect the power output of the actual UPS. All of that happens via digital circuitry and DC to AC converters. Increasing the battery capacity will only prolong the amount of time the UPS can deliver the rated power.

 

Also, you mentioned the battery voltage dropped to 8v under load. I'm betting the battery is bad. Its hard to tell without an actual battery tester. What's the float voltage (aka EMF) of the battery without anything hooked up to it?

 

+1, it does not raise how much it can handle, just how long..............maybe.

 

There is also a chance that the circuitry does not know how to charge a larger battery. As in, its designed to calculate when to tell the pc to shut off based on voltage of the battery, and it makes all those calculations absed on the battery it was designed to use. 

 

So, very likely, it just isnt even charging your larger battery fully/properly. Resulting in a damaged battery. 

[small2cats]

Upgrading the battery won't affect the power output of the actual UPS. All of that happens via digital circuitry and DC to AC converters. Increasing the battery capacity will only prolong the amount of time the UPS can deliver the rated power.

 

Also, you mentioned the battery voltage dropped to 8v under load. I'm betting the battery is bad. Its hard to tell without an actual battery tester. What's the float voltage (aka EMF) of the battery without anything hooked up to it?

it's right over 12V. The battery is super fresh, like never been hooked up to anything before at all. I connected it to the UPS and let it charge for 2 days straight. Then hooked up my PC. Now I as I found out, the UPS is not charging the battery so to save the battery I've set it aside for the moment, will buy a proper charger and then test the system again when the battery is at full charge.

 

+1, it does not raise how much it can handle, just how long..............maybe.

 

There is also a chance that the circuitry does not know how to charge a larger battery. As in, its designed to calculate when to tell the pc to shut off based on voltage of the battery, and it makes all those calculations absed on the battery it was designed to use. 

 

So, very likely, it just isnt even charging your larger battery fully/properly. Resulting in a damaged battery. 

Yeah that is it, it isn't charging the battery properly, I found that out. The battery is really super new so I think there wouldn't be much damage at all because the PC switched to battery backup only a couple of times. I've set the battery aside for now and will try to get a charger soon to properly charge the battery, then test it out. The battery it was designed to use had a lot of specs written on it. It was a 12V battery, that's why I replaced it with another 12V battery. But it says the charge current is 2.25A at 13.8-14.4V and I tested it out and it's only giving out like <0.4A which is why the bigger battery is not charging up properly.

[small2cats]

Charged the battery up completely, let it sit overnight and the voltage across the terminals is 13.2V without the charger. Tried turning on my computer again without the UPS being plugged into the mains, and this time there was no voltage drop but the UPS still gave a long beep and shut down. That narrows it down to a faulty component within the UPS itself, really should've claimed the warranty when I had the chance, it expired on 24th May. I got lazy and thought it was just a dead battery, but it was not. Now I have a huge expensive battery which is of no real use anymore. One thing is for sure though, I'd rather throw my money down the toilet than buy a product from mercury again.

 

Thank you everyone for your suggestions!

[d3sl91]

Charged the battery up completely, let it sit overnight and the voltage across the terminals is 13.2V without the charger. Tried turning on my computer again without the UPS being plugged into the mains, and this time there was no voltage drop but the UPS still gave a long beep and shut down. That narrows it down to a faulty component within the UPS itself, really should've claimed the warranty when I had the chance, it expired on 24th May. I got lazy and thought it was just a dead battery, but it was not. Now I have a huge expensive battery which is of no real use anymore. One thing is for sure though, I'd rather throw my money down the toilet than buy a product from mercury again.

 

Thank you everyone for your suggestions!

 

Well, good news that you figured it out, bad news that its not working. 

 

I personally still think its a bit pushing it for how much power it can handle. If you can find another, try a 1000VA unit. I usually find those to work for a gaming rig setup. I have a 1500VA currently powering two computers and networking equipment. I can have internet on power outages for about 5 hours .

[small2cats]

Well, good news that you figured it out, bad news that its not working. 

 

I personally still think its a bit pushing it for how much power it can handle. If you can find another, try a 1000VA unit. I usually find those to work for a gaming rig setup. I have a 1500VA currently powering two computers and networking equipment. I can have internet on power outages for about 5 hours .

Can you suggest some good brands for UPS?

[W-L]

Can you suggest some good brands for UPS?

 

Some good quality ones are APC, Cyberpower, and Tripp Lite. Availability wise I know APC is worldwide but not too sure about the other two.

[small2cats]

Some good quality ones are APC, Cyberpower, and Tripp Lite. Availability wise I know APC is worldwide but not too sure about the other two.

Thank you so much, I found Cyberpower has a dedicated site for Pakistan and even has an authorized distributor in my city, which is great. They also have a range of inverters available, which is awesome since I already invested in a battery. You've really helped me a lot here. Thank you once again!