Smart to start with C++?

[BrettMW]

No it's not. This is a pointless, subjective statement. No language is the "perfect mix" of anything. Requirements differ based on different projects and C++ isn't always the best tool for the job.

 

Oops, left out the "IMO" on that line. Sorry that it wasn't already blatently obvious.</sarcasm>

 

This is hardly a summary. It's useless negativity towards languages you don't like.

Was I intending it to be a factual, informative summary?

 

heck most of the stuff you can do with c++, you can't (efficient) with other languages is not important anymore in most scenarios today anyway ...

Google translator couldn't detect the language on that one sorry, you'll have to let me know what it is.

 

to you maybe.

Have you considered the fact that that your rebuttal also applies to your original statement?

 

No it isn't. It just isn't your narrow opinion.

"

 

no shit it is ...

...

 

and C# isn't an OOP language .... *facepalm*

 

?

 

because c++ is fucking cool, right?

Absolutely.

 

modern OOP ... more like old school OOP. nothing mdoern about C++.

... except the "modern" part. Just because it's a bit too low-level for script kiddies doesn't mean it's not modern.

 

performance ... in most cases Java will match C++.

"in most cases Java will match C++." Exactly. C++ performs better.

 

productivity ... yeah doing unecessary or overcomplicated stuff/routines (compared to other languages) is really productive.

http://bit.ly/O6FlIr

 

the only reason to learn c++ nowadays is if you really need to squeeze out every bit of performance AND want an oopl. raw performancewise there are other/better options. Or you need low level hardware access or absolut memory control.

Computers are getting faster, so lets write bad-performing code in a crappy language and it won't matter. (oh, in case you didn't realize... </sarcasm>)

 

By the way, I found that people that try to defend an older language (like C++) to newer one, are always the kind of people that hate changes. They can't stand the fact that what they are doing might have become outdated. And that is what a good programmer is in my opinion: Open to new technology and a person that can adapt to new techniques fast.

Also keep in mind that programming is an engineer discipline. Which means you have to stay as cost effective as possible. And that is where C# shines.

"hate changes"

http://bit.ly/1GMtSHN

 

This is biased as fuck Lol

No shit.

[MrSuperb]

"and C# isn't an OOP language .... *facepalm*"

...

?

... except the "modern" part. Just because it's a bit too low-level for script kiddies doesn't mean it's not modern.

haha of course we are all script kiddies.

Tell me why you are not writing assembly then? is c++ just high enough for you?

 

"in most cases Java will match C++." Exactly. C++ performs better.

let me rephrase that. In order to match the performance of Java you have to be really great at c++ writing.

In some (very few) cases c++ performs better. In many cases Java or c-sharp will perform better than c++.

 

http://bit.ly/O6FlIr

????

 

Computers are getting faster, so lets write bad-performing code in a crappy language and it won't matter. (oh, in case you didn't realize... </sarcasm>)

There probably is more badly written code in c++, then in java or similiar languages.

and again c++ is NOT better performing than java or other languages.

that might have been the case 20 years ago. 

 

http://bit.ly/1GMtSHN

so with c++11 it got blown up even more ...

it still overcomplicates things.

[MrSuperb]

C# IS AN OOPL

The syntax is practically the same and C# is pretty much as object oriented as Java.

I thought I made that pretty clear.

[RononDex]

 

[...]

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

 

I never meant to say that C++ is worse or any other language is better. It always depends on what you are going to do with that language which makes it a bad choice or a good choice for your cause.

 

While C# is fully OOP, C++ is not, which makes C++ generally adaptable to more different sorts of software architecture.

But with more features / possibilties stuff also gets more complicated for people to learn. The learning curve of C++ is much deeper than the one of C#. You can't deny that.

I know that in C++ you can do the same OOP as in C#. I never denied that C++ is better or worse than C# in any way.

 

What my opinion is though, is that C# because of it's OOP approach and the powerfull .NET framework behind is perfectly to learn programming and get started in the Programmer world.

This is what OP was asking right?

 

C++ is just far too complex for a beginner. And I can't get over the fact that I am finding a lot arrogance in how you post and talk to people that don't code C++. Get over it, If you want to have a mature discussion then do so. What you are doing is far from anything I would consider a mature discussion. So for me there is no point in further discussing with you. If you ever feel like having a mature discussion, feel free to start a real discussion.

[BrettMW]

 

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

 

I never meant to say that C++ is worse or any other language is better. It always depends on what you are going to do with that language which makes it a bad choice or a good choice for your cause.

 

While C# is fully OOP, C++ is not, which makes C++ generally adaptable to more different sorts of software architecture.

But with more features / possibilties stuff also gets more complicated for people to learn. The learning curve of C++ is much deeper than the one of C#. You can't deny that.

I know that in C++ you can do the same OOP as in C#. I never denied that C++ is better or worse than C# in any way.

 

What my opinion is though, is that C# because of it's OOP approach and the powerfull .NET framework behind is perfectly to learn programming and get started in the Programmer world.

This is what OP was asking right?

 

C++ is just far too complex for a beginner. And I can't get over the fact that I am finding a lot arrogance in how you post and talk to people that don't code C++. Get over it, If you want to have a mature discussion then do so. What you are doing is far from anything I would consider a mature discussion. So for me there is no point in further discussing with you. If you ever feel like having a mature discussion, feel free to start a real discussion.

 

 

Now is the point where I would have argued that .NET would restrict people to Windows; but that no longer is true with the open-sourcing of .NET. I agree that C# is certainly one of the better options here. Admittedly I went a bit overboard on my C++ advocation.

 

My concern is that people these days are learning to program whilst being abstracted from what is actually going on behind the scenes; I guess it doesn't really matter though, depending on what you use programming for.

[.:MARK:.]

Well C++ is like an object oriented C, I wouldn't start with it. Take a crack at a C# or Java.

[MrSuperb]

My concern is that people these days are learning to program whilst being abstracted from what is actually going on behind the scenes; I guess it doesn't really matter though, depending on what you use programming for.

omfg ... you are 19 years old and have such concerns

I'd guess that you have tons of experience with lots of different software projects written in various languages.

Let me tell you, that there are lots of REALLY smart people, who translate that not-so-smart coding of those "script-kiddies", to much more efficient programs, than the average smart persons could do in those "superior" languages.

and efficient or good coding is much less about what language you program in and much more about actual good design.

[MrSuperb]

It's totally fine with C++. If the language interested you a lot, it won't be tough to learn. You'd probably enjoy it.

in 90% of the cases you just don't need it (anymore), because there are better alternatives.

edit: I am not saying, that you shouldn't learn or use C++, but rather that IMHO it is just overkill for most stuff and might frustrate lots of people interested starting to learn programming.

[BrettMW]

omfg ... you are 19 years old and have such concerns

I'd guess that you have tons of experience with lots of different software projects written in various languages.

 

I'm not professing to have tons of experience, but I have worked with a lot of different things. A few of the hobby projects I've worked on can be found here http://github.com/brettmw(most notably the OS and script interpreter ).

 

Let me tell you, that there are lots of REALLY smart people, who translate that not-so-smart coding of those "script-kiddies", to much more efficient programs, than the average smart persons could do in those "superior" languages.

Good point. Do you think these "REALLY smart people" learned programming with C# or Visual Basic?

[MrSuperb]

Good point. Do you think these "REALLY smart people" learned programming with C# or Visual Basic?

Most likely they stared with some kind of "easy" language.

[NeatSquidYT]

don't listen to this guy.

Java is shit. 

[Ciccioo]

the OP should just go all 'fuck this shit' and study cobol for the next 5 years

[linuxfan66]

the OP should just go all 'fuck this shit' and study cobol for the next 5 years

That is supposed to be quite profitable due ot limited COBOL programmers now, and large enterprise programs that need maintenance.