Expansion Card Placement Question

[PudgyAstronaut]

I am transitioning into the build phase after 12+ months of shopping! ;-)

Here is the build as it is now, only waiting on a few more things to order before I am ready to actually build (and shipping too): http://pcpartpicker.com/user/PudgyAstronaut/saved/KF22FT

 

So my question is; Initially I assumed that I would pop the GPU card into the top slot because why not. Then I realized I want to add more cards, probably a wireless card, maybe even a sound card at some point.

 

Here is the motherboard for reference: So the top

 

The 2 top PCIe lanes are 3.0x16, and the bottom is 2.0x16 (x4 mode or something I read). It now seems that in order to accommodate a wireless card I need to use the middle PCIe lane (the brown one) for the GPU, and the PCIe x1 slot for the wireless. And since the PCIe 3.0x16 slots operate at x8 when crossfire or SLI is used, I assume that a sound card in the top/tan slot would steal bandwidth from my GPU. Can anyone verify that the tan and brown slots will yield identical performance for the card? Are they both full 3.0x16 when used alone? What happens if I use one for a sound card? Any help is greatly appreciated as this is my first build. I apologize if this is a novice question.

[Sauron]

Use the top slot, no reason to cut bandwidth to the gpu (2.0 4x SHOULDN'T bottleneck but why risk it). Only graphics cards use so much bandwidth that they "steal" it from other lanes, so it's not an issue. You can place the wireless card in any of the 4 slots, so that's not a problem either. Also, don't get an sound card. You'll be perfectly fine with the integrated one. If you want better audio, get better headphones first. If you already have extremely good headphones, get an external dac.

[PudgyAstronaut]

Use the top slot, no reason to cut bandwidth to the gpu (2.0 4x SHOULDN'T bottleneck but why risk it). Only graphics cards use so much bandwidth that they "steal" it from other lanes, so it's not an issue. You can place the wireless card in any of the 4 slots, so that's not a problem either. Also, don't get an sound card. You'll be perfectly fine with the integrated one. If you want better audio, get better headphones first. If you already have extremely good headphones, get an external dac.

 

Here is the specs page, sorry I should have linked it initially: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/GRYPHON_Z97/specifications/

 

Regarding the wireless card, how can I put it in any slot. I can only find PCIe x1 cards for wireless. I was not suggesting that I would put the GPU in the bottom slot (2.0x4), rather than middle which SHOULD be a 3.0x16. The ASUS product page says the top 2 x16 slots would be x8/x8 for a dual config, and that was my concern if I popped in a sound card someday. I won't include that in the initial build though, I will give the integrated a chance first. I do need the GPU and a wireless card though (for those connectivity options/ LAN parties), and it seems I need the PCIe x1 slot for the wireless card. How can you tell if a GPU is bottle necked by the PCIe slot btw?

[KamiKatze]

The middle slot is a 3.0 X8 electrically. You can see that only half of it is actually wired. So GPU goes into the top slot. As for wireless i would put it in the bottom most slot, as it won't 'steal bandwidth' from your GPU. The 1st and 2nd PCIe slot are linked for XFire and SLI, so if you put any kind of expansion card next to your GPU into that slot it will half the bandwidth for your GPU.

 

As far as sound cards are concerned, i would highly recommend to just use the onboard sound and get an external amp/dac combo once you really think you need it.

[Sauron]

Here is the specs page, sorry I should have linked it initially: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/GRYPHON_Z97/specifications/

 

Regarding the wireless card, how can I put it in any slot. I can only find PCIe x1 cards for wireless. I was not suggesting that I would put the GPU in the bottom slot (2.0x4), rather than middle which SHOULD be a 3.0x16. The ASUS product page says the top 2 x16 slots would be x8/x8 for a dual config, and that was my concern if I popped in a sound card someday. I won't include that in the initial build though, I will give the integrated a chance first. I do need the GPU and a wireless card though (for those connectivity options/ LAN parties), and it seems I need the PCIe x1 slot for the wireless card. How can you tell if a GPU is bottle necked by the PCIe slot btw?

PCIe 16x is fully compatible with 1x, just plug the card in at the front and ignore the space left in the connector. PCIe 8x does not bottleneck gpus in any way whatsoever, so even if the slots were to run in 8x mode (and they won't, they only do if you plug gpus in them) you'd be completely fine. You can tell if there is a bottleneck if performance is significantly lower than online benchmarks. again, don't get an audio card.

[mapegl]

Honestly, PCIe 3.0 16x with only 8X electrically is enough for basically any GPU today. (PCIe 2.0 16x about as fast as PCIe 3.0 8x) So you won't really have any performance loss due to using the middle slot. Still, you are able to use the top slot with your GPU and still have two extra expansion cards.....

An advantage of using the middle slot is, that you are not blocking airflow from your GPU with other expansion cards.

 

And one other thing....you have a nice mainboard, don't waste your money of a sound card.........just don't. It just does not make sense for anyone really unless you pay like a fortune for something way superior. If you want to listen to music and have great sound quality, get a nice sound system and play your music there. For gaming, any onboard solution is usually decent, if not good and your board should perform very well!

[PudgyAstronaut]

The middle slot is a 3.0 X8 electrically. You can see that only half of it is actually wired. So GPU goes into the top slot. As for wireless i would put it in the bottom most slot, as it won't 'steal bandwidth' from your GPU. The 1st and 2nd PCIe slot are linked for XFire and SLI, so if you put any kind of expansion card next to your GPU into that slot it will half the bandwidth for your GPU.

 

As far as sound cards are concerned, i would highly recommend to just use the onboard sound and get an external amp/dac combo once you really think you need it.

 

PCIe 16x is fully compatible with 1x, just plug the card in at the front and ignore the space left in the connector. PCIe 8x does not bottleneck gpus in any way whatsoever, so even if the slots were to run in 8x mode (and they won't, they only do if you plug gpus in them) you'd be completely fine. You can tell if there is a bottleneck if performance is significantly lower than online benchmarks. again, don't get an audio card.

 

 

Ok, but if I were to use the other orientation, with the card in that x8 slot, would that be a bottleneck? Sauron seems to say it won't be. I can use the top slot, but since I am also using an NH-D14, it would be nice to have extra clearance and using that other slot might allow my build to look a little nicer. I also didn't know that x16 and x1 are the same (that x1 stuff can go in x16 slots), and had seen some confusing answers counter to that it seemed when I searched for it. So either way I can use the top slot for GPU, extreme bottom slot for Wireless, or the x1 slot for Wireless, and middle x16 slot for GPU. If one has a major advantage I will use that, otherwise I will just go with whatever seems to work nicest for the build interior.

 

Also thanks for the info on Audio. I chose the Gryphon despite being honestly tempted by boards like the Z97M OC Formula and the VII Gene. They marketed their audio features which sounded cool, PCIe also sounded cool, and to a lesser degree high frequency RAM, but I chose the Gryphon for it's durability/warranty and temperature probes and cooling features (fan curves in UEFI, etc). Part of me wanted to get a $20 or $30 sound card to "make it up to myself" for missing out on audio features, but I do appreciate honesty if it really has no value for either quality or feature set.

[mapegl]

Good! Save the money on the audio! Get nice headphones or something! ;-)

I found that leaving space between the cooler of you CPU and the GPU helps, because they don't heat up each other as much. So there is a little benefit to that. Put the wireless card in the 1x slot and you are fine.

 

 

About PCIe, they are all the same basically.........just have different amount of lanes and physically you need something at least as tall as your card, but a 4x card can go into a 4x, 8x and 16x slot. 1x can go into everything, 16x only in 16x.

[Sauron]

Ok, but if I were to use the other orientation, with the card in that x8 slot, would that be a bottleneck? Sauron seems to say it won't be. I can use the top slot, but since I am also using an NH-D14, it would be nice to have extra clearance and using that other slot might allow my build to look a little nicer.

 

You are looking for a problem where there isn't one. PCIe 8x will NOT bottleneck the gpu. However, you should still put the card in the top slot or it will block another 16x slot instead of a 1x. This can be a problem for future upgrades: if you need a card that uses more than 1x you won't be able to fit it in if you block the third 16x slot. You'll be fine with the cooler, don't worry about it.

[PudgyAstronaut]

Good! Save the money on the audio! Get nice headphones or something! ;-)

I found that leaving space between the cooler of you CPU and the GPU helps, because they don't heat up each other as much. So there is a little benefit to that. Put the wireless card in the 1x slot and you are fine.

 

 

About PCIe, they are all the same basically.........just have different amount of lanes and physically you need something at least as tall as your card, but a 4x card can go into a 4x, 8x and 16x slot. 1x can go into everything, 16x only in 16x.

 

Alright cool, so aside from just benchmarking the card in both slots, what's the best way to know for sure if the card is suffering from the x8 electrical connection at all?

[PudgyAstronaut]

You are looking for a problem where there isn't one. PCIe 8x will NOT bottleneck the gpu. However, you should still put the card in the top slot or it will block another 16x slot instead of a 1x. This can be a problem for future upgrades: if you need a card that uses more than 1x you won't be able to fit it in if you block the third 16x slot. You'll be fine with the cooler, don't worry about it.

 

Alright, thanks for the info. So what upgrades would require that slot? I probably won't do a sound card since I have gotten that advice much more than once, and crossfire would use the top two anyway. Granted it would interfere with that x1 if I have wifi in there, but then again if I do crossfire I don't think I can fit a wireless card anyway. I think sticking with 1 powerful card will probably be best for the life of this build, even though my PSU was sized to keep all options opened. I like the point mapegl mentioned about keeping the hot stuff farther apart, and can't foresee an upgrade that would require that bottom slot. Is there something specific you can think of?

[PudgyAstronaut]

Alright cool, so aside from just benchmarking the card in both slots, what's the best way to know for sure if the card is suffering from the x8 electrical connection at all?

 

Nevermind: http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Impact-of-PCI-E-Speed-on-Gaming-Performance-518/ 

[Sauron]

Alright, thanks for the info. So what upgrades would require that slot? I probably won't do a sound card since I have gotten that advice much more than once, and crossfire would use the top two anyway. Granted it would interfere with that x1 if I have wifi in there, but then again if I do crossfire I don't think I can fit a wireless card anyway. I think sticking with 1 powerful card will probably be best for the life of this build, even though my PSU was sized to keep all options opened. I like the point mapegl mentioned about keeping the hot stuff farther apart, and can't foresee an upgrade that would require that bottom slot. Is there something specific you can think of?

 

A PCIe SSD. In a couple of years they will be cheap enough to justify getting them. You can also use it for a recording card or a tv decoder.

[PudgyAstronaut]

A PCIe SSD. In a couple of years they will be cheap enough to justify getting them. You can also use it for a recording card or a tv decoder.

 

Both Valid, I may still set it up in that middle slot, just to try to maximize cooling. I can always take the 2 minutes required to move the card later. I wonder if PCIe SSDs will be a thing since SATA express seems to be accomplishing the same thing though.

[Sauron]

Both Valid, I may still set it up in that middle slot, just to try to maximize cooling. I can always take the 2 minutes required to move the card later. I wonder if PCIe SSDs will be a thing since SATA express seems to be accomplishing the same thing though.

 

SATAe takes up 2 SATA3 ports, and anyway your board doesn't have it right? So don't worry. If you're afraid they'll stop making those, I highly doubt it.

[mapegl]

I doubt they will stop making PCIe SSDs, since those can have access to more lanes AND there is a ton of people including companies with servers out there who may not want to upgrade everything just to get SATAe, so this is a great option.

[PudgyAstronaut]

SATAe takes up 2 SATA3 ports, and anyway your board doesn't have it right? So don't worry. If you're afraid they'll stop making those, I highly doubt it.

 

 

I doubt they will stop making PCIe SSDs, since those can have access to more lanes AND there is a ton of people including companies with servers out there who may not want to upgrade everything just to get SATAe, so this is a great option.

 

Correct, despite being Z97, my board doesn't have it. For today, I am fine with a single SATA 6Gb/s drive, but if prices continue to fall as fast as they have in the last 18 months ($1/gig to under $0.50 a gig), then I might be in the market for more performance out of my storage. And excellent point about industrial applications and the impracticality of upgrading motherboard and CPU just to get better SSD support. If that is the target market for PCIe drives though, I probably won't be able to afford them.

[Sauron]

If that is the target market for PCIe drives though, I probably won't be able to afford them.

Just give them a couple of years ^^