The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Side of Linux - Linux Challenge PT. 2

[Bramimond]

54 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

I dislike the borderline gaslighting that is going on with 'oh, you don't need to know it. But it you better learn it.'. And then only providing tutorials/guides with CLI in 95% of the time.

You don't need to use the CLI. You don't need to use Linux at all. It's all optional. 

 

Still feel that there's some "the Linux community" going on here when there is no such thing. I don't even provide any tutorials. What do you want from me other than to hear your complaints about Linux?

 

Speaking of gaslighting, though, this is how you do it:

 

 

 

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

17 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

You don't need to use the CLI. You don't need to use Linux at all. It's all optional. 

 

Still feel that there's some "the Linux community" going on here when there is no such thing. I don't even provide any tutorials. What do you want from me other than to hear your complaints about Linux?

Now you're actually doing it.

[Lurking]

7 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Again, I don't object to the pro-CLI arguments, but I dislike the borderline gaslighting that is going on with 'oh, you don't need to know it. But it you better learn it.'. And then only providing tutorials/guides with CLI in 95% of the time. How that is not an issue for new users, I don't know.

The point of these CLI recommendations isn't to help new users to use Linux the easy way. The point is to show new users how smart the "old timers" are and what skills they have. They think this is a fraternity where a new member has to prove themselves before they are worthy. The shaming of people by insinuating that people that use GUI, are just "not willing or able to learn new things" is how the old-timers try to show how smart they are. 

 

Because, a smart person would choose to do everything the hard way /s

 

Linux was CLI before Ubuntu, and that was at under 1% marketshare. And there are people who don't like that Linux changed to be more user friendly. It brings in all the "new"  people that ask stupid questions, complain about shortcomings, and demand change. And those CLI users rather go back to 1%, if they just can have "their" niche OS back. At least those CLI users are realistic about what CLI means for market share. Other CLI users are delusional thinking they can enforce the CLI ways,  and somehow get to 10+ % marketshare. 

 

Obviously there also are actual experts that truly can handle CLI. But they aren't vocal and don't have to show all the time how smart they are.

 

But the non-experts just figured out how to copy the first command from LLM. And the first thing they do, is come to forums and tell everyone about how they know everything and how easy it is for them and anyone who isn't willing to do the same, must just be too stupid or lazy. 

 

 

If CLI was easier, 99% of people would naturally gravitate to CLI. We all would use CLI phones, and tablets and CLI car media centers. Humans are creatures of comfort and seek less effort and shortcuts. If CLI was that much easier, people on forums didn't need to promote it all day long. WE already had CLI (MS-DOS) and almost no one used a PC. Then came Windows and everyone dropped MS-DOS in an instant and all the new users now could easily use a PC. 

 

No one has to go around and convince people to use a power drill instead of a hand drill. The easier use and higher speed is so obvious that no one on Reddit or forums needs to tell people all the time to use power tools. People naturally use what is easier. 

 

I wonder why Linux distros even bothers shipping with a DE. A terminal is all that is needed, ever. /s

[razz3r]

14 hours ago, Lurking said:

Glad to hear it works for you. Yeah, the UniversalBlue Linux are the only OS designed for modern users that just want to be users ( and not tinker all day long). Set to auto-updates weekly and you never have to maintain anything.

 

If you are sure you stay with Linux, I'd recommend not using NTFS, but btrfs. If you still use W11 for some games, maybe create a separate NTFS partition? 

 

Who knows how well NTFS will work with future Kernels, new bugs ... just better to use each OS native formats. 

 

 

Yeah, I know, that's why I mentioned ntfs2btrfs - it just allows you to skip redownloading the full 1TB+ lib of games by "converting" your existing partition. Done it, mounted as Steam lib and it worked without any fuss. And you can mount that btrfs in Win with a pretty solid driver available.

And I guess my move to Linux is final and it was easier because I work in IT and manage around 50 linux servers full-stack) It's just gaming that was stopping me and finally we see pretty adequate performance on team green. I just hope VSR will be available sometime soon. Miss it when rewatching some old TV shows that don't have above 720p releases.

Oh and tinkering - it's there if you need it or want something specific. I already hotkeyed at least half a dozen scripts) The most useful and much simpler than Win is audio switch. If you're, like me, switching between headphones and speakers often - will gladly share. All in all - some previously complex stuff involving a buttload of separate apps now often can be done out-of-the-box. For example - VPNs. I work with multiple companies and keeping several VPN clients is a mess on multiple levels. Network Manager just takes care of all of those.

Always loved Linux because you can at any point see what going on, what consumes your resources (btw those consumers don't appear out of thin air) and if something is misbehaving - there's absolutely a log or two that will tell exactly why. Finally having this capability on my main work/gaming rig is freakin awsome)

[razz3r]

6 hours ago, Lurking said:

The shaming of people by insinuating that people that use GUI, are just "not willing or able to learn new things" is how the old-timers try to show how smart they are. 

 

Because, a smart person would choose to do everything the hard way /s

IMHO - CLI vs GUI is another holywar that boils down to a simple conclusion. Choose whatever tool suits you best)
If there's a GUI tool capable of doing what I want how I want - why replace those 3-5 mouse clicks with several CLI commands?
But again, if something, especially frequent, can be done with a one-liner - why bother launching a GUI app and go through menus and whatnot.
And some stuff can be done exclusively in CLI, but for many users it's not even needed nowadays.
 

Quote

No one has to go around and convince people to use a power drill instead of a hand drill. The easier use and higher speed is so obvious that no one on Reddit or forums needs to tell people all the time to use power tools. People naturally use what is easier. 

Pretty good analogy) Just can add that in some cases - a hand drill is still viable for some precision work, for example. But yet again - most users won't need it. Or in that once in a blue moon occasion - borrow from a neighbour (aka ask or google what commands do I run to do X).
 

[Lurking]

4 hours ago, razz3r said:

IMHO - CLI vs GUI is another holywar that boils down to a simple conclusion. Choose whatever tool suits you best)

this is Linux, people argue about bootloaders  

 

In windows, everything a user needs is GUI. I bet every GUI has a CLI equivalent. But unlike Linux, a user googling for a solution, most likely will find the easier GUI way, and not being told to use CLI. 

 

I agree, use what floats your boat. But it is hazardous to recommend CLI to normal (especially new) users. Especially since a person giving advice often doesn't know a lot themselves, and also doesn't know the setup of the person asking a question. 

 

4 hours ago, razz3r said:

And some stuff can be done exclusively in CLI, but for many users it's not even needed nowadays.

Which makes all the CLI advice even worse - it is not needed to use CLI and will just create a hazard for normal users. CLI is very powerful (including the pwoer to destroy the OS). GUI have guardrails. 

 

A good distro will not need CLI. The only function i still haven't found a GUI is setting up the equivalent to "Windows Share". Linux can access a W11 share with GUI, but can't create an equivalent. 

 

4 hours ago, razz3r said:

But again, if something, especially frequent, can be done with a one-liner - why bother launching a GUI app and go through menus and whatnot.

For experts, yes that can be  better. But 99% of users aren't experts. It is like a car mechanic  finds it very easy to replace brakes on a car. But it would be treacherous to advice the general population to do their own brake work. 

[Skyview]

 

Linux powers 100% of the TOP 500 most powerful supercomputers worldwide as of November 2024, maintaining complete market dominance for seven consecutive years since November 2017. The open-source operating system controls all 500 ranked systems, including three exascale machines that exceed one exaflop of computing power. El Capitan leads the rankings at 1.742 exaflops, followed by Frontier at 1.353 exaflops and Aurora at 1.012 exaflops.

 

Source: https://commandlinux.com/statistics/linux-in-top500-supercomputers-statistics/

 

The main issue is that Linus only uses the buggy/broken Linux distros NOT meant for beginners and call it a day, which is really misleading. He could be using a distro meant for beginners (e.g. Linux Mint Cinnamon, Zorin, Fedora, etc.), but for some reason he is afraid of a distro that just works. If Linus reading this: The next time you build a computer, remember that the world's top 500 supercomputers run Linux, not macOS, not Windows.

[Lurking]

All the positives listed in that Mint video can easily be done in any KDE distro as well. In KDE you even can choose if you want to mimic Cinnamon or W11:

KDE also has 10 times the taskbar options Mint has, no telemetry etc.

 

And Mint ships with Libre Office, Gimp and a whole bunch of other applications many users may not want (or may want the newer flatpak versions). I would call Mint pre-installing all that " bloatware".  (I don't know if you have the option to not install bloat, like the Kubuntu installer gives you...and the immutables I know also come without bloat)

 

I don't know why Mint YT videos always have to make it sound like they are THE distro without telemetry. That is pretty normal in Linux. Some telemetry is insignificant and usually opt-in. (actually we all would benefit from telemetry if the developers know what resolution we use, crashes etc...)

 

8 hours ago, Skyview said:

distro meant for beginners (e.g. Linux Mint Cinnamon, Zorin, Fedora, etc.)

They have modern equipment and monitor setups (kind of comes with having a big tech channel, or just being a gamer...) They need modern distros that have modern Kernels/packages, drivers and monitor support (fractional scaling, VRR, mixed resolutions of multiple monitors etc.). Mint and Zorin can't do that. They basically are on W7/W8 level. People coming from W10 or W11 seek the comforts of modern OS. Those " beginner distros" might be good recommendations for older equipment where the user just has an older low-dpi monitor etc. 

 

Fedora comes without codecs/drivers and you need terminal to wrestle with that. I like Fedora as a base and the technology they use. But with their policy of "not including batteries", this isn't the best beginner choice. 

 

They tested Bazzite and Kubuntu 26.04. Those are solid choices for beginners (and advanced users). 

(I'm ignoring the part where Bazzite should put that beta Nvidia version Linus stumbled on, on a completely different download location for developers - all the regular non-beta versions work fine)

[LinuxTamingTrips]

On 5/23/2026 at 2:25 AM, Lurking said:

The point of these CLI recommendations isn't to help new users to use Linux the easy way. The point is to show new users how smart the "old timers" are and what skills they have. They think this is a fraternity where a new member has to prove themselves before they are worthy. The shaming of people by insinuating that people that use GUI, are just "not willing or able to learn new things" is how the old-timers try to show how smart they are. 

 

Because, a smart person would choose to do everything the hard way /s

 

Linux was CLI before Ubuntu, and that was at under 1% marketshare. And there are people who don't like that Linux changed to be more user friendly. It brings in all the "new"  people that ask stupid questions, complain about shortcomings, and demand change. And those CLI users rather go back to 1%, if they just can have "their" niche OS back. At least those CLI users are realistic about what CLI means for market share. Other CLI users are delusional thinking they can enforce the CLI ways,  and somehow get to 10+ % marketshare. 

 

Obviously there also are actual experts that truly can handle CLI. But they aren't vocal and don't have to show all the time how smart they are.

 

But the non-experts just figured out how to copy the first command from LLM. And the first thing they do, is come to forums and tell everyone about how they know everything and how easy it is for them and anyone who isn't willing to do the same, must just be too stupid or lazy. 

 

 

If CLI was easier, 99% of people would naturally gravitate to CLI. We all would use CLI phones, and tablets and CLI car media centers. Humans are creatures of comfort and seek less effort and shortcuts. If CLI was that much easier, people on forums didn't need to promote it all day long. WE already had CLI (MS-DOS) and almost no one used a PC. Then came Windows and everyone dropped MS-DOS in an instant and all the new users now could easily use a PC. 

 

No one has to go around and convince people to use a power drill instead of a hand drill. The easier use and higher speed is so obvious that no one on Reddit or forums needs to tell people all the time to use power tools. People naturally use what is easier. 

 

I wonder why Linux distros even bothers shipping with a DE. A terminal is all that is needed, ever. /s

I don't want to attack you in person, but that post is full of nonsense and own trapped things. 

 

First of all, CLI is mostly used by nerds or advanced users that want to optimize their workflows or people that want to get something solved (and btw it usually starts with "getting something solved"). I don't say there are no people showing their "hacking skills" with some CLI commands while knowing nothing. Just as on Windows there are all kinds of people on Linux as well. From a professional to fully beginners that hardly know more than opening a browser and type something into Google search. The Linux community is usually very helpful and friendly (while in any bigger community there are also assholes). I have the feeling you are taking the "I use Arch btw" meme a bit too serious. 

 

To me it feels like you are on the Dunning Kruger second point on many Linux topics (but I also read some great posts of you).

 

Think this way: for every task there is a CLI command, but often 10 ways to do it via GUI while on any desktop environment you may have 3 ways and every single way is harder explained then just telling a single command. Of course helpers rely on the easy to tell command that works everywhere without asking "are you using GNOME or KDE? GNOME? Okay sorry, I cannot help you, because I only know the way on KDE or CLI, which you don't want to use/learn". GUI is not just harder to explain (think on all the endless Windows tutorials that rely on at least 5 screenshots each to navigate through the GUI), but while Windows has mostly just one GUI (even not much difference between WinXP to Win11 depending on the task), Linux has a punch of different GUIs for the same task. While it is a nice thing in general, for helping people it becomes a nightmare. So CLI is not just easier to solve an issue, but also uniform to all systems (with just a few exceptions).

 

So the main reason people are using and helping with CLI is, because it is the most efficient and simple way to do.

 

But why we do not use CLI for everything? It is simple: GUI has huge advantages for exploration and is an eye-candy thing. Some tasks are also easier via CLI while other tasks are easier via GUI, depending on the complexity of the task and personal use cases or preferences. For example I often navigate via file manager to a path and "open terminal here" instead of "cd /usr/...", because it feels more straight forward. On the other hand cd Git/Proj[Tab] is often faster than opening the file manager. It really depends on many things. A friend who never used Linux before was installing Bazzite on his handheld (3 months after he refused doing so, because he believed Windows is better) and after installing Linux he felt in Love with it, even wanted to switch his PC (I stopped him for some good reasons, but just temporary) and he was using CLI from day one, even before I could say a single word to terminal and stuff. At the point he told me I said "don't use it until I teach you how to use it correctly" (for security reasons).

 

What I am trying to say: there are clearly people never touching CLI, but also those who really think it is a good thing from day one trying out Linux. My friend was no programmer or similar, he is mainly a gamer and music producer and he never complained about trying out something new (it just needs the right time). People are just different and there is no solution fitting all.

 

Also your image is totally wrong. That is no Dunning-Kruger effect. Just read Wikipedia. In reality it looks like this:

The red area is how people overestimate themselves while the green area is the underestimation. It also shows that even the highest overestimation is below the lowest underestimation. Your graphic even tells the opposite with a lot of effort and tells "the early-stage learner is more convinced than an expert" which is not the case.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

KDE also has 10 times the taskbar options Mint has, no telemetry etc.

 

And Mint ships with Libre Office, Gimp and a whole bunch of other applications many users may not want (or may want the newer flatpak versions). I would call Mint pre-installing all that " bloatware". 

Other people call KDE a "bloatware" for its 10 times as much options. And is it really bloatware to have basic things preinstalled on a beginner friendly distro? Why not using Arch if you don't want "bloat"? Most people need Document editors as LibreOffice at least for getting a job and some basic image editing is also what many people do a few times in their lives. If not, well, you can still uninstall it (unlike Edge on Windows, which is real bloatware). And if we are at that point, why not shipping without browser? Firefox is probably not wished and therefor bloat. People may prefer Chrome or a Firefox sibling? Do you really want to install it from repository/Flatpak first? It is probably easier to uninstall the few apps you don't want.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Some telemetry is insignificant and usually opt-in. (actually we all would benefit from telemetry if the developers know what resolution we use, crashes etc...)

Yes and no. I never opt-in for telemetry, because it often also misleads what is actually used. Many enshittifications are also just a result of telemetry, because developers interpret them the wrong way or missing important measurements etc. The best feedback is feedback people write on forums, because it gives deep inside on what people actually encounter or wish (how do you want to measure wishes via telemetry?). I am also tired from being watched everywhere that this is just a "sorry, I just want to keep my piece in mind without thinking about any longer", even if Linux telemetry is not the bad thing as in proprietary software stacks. But so I am taking some time to share things that are important to me or help in other ways. I think this is also a fair way where we all benefit from.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Those " beginner distros" might be good recommendations for older equipment where the user just has an older low-dpi monitor etc. 

Most people in the world are running "older" equipment. We are speaking about equipment of 1-3 years age (depending on kernel). And there are ways to upgrade the kernel to the newest one. If they have a friend who installs Linux anyway, the friend probably knows how to backport a kernel or sure, another distro is also a valid option. The "mimimi, it's old" is just as false as as the Dunning-Kruger image. It is as old or as new as people want to have it. Cinamon will also get Wayland support with time as KDE and GNOME have, but is also able to run multi monitors with different resolutions just fine. The issue is fractional scaling and different refresh rates, which will be solved at some point. Anyway, nobody says Mint or ZorinOS are for every beginner. For some its Bazzite, others Mint, a third group CachyOS and even in some exceptions Debian etc. So any distro "might be a good recommendation", but maybe even not. It heavily depends on its user and with a few questions we can recommend the right choice to any of them.

[Lurking]

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

First of all, CLI is mostly used by nerds or advanced users that want to optimize their workflows or people that want to get something solved (and btw it usually starts with "getting something solved").

We are in agreement here. Except, I think only 1% of the population are in that group. On a forum like this maybe 5%. And many of them may not use Linux for a variety of reasons. The vast majority of users isn't willing to really learn about the PC. By that I mean not pasting what someone else wrote, I mean sitting in front of a PC and solving a problem without help by AI, forums etc. Linux has been CLI for 35+ years and is at 3% market share. If we really want to increase the market share, maybe try something new? All Linux growth (W10 refugees, gamers etc.) has been GUI based. 

 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Of course helpers rely on the easy to tell command that works everywhere without asking "are you using GNOME or KDE? GNOME? Okay sorry, I cannot help you, because I only know the way on KDE or CLI,

If you want to advise a user, wouldn't finding out what distro/DE and release version they have be the first things to ask? And if you are not familiar with their distro/DE, why give advice? How do you know the commands you have them enter are correct if you don't even know their DE? That sounds like most CLI advice i got where most commands don't work at all, or aren't related to the solution. Even better, I make sure to point out i use an immutable distro, and still get the same advice of commands that only work on mutable distros. It is nice people try to help, but if you don't know, bad advice can be worse than no advice. 

 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

there are clearly people never touching CLI,

We are in agreement again, except on the % of users. 99% of users just want to use the app, not the OS. They will complain about something Apple/MS here and there, but if those OS are easier to use, they will keep using them. Plus app availability. 

 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Other people call KDE a "bloatware" for its 10 times as much options.

One mis-conception about KDE, a user does not have to adjust more than a Gnome user can. I spend 5 minutes on a fresh install to do 100% of my preferred settings and make it look like W11. Much less time than W11 setup takes. Some people spend months.

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

And is it really bloatware to have basic things preinstalled on a beginner friendly distro? Why not using Arch if you don't want "bloat"?

One man's bloat is another man's treasure. I get it. Some distros do a good job. Kubuntu gives you three pre-selected options (lean to full bloat). StillOS lets you choose all apps at time of installation. The immutables come just with system tools. Ultimately installation is easy in software center. 

 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Most people need Document editors as LibreOffice at least for getting a job and some basic image editing is also what many people do a few times in their lives.

But they likely want a different software, or a newer version than a repo version in Debian or Mint has. i actually recommend to people to first find most apps they need before going to Linux. Fortunately, most common Linux apps have Windows versions (OnlyOffice, Photopea..) so hopefully users already have an idea what apps they want, which may not match any distro. Even if they don't end up using Linux, they may have found some cheaper or better alternatives to their current software. IMHO, switching apps and OS at the same time makes the process much harder. The transition to Linux has a better success rate if most of the software situation is already resolved. 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

It is probably easier to uninstall the few apps you don't want.

Extra work to separately uninstall all LibreOffice apps. and it will warn you that it also removes dependencies. Now you wonder, if it only removes dependencies LibreOffice needed, or will those dependencies be missing for other software? This is easier with flatpak. And on mutable distros, installing and uninstalling all the time also gums up the OS. 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

unlike Edge on Windows, which is real bloatware

I use Edge exactly once with every W11 installation. How else would I download Chrome in W11?  Next time I create an iso with NTLite, I will include Chrome to really not have to use Edge. I think we have common ground in our hate of Edge. In Linux, they could ship without browser since the software center lets me install browser. No matter what browser they include, it will always be the wrong one. 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

The best feedback is feedback people write on forums, because it gives deep inside on what people actually encounter or wish (how do you want to measure wishes via telemetry?)

Forums are full of user error, and have little information. If developers knew most people use Wayland on high-dpi multi-monitor setups, they could decide to speed up Wayland, for example. Or if they knew only 2 people use 32-bit CPU, they can stop wasting time on 32 bit. Or if they know, everyone uses 8+GB RAM, they can be more brave adding more features. Millions of reasons how a product can get better and resources can be allocated better. Telemetry =/= spying. Or having actual user numbers can convince manufacturers to support Linux. Right now Nvidia or Adobe just guess if Linux is worth anything. But if they knew "so many Linux users use modern Nvidia cards and do creative stuff", they would see there is opportunity. Business decisions are based on numbers. This is why UniversalBlue (click on metrics) have statistics on active users (based on image downloads, not actual telemetry) - that way they can talk to manufacturers or developers and show them how big (or small) Linux is. 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

We are speaking about equipment of 1-3 years age (depending on kernel)

I mainly mean multi-monitor setup. In addition, users of old equipment often collected monitors over the years and have mixed resolutions, vertical monitors etc. Dual monitor is very common, and was 10 years ago. I have 9 year old PCs for Linux, but use 4K monitors and TV. Mint can run on my PC, but not my monitors. 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

And there are ways to upgrade the kernel to the newest one.

Once you do that, you become your own distro-maintainer. Your very well curated Debian all of sudden becomes a FrankenDebian. If you need new stuff, use a modern distro and let those maintainers ensure it all works. Again, I'm talking about new users, not experts here. 

(K)ubuntu is a bit better here. First, they obviously are way ahead of their clones (Zorin, Pop, Mint..), and they bake in new Kernels frequently to not be too far behind out of the box (from user point). 

22 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Cinamon will also get Wayland support with time as KDE and GNOME have, but is also able to run multi monitors with different resolutions just fine. The issue is fractional scaling and different refresh rates, which will be solved at some point.

Will will, will, like I will lose weight and will work on my PhD.... .. I will test it once it exists. For now it doesn't exist. By that time it will have to compete with mature display support of KDE 7 or Gnome 53 or so. Any distro recommendation is based on what exists today. I have no insight, but I think Mint didn't focus well enough the last years. They built a distro based on TWO upstream distros (Ubuntu, and Debian), support three DE (even if Cinnamon is THEIR thing). They are too small to be that wide-spread and now Mint is very stale. 

[Bramimond]

On 5/26/2026 at 5:33 AM, LinuxTamingTrips said:

For example I often navigate via file manager to a path and "open terminal here" instead of "cd /usr/...", because it feels more straight forward. 

I can recommend you to use something like ranger or LF. 

 

 

You can even enable image previews right inside your terminal and other useful things. 

 

Also, fzf makes a huge difference in ease of use, especially for searching your history of commands (Ctrl+R inside the terminal) and navigating to directories (Ctrl+T inside the terminal).

 

[LinuxTamingTrips]

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

and is at 3% market share. If we really want to increase the market share, maybe try something new? All Linux growth (W10 refugees, gamers etc.) has been GUI based. 

Just that this is not true. We are at least at 6%, probably even more market share right now. The stats of gs.statcounter.com where all the media is quoting from is no reliable source any longer (since almost two years). In last 12 months the amount of unknown data is increased by 167% (nearly 20% in total), in my own country even from 2% to 11%. You even say it, there are Win10 refugees, how it can be that data shows 2% loss of market share, while Steam hardware survey increases about 1,5% just in last 6 months? 3% are just wrong.

And by all the newcomers there are a lot of people using CLI beside GUI. I spoke with a lot of them. But of course I also spoke with those that never want to touch any command. I am such a person myself that never touched CLI on Windows for all 20+ years and still using it a lot on Linux, because it is a nice tool in many cases. I never thought I will be a CLI-user, too. But I also know people who will never touch it, so I am not saying you are fully wrong here. Just saying the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

If you want to advise a user, wouldn't finding out what distro/DE and release version they have be the first things to ask?

It highly depends on the issue people are facing. Sometimes it is not related to distro/DE, but maybe systemd or X11 or kernel, which can also be different from what distro may tells us (see kernel backports for Debian). You are not wrong in general and have a point, some commands depend highly on chosen distro/DE. But it is still easier to describe a solution with a single command than how to enable a single setting via GUI (as example).

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

99% of users just want to use the app, not the OS.

And what is CLI? Apps for the terminal.  Using the OS is something different and can be done the GUI or CLI way. But you probably wanted to say "99% of users do not want to use CLI" and I probably would agree with "majority" (if we consider all people from Windows and Mac on top of Linux users), but 1% of potential CLI users is just not enough, because like me, others will explore and enjoy at least some parts of the terminal (no need to like every aspect of it).

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

But they likely want a different software, or a newer version than a repo version in Debian or Mint has. i actually recommend to people to first find most apps they need before going to Linux. Fortunately, most common Linux apps have Windows versions (OnlyOffice, Photopea..) so hopefully users already have an idea what apps they want, which may not match any distro. 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Extra work to separately uninstall all LibreOffice apps. and it will warn you that it also removes dependencies. Now you wonder, if it only removes dependencies LibreOffice needed, or will those dependencies be missing for other software?

For most common software the most recent version doesn't matter. Really. I often do not even realize any difference after multiple version updates, because they are often bug-fixes and refinements of elements I do not often use or where the improvement is so minor that I did not even realize it. And I am an experienced user while you often argue about common people that do know much less than I do. Mint is done for people who want to have a stable system and as easy entry level as possible. Therefor it is required to have most important things preinstalled. People who know what they want can replace it in just a minute or chose a more advanced distro if they are more happy with those. The whole point of distros is to have different levels of "bloat" for different kinds of people (beside the update cycles and maybe some kernel tweaks).

 

Uninstalling dependencies only uninstall unused ones. Apt (in case of Mint) is tracking all dependencies. The dependency hell is gone for many years now and I just run one time into an issue, which was on a Debian testing build (the reason testing exists) on a testing device.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

No matter what browser they include, it will always be the wrong one. 

Yes and no. I also remove Firefox in favor of LibreWolf and Servo in future. But since I know how some people handle computers (some of those who will definitely never touch CLI), they are lost without a preinstalled browser. It does not even matter which browser, as long as they have one ready to use. Firefox is btw a good choice, because if brings some competition over Chromium based browsers and has some entry level privacy without breaking webpages.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Forums are full of user error, and have little information. If developers knew most people use Wayland on high-dpi multi-monitor setups, they could decide to speed up Wayland, for example. Or if they knew only 2 people use 32-bit CPU, they can stop wasting time on 32 bit. Or if they know, everyone uses 8+GB RAM, they can be more brave adding more features. Millions of reasons how a product can get better and resources can be allocated better. Telemetry =/= spying.

[...]

Business decisions are based on numbers.

Forums are full of information and user errors are just as gold to improve the UX as feature requests with detailed explanations are. I am designing UX myself.

 

Why I should bloat a program with unnecessary RAM usage, only because most people have more than 8GB? It is still better to optimize it as far as possible, because even on 32GB systems you have 2GB more threshold if your OS uses 2GB less RAM. I more often saw telemetry decreases the greatness of a product than the other way around, no matter if telemetry is spying or not (which depends on the company/community collecting telemetry). Business decisions are really not a measurement of good decisions.

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Mint can run on my PC, but not my monitors. 

But Debian or Kubuntu can. It is not a distro issue, but a DE one in this case. And at some point it will also be solved for all time. 

 

10 hours ago, Lurking said:

Once you do that, you become your own distro-maintainer. Your very well curated Debian all of sudden becomes a FrankenDebian. If you need new stuff, use a modern distro and let those maintainers ensure it all works. Again, I'm talking about new users, not experts here. 

Backports are done by actual distro-maintainers, not by me etc. I do not need to be an expert. I just tell distro maintainers to deliver me some backports and have no other work to do on top. Frankendebian? We are not speaking about "backporting everything", but the most important stuff. What do you think why backports exist in first place? Right, to benefit from Debians stability while having stuff more up to date that you really care about. Otherwise Debian could just chose to not backport anything except security patches. People often tell nonsense about Debian and stability issues by backporting things. Frankendebian only happens if people backport everything in first place, sometimes even manually unsupported backports. I never had stability issues this way, neither on phone, nor on desktop. I only had issues running Debian testing (which was fine since my usage was testing). People just need to know that too many backports are countering the benefits of Debian and so they should do it as least as possible and only what is really necessary.

 

59 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

I can recommend you to use something like ranger or LF. 

That is indeed cool, but I need file manager for managing more complex tasks in an efficient way anyway. So I also can use it for navigating the terminal if I am too lazy to use cd-command. 

[Lurking]

55 minutes ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Firefox is btw a good choice, because if brings some competition over Chromium based browsers

FYI, Mozilla foundation is mostly financed by Google. It is just an anti-trust lawsuit shield for Google. That way Google can claim they don't have a browser monopoly "because there is Firefox". The moment Firefox would be an actual danger to Chrome, that funding is gone. And the moment Google withdraws funding, Firefox is finished. 

[LinuxTamingTrips]

I am aware of this. And I am also aware that Mozilla itself is no longer trustworthy (still better than Google). But they produce the only engine beside Chromium that can compete. Once Firefox is falling apart, Google will become the single point of failure. I know there is also Apples engine, but it does not really play an important role outside Apples ecosystem.

 

If you ask me: Firefox only needs to exist as long as Servo is not a viable alternative. 

[Ha-Satan]

2 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Just that this is not true.

Yeah, Lurking is a liar and does not debate in good faith. Myself and others have pointed out to Lurking that the claims they make about Linux and how difficult it is to use are frequently wildly overblown and inaccurate, but they persist in making them to such a degree that I've come to the conclusion that they're not just misguided but in fact actively malicious. 

[AbsolutelyNot]

On 5/12/2026 at 10:13 PM, vonKordke said:

One of the issues is the linux community itself and below is plenty of written evidence:

I am somehow not surprised that this has aged like fine wine, and that this thread is still going

[Bramimond]

3 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

I need file manager for managing more complex tasks in an efficient way anyway.

What are those tasks? Ranger is a file manager. Just one used through a terminal.

[Sho2048]

On 5/20/2026 at 11:41 AM, HorseBattery said:

As other people have said, it doesn't have to be that way. Ordinary people can use Windows (and macOS, iOS, Android etc) without using the command line, but powershell etc is still there for advanced users. The same is possible for Linux. You can have your cake and eat it too.

 

Exactly this. Normal users should be able to do basically everything they need without having to use the CLI.

It could be like this, and it is. There's a ton of people working on making it more accessible. Excluding maybe the GNOME project.

 

On 5/23/2026 at 4:25 AM, Lurking said:

The point of these CLI recommendations isn't to help new users to use Linux the easy way. The point is to show new users how smart the "old timers" are and what skills they have. They think this is a fraternity where a new member has to prove themselves before they are worthy. The shaming of people by insinuating that people that use GUI, are just "not willing or able to learn new things" is how the old-timers try to show how smart they are. 

 

Because, a smart person would choose to do everything the hard way /s

 

Linux was CLI before Ubuntu, and that was at under 1% marketshare. And there are people who don't like that Linux changed to be more user friendly. It brings in all the "new"  people that ask stupid questions, complain about shortcomings, and demand change. And those CLI users rather go back to 1%, if they just can have "their" niche OS back. At least those CLI users are realistic about what CLI means for market share. Other CLI users are delusional thinking they can enforce the CLI ways,  and somehow get to 10+ % marketshare. 

 

Obviously there also are actual experts that truly can handle CLI. But they aren't vocal and don't have to show all the time how smart they are.

 

But the non-experts just figured out how to copy the first command from LLM. And the first thing they do, is come to forums and tell everyone about how they know everything and how easy it is for them and anyone who isn't willing to do the same, must just be too stupid or lazy. 

 

 

If CLI was easier, 99% of people would naturally gravitate to CLI. We all would use CLI phones, and tablets and CLI car media centers. Humans are creatures of comfort and seek less effort and shortcuts. If CLI was that much easier, people on forums didn't need to promote it all day long. WE already had CLI (MS-DOS) and almost no one used a PC. Then came Windows and everyone dropped MS-DOS in an instant and all the new users now could easily use a PC. 

 

No one has to go around and convince people to use a power drill instead of a hand drill. The easier use and higher speed is so obvious that no one on Reddit or forums needs to tell people all the time to use power tools. People naturally use what is easier. 

 

I wonder why Linux distros even bothers shipping with a DE. A terminal is all that is needed, ever. /s

I'm sorry a CLI user shoot your dog. It seems like an issue that has stayed with you for many weeks now.

[LinuxTamingTrips]

10 minutes ago, Bramimond said:

What are those tasks? Ranger is a file manager. Just one used through a terminal.

Organizing a lot of files around projects. It is easier to me to manage them in Dolphin directly. CLI would have to be not just as efficient as I am with GUI, but even more efficient, because GUI is also eye-candy and on top I had to learn a new workflow. For simpler stuff it is probably just as fine as GUI. But I replaced other stuff as GUI-git-tools with CLI-git etc. 

[Bramimond]

2 hours ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Organizing a lot of files around projects. It is easier to me to manage them in Dolphin directly.

I feel that you should give this a try. I find file organization a lot easier in ranger. 

Found ranger when I searched for a solution to complex file management that something like Dolphin couldn't really handle. Like working on dozens of projects at the same time, each with their own directory and jumping inbetween.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

8 hours ago, Bramimond said:

I can recommend you to use something like ranger or LF. 

 

 

OK, I will definitely test this at work. Looks really useful, I hate how working in explorer with WSL due to the zone.identifier crap going on.

 

On 5/26/2026 at 5:33 AM, LinuxTamingTrips said:

Think this way: for every task there is a CLI command, but often 10 ways to do it via GUI while on any desktop environment you may have 3 ways and every single way is harder explained then just telling a single command. Of course helpers rely on the easy to tell command that works everywhere without asking "are you using GNOME or KDE? GNOME? Okay sorry, I cannot help you, because I only know the way on KDE or CLI, which you don't want to use/learn". GUI is not just harder to explain (think on all the endless Windows tutorials that rely on at least 5 screenshots each to navigate through the GUI), but while Windows has mostly just one GUI (even not much difference between WinXP to Win11 depending on the task), Linux has a punch of different GUIs for the same task. While it is a nice thing in general, for helping people it becomes a nightmare. So CLI is not just easier to solve an issue, but also uniform to all systems (with just a few exceptions).

 

So the main reason people are using and helping with CLI is, because it is the most efficient and simple way to do.

I mean, this could be alleviated with a more standard approach to distros/GUI, but I guess that discussion was had plenty of times before.

 

I don't know whether this conundrum can be solved, but it seems that the wide range of choice in DE/GUI flavors means that ironically you need to learn and interact with the CLI much more, simply because it is the one thing that is constant. Kinda defeats the point of having the freedom in GUIs in the first place, doesn't it?

[LinuxTamingTrips]

2 hours ago, Bramimond said:

Found ranger when I searched for a solution to complex file management that something like Dolphin couldn't really handle. Like working on dozens of projects at the same time, each with their own directory and jumping inbetween.

I am using Dolphin with dozens of projects at the same time while each project has dozens of different directories (like those to manage git, those to manage the project itself, those who manage files like .xcf/.blend/.ink.svg/..., those who manage references and so on). A single mouse click and all project related folders are opened in a specific order in a separate window, placing folders in split screen where a lot of drag & drop is happening. The toolbar itself contains what I need like switching between detail view (for specific sorting) and grid view (for quick overview and faster selection). Of course I am also using shortcuts as F2 or Cut/Paste/Del/... just as TUI file managers probably also do. On top of it I also can open a file with a specific application with double-click or with another application with middle-mouse-click. To my knowledge KDE is even working towards to make a third application binding possible without "open with" context menu (which I would also benefit a lot from, don't need a 4th method). My desktop also does not need to run lightweight applications - the projects rely on heavy software anyway. 

 

I just don't know how this could be improved. Dolphin is highly customizable and so I customized it to my needs. I just watched a preview video on Ranger and I do not see anything that would improve my workflow. It just looks like it slows down my efficiency much less than the default utils like cd/cp/mv etc, which is probably good for servers that do not run any kind of GUI. But on my desktop? Not really.

 

Just to be clear, I don't think it is a bad tool or that it cannot improve efficiency for some people. It is more a "me" issue. Everyone has different workflows and it is great to have solutions that are fitting each of us. 

 

1 hour ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Kinda defeats the point of having the freedom in GUIs in the first place, doesn't it?

Not really. GUI is for daily usage and I would not want to work with Nautilus on desktop or Dolphin on phone. They shine in different spaces or for different people. Just because CLI has advantages from time to time does not make the freedom of GUI useless. 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

7 minutes ago, LinuxTamingTrips said:

57 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Kinda defeats the point of having the freedom in GUIs in the first place, doesn't it?

Not really. GUI is for daily usage and I would not want to work with Nautilus on desktop or Dolphin on phone. They shine in different spaces or for different people. Just because CLI has advantages from time to time does not make the freedom of GUI useless. 

I agree, I was more hinting at the large amount of different GUIs and flavors of DE and distros. I.e. that having so much choice means that you have to potentially relearn all the stuff anyway, plus any deeper tutorials will be CLI only. Of course, if you are using a single machine or environment long enough that you can customize it to your needs, then it is a totally different question.

 

I just thought more about the average joe moving over, where having the choice between all the DEs might just lead to the opposite of the desired effect (freedom of choice and customization), since they would inevitably funneled into CLI or the most common GUI anyway. Or to put it differently: maybe there is actually a significant benefit in standardizing GUIs?

Just a thought.

[Lurking]

59 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

I don't know whether this conundrum can be solved, but it seems that the wide range of choice in DE/GUI flavors means that ironically you need to learn and interact with the CLI much more, simply because it is the one thing that is constant.

The basic concepts of GUI in different distros are similar or could be. If a user asks about partition mounting in Gnome, point them to Gnome Disk (vs KDE partition manager) and they easily can find out how to use that. One can even install Gnome Disks in KDE in a pinch. 

 

The barrier isn't how to figure out each GUI. Hopefully the GUI tools are intuitive. The barrier is, instead of pointing a user to a GUI, the user gets a wall of CLI commands and has to chase down UUID etc. 

 

And if a user asking advice doesn't provide info on distro and DE, just ask. Don't give advice based on very incomplete info. The same is true outside Linux. Someone asking about an issue in Windows" also needs to clarify if it is W95 or 11. Don't just give advice based on assumptions.

 

(and yes, some GUI could be benefit from improvement, but the standard DE tools usually are pretty good)

[LinuxTamingTrips]

21 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Or to put it differently: maybe there is actually a significant benefit in standardizing GUIs?

Just a thought.

I like your thoughts in general, they bring some great questions. But I don't think standardizing GUI would be a huge benefit, but probably more the opposite. Just think about the GNOME vs KDE fights. GUI tools are designed the way they are, because they have people actually want to using them this or that way.

 

However, some standards are important just as shortcuts like copy/paste/delete/rename/search or how to close or maximize a window.

  

14 minutes ago, Lurking said:

One can even install Gnome Disks in KDE in a pinch. 

Exactly what I do btw, haha. I usually prefer KDE tools, but GNOME Disk utils are just easier and more straight forward to use.