are my 7800x3d temps normal?

[ydoc]

I'm not too experience in monitoring temps but I installed the msi afterburner thing and had my temps monitored and noticed my temps just browsing on google hovers around 47-48C which I think is fine but when I watch youtube Im in the mid to high 50's but I also think some of that temp is from me pulling up the board to check the temps cause It also spikes a few degrees up when I pull it up so it might actually be 50 to mid 50's. When I am gaming I usaully am in the 60's range where I sometimes touch 70-71 but its rare. I was getting worried because now I reinstalled siege to get back into it when I was from console but I noticed that when playing I stay around 69-75 c range and that was with the no limit fps cap cause there is no 240 fps cap. If i cap it I can bring to 70 c around there but its still a few degrees hotter than other games like uncharted 4. Is this fine? 

[filpo]

1 minute ago, ydoc said:

I'm not too experience in monitoring temps but I installed the msi afterburner thing and had my temps monitored and noticed my temps just browsing on google hovers around 47-48C which I think is fine but when I watch youtube Im in the mid to high 50's but I also think some of that temp is from me pulling up the board to check the temps cause It also spikes a few degrees up when I pull it up so it might actually be 50 to mid 50's. When I am gaming I usaully am in the 60's range where I sometimes touch 70-71 but its rare. I was getting worried because now I reinstalled siege to get back into it when I was from console but I noticed that when playing I stay around 69-75 c range and that was with the no limit fps cap cause there is no 240 fps cap. If i cap it I can bring to 70 c around there but its still a few degrees hotter than other games like uncharted 4. Is this fine? 

what's your cpu cooler? and case and fans used?

[Zando_]

70s is ice cold for modern chips at stock clocks, you're fine.

[ydoc]

10 minutes ago, filpo said:

what's your cpu cooler? and case and fans used?

I am using the thermalright phantom spirit 120se and stock fans on the lian li lancool 216

[Agall]

Just now, ydoc said:

I am using the thermalright phantom spirit 120se and stock fans on the lian li lancool 216

Run Cinebench R23, its the best benchmark for seeing if you're within margin. The chip should ride 4.8-4.9GHz all core and get in the ~18k range for points. If not, then you're thermal throttling, but in an all core workload.

Generally, 7000x3D will try to reach a thermal limit, which it can do very easily. The absolute goal would be to get 5.05GHz all core which would maximize the chip's locked 50.5x multiplier. The only way past that is base clock overclocking which is a nightmare in the age of PCIe SSDs.

 

 

[podkall]

8 minutes ago, Zando_ said:

70s is ice cold for modern chips at stock clocks, you're fine.

@ydoc the reason why 70c is "ice cold" is because modern CPUs use variable clock speeds, boosting their clocks sometimes beyond their maximum rated or expected boost clocks, because 70c is not even close to a problematic temperature for Ryzen, especially AM5

 

2 minutes ago, Agall said:

Generally, 7000x3D will try to reach a thermal limit,

I thought 3D chips don't try for thermal limits because of their cache, or is that just AM4?

[Agall]

5 minutes ago, podkall said:

I thought 3D chips don't try for thermal limits because of their cache, or is that just AM4?

The thermal limit is lowered compared to regular 7000 and the 3D v-cache CCDs are locked. R7 3D at 50.5x and R9 3D CCDs at 52.5x. The non-3D R9x3D CCDs are 57.5x but I've seen them boost as high as 5.9GHz, so they're more like a standard Ryzen 7000 CCD but are somewhat held back by the 3D CCD. 

 

They enabled PBO2 on Ryzen 7000x3D as well, which wasn't the case for AM4's 5800x3D. I imagine the 5600x3D and 5700x3D are the same, but I haven't paid much attention to them.

 

They ultimately reach a voltage/current limit that keeps you from going past 4.9GHz all core, since I've down configured my 7950x3D to as low as 2c/4t on CCD0 (3D) to see if I could get it to sustain 5.25GHz, but it can't. The thermal limits created by the 3D v-cache mod are quite limiting, though I imagine that could be solved by a delid (which I've had to stop myself from doing several times). 

 

The best CPU out right now would likely be a delidded 7950x3D with CCD1 disabled, but I'm not ballsy enough to attempt that, even though Noctua makes a delid mount for my NH-D15 and total it would cost about $100, which is entirely reasonable. Please don't make me do it.

[Dedayog]

3 minutes ago, podkall said:

@ydoc the reason why 70c is "ice cold" is because modern CPUs use variable clock speeds, boosting their clocks sometimes beyond their maximum rated or expected boost clocks, because 70c is not even close to a problematic temperature for Ryzen, especially AM5

 

I thought 3D chips don't try for thermal limits because of their cache, or is that just AM4?

X3D won't reach for the sun, correct.  The regular chips will though.

 

[Zando_]

Just now, podkall said:

@ydoc the reason why 70c is "ice cold" is because modern CPUs use variable clock speeds, boosting their clocks sometimes beyond their maximum rated or expected boost clocks, because 70c is not even close to a problematic temperature for Ryzen, especially AM5

Yep. My older intel HEDT chips will sit in the 50s-60s under load on a decent cooler. But they're only boosting to 3.1-3.6GHz allcore, when those chips are actually capable of 4.2-4.5Ghz or higher. I manually push them to those clocks and the temps jump up a lot, into the 70s in games and 80s-90s in the toughest synthetic stress tests.

 

Modern chips are basically doing the overclocking themselves, they come out of the box boosting to 5.0GHz or well above (lots of the higher ones run 6.0 on a few cores), pulling a bunch more current to do so. They're also physically small chips so not much surface area to pull heat out, which results in similarly high temps despite the efficiency gains over older chips. 

[Dedayog]

1 minute ago, Agall said:

The thermal limit is lowered compared to regular 7000 and the 3D v-cache CCDs are locked. R7 3D at 50.5x and R9 3D CCDs at 52.5x. The non-3D R9x3D CCDs are 57.5x but I've seen them boost as high as 5.9GHz, so they're more like a standard Ryzen 7000 CCD but are somewhat held back by the 3D CCD. 

 

They enabled PBO2 on Ryzen 7000x3D as well, which wasn't the case for AM4's 5800x3D. I imagine the 5600x3D and 5700x3D are the same, but I haven't paid much attention to them.

 

They ultimately reach a voltage/current limit that keeps you from going past 4.9GHz all core, since I've down configured my 7950x3D to as low as 2c/4t on CCD0 (3D) to see if I could get it to sustain 5.25GHz, but it can't. The thermal limits created by the 3D v-cache mod are quite limiting, though I imagine that could be solved by a delid (which I've had to stop myself from doing several times). 

For what it's worth, I am able to achieve... so should be doable by others pretty easily as I have only set PBO/CO and no tweaking.

 

7800X3D - PBO -30 all cores, 4.90GHz all core, 5.05GHz single core, 18286 C23 multi, 1779 C23 single

[podkall]

2 minutes ago, Agall said:

They ultimately reach a voltage/current limit

in terms of delivery or safety?

 

1 minute ago, Dedayog said:

X3D won't reach for the sun, correct.  The regular chips will though.

 

exactly, the 3D was what made me confused, though I guess 5-10c isn't really a great difference for average user

 

3 minutes ago, Zando_ said:

Modern chips are basically doing the overclocking themselves, they come out of the box boosting to 5.0GHz or well above (lots of the higher ones run 6.0 on a few cores), pulling a bunch more current to do so. They're also physically small chips so not much surface area to pull heat out, which results in similarly high temps despite the efficiency gains over older chips. 

oh yeah,

 

 

[Agall]

Just now, podkall said:

in terms of delivery or safety?

 

exactly, the 3D was what made me confused, though I guess 5-10c isn't really a great difference for average user

 

oh yeah,

 

 

The temperature limits are a bit more complex as well. The sensor is measuring an indirect temperature while also factoring in an additional two heat transfer layers that the 3D v-cache mod creates. AMD likely calculated that -5C from normal Ryzen 7000 was sufficient, but I suspect that a delid would likely solve this problem entirely.

 

Each of those thermal layers require a difference in temperature, simply removing heat transfer layers will reduce the heat source operating temperature. In the case of 7000x3D, likely to the point where you're not red lining while also maxing the locked multiplier.

 

3 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

For what it's worth, I am able to achieve... so should be doable by others pretty easily as I have only set PBO/CO and no tweaking.

 

7800X3D - PBO -30 all cores, 4.90GHz all core, 5.05GHz single core, 18286 C23 multi, 1779 C23 single

Its getting either 5.05GHz on the 7800x3D or 5.25GHz on the 7950x3D in an 8+0 which would be the goat, but that would likely require a delid. 

 

Kind of surprised that I could get 18469 multi and 1861 single (on CCD0) on R23, but I've assumed that they binned the 7950x3D CCDs to some degree. Maybe your PBO -30mV is a bit aggressive?

[podkall]

4 minutes ago, Agall said:

The temperature limits are a bit more complex as well. The sensor is measuring an indirect temperature while also factoring in an additional two heat transfer layers that the 3D v-cache mod creates. AMD likely calculated that -5C from normal Ryzen 7000 was sufficient, but I suspect that a delid would likely solve this problem entirely.

 

Each of those thermal layers require a difference in temperature, simply removing heat transfer layers will reduce the heat source operating temperature. In the case of 7000x3D, likely to the point where you're not red lining while also maxing the locked multiplier.

so voltage/current limit is just another safety feature?

[Agall]

Just now, podkall said:

so voltage/current limit is just another safety feature?

Yeah, that's downstream/upstream, depending on how you look at it. The voltage problems we all saw with the melting 7000x3D CPUs, current being proportional to its power draw. 7000x3D are wattage and temperature limited which creates voltage/current restrictions.

 

If you remove the temperature limit, you're still hitting a wall with the wattage draw, but the voltage/current restrictions might not be. Really depends on how they designed it, but with them burning up, they probably set a hard voltage limit.

 

"SkatterBencher also posted a screenshot showing up to 5.6 GHz with a voltage set to 1.087V which indicates with proper cooling and more fine tuning there is still a bit more headroom for this impressive processor. The overclocker did not provide much more info on this achievement so it’s possible there is still more testing being done to maintain stability."

 

AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D Gets Overclocked to 5.4 GHz Using EK-Quantum Power Kit Velocity² 360 (thefpsreview.com)

 

Delidding might allow for a ton more performance, especially considering Zen4's optimal performance/watt is in that 105-120W range.

[podkall]

19 minutes ago, Agall said:

Yeah, that's downstream/upstream, depending on how you look at it. The voltage problems we all saw with the melting 7000x3D CPUs, current being proportional to its power draw. 7000x3D are wattage and temperature limited which creates voltage/current restrictions.

 

If you remove the temperature limit, you're still hitting a wall with the wattage draw, but the voltage/current restrictions might not be. Really depends on how they designed it, but with them burning up, they probably set a hard voltage limit.

didn't they burn up on certain boards that had EXPO set up wrong? (from a factory setup not user error)

[Agall]

48 minutes ago, podkall said:

didn't they burn up on certain boards that had EXPO set up wrong? (from a factory setup not user error)

Something along those lines, they had to cap the SoC voltage in order to prevent the issue.

 

“We have root caused the issue and have already distributed a new [AMD Generic Encapsulated Software Architecture] that puts measures in place on certain power rails on AM5 motherboards to prevent the CPU from operating beyond its specification limits, including a cap on SOC voltage at 1.3V.” 

 

Overclocking has already been disabled on Ryzen X3D chips as they utilize a 3D V-cache, which requires a hard-coded voltage limit. Running them at a higher voltage or frequency provides few performance benefits and makes the processors unstable and susceptible to temperature variations, so it’s better not to try and work around that restriction. This fix apparently won’t prevent users from overclocking memory using EXPO or XMP profiles, though, nor should it prevent users from using AMD’s Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO) technology to boost performance.

 

AMD has fixed the issue burning out Ryzen 7000 X3D CPUs - The Verge

[podkall]

2 minutes ago, Agall said:

Something along those lines, they had to cap the SoC voltage in order to prevent the issue.

 

“We have root caused the issue and have already distributed a new [AMD Generic Encapsulated Software Architecture] that puts measures in place on certain power rails on AM5 motherboards to prevent the CPU from operating beyond its specification limits, including a cap on SOC voltage at 1.3V.” 

 

Overclocking has already been disabled on Ryzen X3D chips as they utilize a 3D V-cache, which requires a hard-coded voltage limit. Running them at a higher voltage or frequency provides few performance benefits and makes the processors unstable and susceptible to temperature variations, so it’s better not to try and work around that restriction. This fix apparently won’t prevent users from overclocking memory using EXPO or XMP profiles, though, nor should it prevent users from using AMD’s Precision Boost Overdrive (PBO) technology to boost performance.

 

AMD has fixed the issue burning out Ryzen 7000 X3D CPUs - The Verge

I mean it's pretty valid to restrict overclocking capability on a quite complex chip that has exponential increase in failure that can damage components compared to older CPUs

[Dedayog]

1 hour ago, Agall said:

The temperature limits are a bit more complex as well. The sensor is measuring an indirect temperature while also factoring in an additional two heat transfer layers that the 3D v-cache mod creates. AMD likely calculated that -5C from normal Ryzen 7000 was sufficient, but I suspect that a delid would likely solve this problem entirely.

 

Each of those thermal layers require a difference in temperature, simply removing heat transfer layers will reduce the heat source operating temperature. In the case of 7000x3D, likely to the point where you're not red lining while also maxing the locked multiplier.

 

Its getting either 5.05GHz on the 7800x3D or 5.25GHz on the 7950x3D in an 8+0 which would be the goat, but that would likely require a delid. 

 

Kind of surprised that I could get 18469 multi and 1861 single (on CCD0) on R23, but I've assumed that they binned the 7950x3D CCDs to some degree. Maybe your PBO -30mV is a bit aggressive?

I can play with it a bit and see if an all core -25 or -20 works better, and when I get the time I can play with the per core setup.  

[Agall]

15 hours ago, Dedayog said:

I can play with it a bit and see if an all core -25 or -20 works better, and when I get the time I can play with the per core setup.  

I haven't played with per core myself. I've had complete stability with my +200/-15 setup and I really don't want to delid, but I do.

 

17 hours ago, ydoc said:

I'm not too experience in monitoring temps but I installed the msi afterburner thing and had my temps monitored and noticed my temps just browsing on google hovers around 47-48C which I think is fine but when I watch youtube Im in the mid to high 50's but I also think some of that temp is from me pulling up the board to check the temps cause It also spikes a few degrees up when I pull it up so it might actually be 50 to mid 50's. When I am gaming I usaully am in the 60's range where I sometimes touch 70-71 but its rare. I was getting worried because now I reinstalled siege to get back into it when I was from console but I noticed that when playing I stay around 69-75 c range and that was with the no limit fps cap cause there is no 240 fps cap. If i cap it I can bring to 70 c around there but its still a few degrees hotter than other games like uncharted 4. Is this fine? 

To reiterate for OP, its 3D v-cache, it runs hotter even at low wattage because of the mod AMD does to add that L3 cache. You're going to reach a thermal limit with the chip, especially if you're doing all core workloads. Just how the chip works, unless you delid it (probably).