You can't hang-up on a scammer - relating to a recent WAN show

[JoshTW]

You literally can't hang-up on a scammer if you are using a landline (this is a feature not a bug).

On a recent WAN show they talked about how good some of the phone scams are getting. There suggested action was to hang up and call the bank or institution the call claims to be from. If you are on a land line this is not always an option. I got a scam call where they claimed issues with my bank or credit card account and instructed me to phone the number on the back of the card. I believe they then played a click sound followed by a dial tone sound that stopped when I started dialing. Even though I hung up the phone before dialing the number they did not hang up and forced the call with them to continue. It takes 2 minutes for hanging up the phone to actually end the call (on a landline). One test of this scam being used is to try to phone a friend first (who's voice you know).

This article provides more details.

https://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/2021/10/caution-your-loved-ones-about-the-hang-up-delay-scam/

 

[BillBill]

3 minutes ago, JoshTW said:

You literally can't hang-up on a scammer if you are using a landline (this is a feature not a bug).

On a recent WAN show they talked about how good some of the phone scams are getting. There suggested action was to hang up and call the bank or institution the call claims to be from. If you are on a land line this is not always an option. I got a scam call where they claimed issues with my bank or credit card account and instructed me to phone the number on the back of the card. I believe they then played a click sound followed by a dial tone sound that stopped when I started dialing. Even though I hung up the phone before dialing the number they did not hang up and forced the call with them to continue. It takes 2 minutes for hanging up the phone to actually end the call (on a landline). One test of this scam being used is to try to phone a friend first (who's voice you know).

This article provides more details.

https://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/2021/10/caution-your-loved-ones-about-the-hang-up-delay-scam/

 

Thank you for sharing. Something similar happens at stores. Someone will call a store and try to access the point of sales device. Not sure if it works but not good either way. 

[vf1000ride]

My simple answer is to put them on hold, dial the banking institution, and then transfer the scammer to the bank and let the bank deal with them.  Gotta think smarter than the scammers.

[Needfuldoer]

2 minutes ago, vf1000ride said:

My simple answer is to put them on hold, dial the banking institution, and then transfer the scammer to the bank and let the bank deal with them.  Gotta think smarter than the scammers.

I just play dumb and never answer in the affirmative until they get frustrated and hang up on me. It's more fun, and I think I've been getting fewer scam calls since I started doing that.

 

If you hear that characteristic "blup" sound right after you say something into the phone, it's guaranteed to be a scam. (That must be some free or very easily pirated SIP software phone system transferring to an "agent".)

[BillBill]

3 minutes ago, vf1000ride said:

My simple answer is to put them on hold, dial the banking institution, and then transfer the scammer to the bank and let the bank deal with them.  Gotta think smarter than the scammers.

That might be a bad idea since the bank will identify the number as a customer. 

[kb5zue]

Back when the only phone in the house was connected to the wall and we got a scammer the thing we would do is just put the handset down on the cabinet and turn the stereo on with the volumn set just about as high as it would get.  Sooner or later the scammers just got tired of listening to the music and would not call back.  I have done the same recently with my Samsung S22 Galaxy phone.  Just leave the line open and turn on the music.  Sooner or later they get tired of the music and don't call back.

[Beerzerker]

Used to be with a landline you could hang up, dial your own number, hang up again and your phone would ring, creating a "Closed Loop" to your phone that would cut off anyone that didn't hang up on the other end.

I don't know how it works these days since I haven't had a landline for a very long time now but that was a trick you could do back then at least.

 

[Erioch]

2 hours ago, kb5zue said:

Just leave the line open and turn on the music.  Sooner or later they get tired of the music and don't call back.

10 hours of Nyan cat on Youtube.

[kb5zue]

15 hours ago, Erioch said:

10 hours of Nyan cat on Youtube.

LOL!!!

[Lunar River]

I don't think I've ever had an issue where i couldn't hang up the phone.

 

Must be some weird north american thing..

[tkitch]

5 hours ago, Lunar River said:

I don't think I've ever had an issue where i couldn't hang up the phone.

 

Must be some weird north american thing..

it's not.
On a land line, if you hang up for more than about 2 seconds:  It hangs up.  IDFK Where that "two minutes" idea came from.

[Spotty]

6 hours ago, Lunar River said:

I don't think I've ever had an issue where i couldn't hang up the phone.

 

Must be some weird north american thing..

 

50 minutes ago, tkitch said:

On a land line, if you hang up for more than about 2 seconds:  It hangs up.  IDFK Where that "two minutes" idea came from.

With landlines if you are the receiver of a call there is a delay after you hang up the phone before the call is disconnected. The duration of the delay will vary depending on your telephone provider. It can be anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes before the call is disconnected after the receiver hangs up the phone if the caller keeps the line active. While it's possible that your phone provider disconnects after a few seconds, some providers may keep the call active for up to several minutes.

 

Keeping the call active after the receiver hangs up was originally intended as a feature to allow the receiver to answer a call and then hang up the receiver and pick it up again in another room of the house without the call disconnecting. For example you get a call and you answer it on the phone in the kitchen then realise it's somebody from work calling and you want to take the call in your office instead, you can hang up the kitchen handset and pick up the handset in the office without the call disconnecting. There's no delay when the caller hangs up because the caller is the one being billed for the call by the minute. It disconnects immediately when the caller hangs up so that the caller doesn't get billed for an extra few minutes if the receiver doesn't hang up.

 

The scam was more common a few years ago and in response to the scams [and fewer people using multiple landlines within the home negating the benefits of having a longer call clearing delay] many telephone providers have shortened their call clearing/call disconnect delay down to a few seconds.
Here's an article from 2015 which discusses BT (British Telecom) shortening their call clear delay from 3 minutes down to 10 seconds and then down to 2 seconds in response to the scams.

Quote

Until recently BT’s network would wait between 2 and 3 minutes before initiating call clearing to stop the above from happening, although last year this was reduced to 10 seconds “with an option to reduce it further in the near future if required” (here)

Unfortunately fraudsters have still been using this trick and so the BBC reports that BT has now cut the time to just 2 seconds. Other providers have also made similar tweaks.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2015/11/bt-tweaks-uk-phone-call-clearing-procedure-again-to-stop-fraudster.html

 

 

The "call disconnect delay" scam was a real scam and it was somewhat common up until a few years ago, however it seems to be much less common recently likely due to many telephone providers shortening the call clearing delay in response to the scams as well as scammers moving on to more effective tactics. It is still worth being aware of the scam as even with a short call clearing delay of a few seconds there is still a delay and even just a few seconds can still be enough especially if you're in a panic and hang up the phone and immediately pick it up again to start dialling your bank. From the article above even when the call clearing delay was only 10 seconds the scam was still effective to the point where BT had to shorten it again.

If you're unaware of the call clearing delay your provider uses it's better to assume the call may still be active for up to a few minutes after hanging up.

 

 

ThioJoe has a good video detailing what the scam is and why the hangup delay exists.

 

And here's a news video about the scam which gives an explanation of how it works and has a victim sharing how they lost $20,000 to the scam.

[Kisai]

10 hours ago, Spotty said:

 

With landlines if you are the receiver of a call there is a delay after you hang up the phone before the call is disconnected. The duration of the delay will vary depending on your telephone provider.

 

This is really only a new thing. POTS, before digital lines, the call was always immediately disconnected because the circuit would show a short. When we switched from rotary to touch tone systems, the circuit switching still had to support rotary phones, which was still supported until all the telephone networks switched to digital switching. Then it was only emulated between the customer and the CLEC/ILEC. 

 

When we then switched to "digital telephones" in the last 20 years, that emulation then occurred at the VOIP modem that was in your garage or building's telephone room.

 

The reason there is a "delay" is because of call waiting/call forwarding/three-way calling. Because the way you activate that was to hit the hang up button quickly. This only worked on digital services. If you had a rotary phone it didn't work. It was at one point in time common to have two telephone numbers/lines terminate to the same physical phone, and you paid money for this service.

 

 

10 hours ago, Spotty said:

 

 

It can be anywhere from a few seconds to a few minutes before the call is disconnected after the receiver hangs up the phone if the caller keeps the line active. While it's possible that your phone provider disconnects after a few seconds, some providers may keep the call active for up to several minutes.

 

The reason this is fooling anyone at all is because people who have smartphones and never grew up on landlines don't know what a dial tone sounds like anymore. They are trying to trick you into a three-way-call.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, Spotty said:

Keeping the call active after the receiver hangs up was originally intended as a feature to allow the receiver to answer a call and then hang up the receiver and pick it up again in another room of the house without the call disconnecting. For example you get a call and you answer it on the phone in the kitchen then realise it's somebody from work calling and you want to take the call in your office instead, you can hang up the kitchen handset and pick up the handset in the office without the call disconnecting. There's no delay when the caller hangs up because the caller is the one being billed for the call by the minute. It disconnects immediately when the caller hangs up so that the caller doesn't get billed for an extra few minutes if the receiver doesn't hang up.

It never worked that way everywhere. What you're describing is a "call-on-hold" feature, which is a feature you had to pay for (as part of call waiting), and mostly common in "business" phones/PBX systems.  It was activated by hitting the "Flash" button on a phone, which acts the same as the as hitting the hang up button for a small amount of time. Most people didn't do this, they just put the receiver down, picked up the other extension and then went back and hung up the other one. Usually to switch from a wired line to a cordless extension.

 

 

Here, with Telus, the call was always gone after about 2 seconds unless you were paying for call waiting.

 

With mobile phones, it's pretty obvious when it's a scam call if you're familiar with a certain level of logic as to how phones work.

 

- You will never be called by phone numbers on the same NPA-NXX you don't know. If your phone is 604-555-1234, and you receive a call from 555-9012 you were not expecting, that's likely a scam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_Numbering_Plan_area_codes

- You will never receive a call with a NXX (area code) of 000 or under 200, or 400,520-590,600, and at present any NXX with a 9 as a second digit (eg 290.)

- 555-0100 to 555-0199 are fictitious in all area codes. Most 555 numbers are unassigned other than 555-1212 (which is equal to 411)

- You will also never receive a call from a Caribbean number if you aren't physically there or know someone who lives there, as it will be extortionate long distance to call.

- you will never receive a call from a 800/811/822/833/844/855/866/877/888/899 or a 900 number without the company name displayed on the caller ID

 

Because VoIP services can easily spoof the caller ID, the way this becomes obvious is by looking at the calls missed list and looking at the inconsistency between so-called numbers. Numbers from potentially real people in BC will be "+1 (604) xxx-yyyy", where as fake numbers will show up as "+1 (1) (778) xxx-yyyy" , if you see a 800 number with "Toll Free Serv" then it's pretty likely to be fake.

 

There's also the very obvious, "call your bank/credit card/phone company/hydro/gas/fedex/ups" type of scam, because if you let it go to voice mail, you will hear an incomplete voice mail message with a "press 2 for Mandarin Chinese" in Mandarin. No Canadian service will offer Chinese before French, if at all. Likewise no American company will offer Chinese before Spanish, if at all.

 

I get a lot of the latter fake "parcel" phone calls, and the occasional fake government calls, but because they are using a pretty poor TTS, it's pretty damn obvious.

 

The best rule though, is simply never answer a phone call you're not expecting. If your bank needs you, they will call you, but only during their banking hours, and the caller ID will be the correct TFN.  The problem is these companies got into outsourcing cold-calling sales (particularly TELUS does this) so now you can't trust the reason why they are calling you. I think the last legit person told me they're in Morocco, and their call center was exceptionally noisy. Stuff like this would normally be a cue that they're a scam call center. So always ask where they are before you volunteer information.

 

Landline scams are common because landlines are backwards compatible with devices that don't have caller id and don't have "flash" buttons. So someone with device that doesn't have these, has no means of being able to tell that that phone call from their grandson isn't their grandson because their number isn't in their call directory. That's pretty much how we setup grandma's phone, everyone she knows is in programmed in the phone.

 

[YoungBlade]

The most effective way I've found to deal with scam calls has been to speak another language. I always answer unknown numbers with an ambiguous "Allo?" that is not clearly the standard North American "Hello?" and then I wait for them to start talking. If nothing happens, I will sometimes repeat my "Allo?" a few times.

 

If it's clear once they start talking that this is a scam, then I will apologetically say "Mi pardonpetas, mi ne parolas la anglan" (Esperanto for "I'm sorry, I don't speak English.") and so far, 100% of the time, they either hang up immediately, or say they only speak English and then hang up.

 

I could do this in French instead, but that has a higher risk, as the other party might actually know French. Then again, it would give me some free language practice, so maybe it's not a terrible idea...

[Spotty]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

The reason this is fooling anyone at all is because people who have smartphones and never grew up on landlines don't know what a dial tone sounds like anymore. They are trying to trick you into a three-way-call.

It's not a three-way-call. They're keeping the call active so that when the person picks up the handset and presses the buttons to dial a number it just plays a tone over the active line to the caller. The call the victim attempts to make to their bank never connects because they were already in an active call. It's the same as if you never hang up and just start pushing random buttons on the handset while the call is active.

From the scammers end they just stay on the line when the person hangs up and waits to hear them pick up the handset again and start dialling buttons, then they playing a ringing tong for a few seconds and then pretend to answer the phone as the victims bank.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

This is really only a new thing. POTS, before digital lines, the call was always immediately disconnected because the circuit would show a short. When we switched from rotary to touch tone systems, the circuit switching still had to support rotary phones, which was still supported until all the telephone networks switched to digital switching. Then it was only emulated between the customer and the CLEC/ILEC. 

 

When we then switched to "digital telephones" in the last 20 years, that emulation then occurred at the VOIP modem that was in your garage or building's telephone room.

Not really new. It has been a feature since the 1980s, though probably more widely adopted in the 1990s. Most people have probably grown up with it. I vaguely remember as a kid when we got it in probably the mid 90s and were able to use features like call waiting and 3 way calling, and even then I think we were pretty late to get it. We had two phones on the same line and switching handsets to take the call in another room was definitely something we did, though it would disconnect pretty quickly after you hung up so there was always a chance that it would end the call (though, maybe that was just if we initiated the call, I can't remember). You could make it to the other room in time without it dropping the call, but we normally just left the phone off the hook, picked up the other phone, then yelled at somebody in the other room "I GOT IT YOU CAN HANG UP NOW!!!".

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

It never worked that way everywhere. What you're describing is a "call-on-hold" feature, which is a feature you had to pay for (as part of call waiting), and mostly common in "business" phones/PBX systems.  It was activated by hitting the "Flash" button on a phone, which acts the same as the as hitting the hang up button for a small amount of time. Most people didn't do this, they just put the receiver down, picked up the other extension and then went back and hung up the other one. Usually to switch from a wired line to a cordless extension.

I don't think it's the same thing as call-on-hold. I think it's a separate thing. Though, I don't know enough about telecommunications to really be able support that so perhaps you are right.

Call on hold allows the person to make another call, but when the call is delayed from disconnecting the call is still active. If the person picks up the call resumes and is active, they can't make another call. Any buttons they press would just play an audible tone to the person on the other end (like whenever you have to go through the phone trees pressing 1 or 2 to get to customer support).

Also, if it was just call on hold, then people using call on hold would disconnected when the delay expires. I would assume that call on hold sends a signal specifically telling the line to go on hold but keep the line active. The call clear delay is just no signal from the receiver and a delay before the call is disconnected.

Doesn't seem like it's the same thing, but again I don't know enough about it or what signals are sent for the various functions to really know.

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

-snip a bunch about not answering calls based on the number-

Like you mentioned phone numbers can be easily spoofed.

Since this scam targets landline phones the scammers could theoretically use the area codes of landline numbers to target certain regions and if they are sophisticated that could tailor their scam to each area they are targeting by spoofing a local number, such as the number of the local bank branch. Combined with tailoring the script to the area they are targeting it could be a very convincing scam. I was also thinking earlier that if the scammers were smart they could target area codes in more affluent neighbourhoods that are (presumably) more likely to have credit cards with higher limits and available balances. Though, since these scammers often go for the lowest hanging fruit they're probably just blasting out the calls to as many numbers as possible from a generic spoofed number and taking whoever answers.

 

My landline handset doesn't have caller ID or a display. I just don't answer the phone xD

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Spotty said:

It's not a three-way-call. They're keeping the call active so that when the person picks up the handset and presses the buttons to dial a number it just plays a tone over the active line to the caller. The call the victim attempts to make to their bank never connects because they were already in an active call. It's the same as if you never hang up and just start pushing random buttons on the handset while the call is active.

From the scammers end they just stay on the line when the person hangs up and waits to hear them pick up the handset again and start dialling buttons, then they playing a ringing tong for a few seconds and then pretend to answer the phone as the victims bank.

 

Even if it isn't, you don't typically hear the DTMF tones when you actually initiate a call on a cell phone, but you do if the call is still active. So I find it hard to believe that people would be tricked into doing this without first being tricked into doing a three way call where there is really two scammers involved.

 

On a landline, with people who expect a dial tone when they pick up the phone, yeah I can see how it's possible, but I feel that someone who actually calls their bank or credit union would be familiar with the greeting/hold music, and a scammer would have to have a bunch of these greetings pre-recorded to recognize what number was called. Hence my suggestion that it's a three way call, where they call the real bank but cut in after the bank says "please wait for the next available representative."

 

At any rate it sounds sophisticated, but the amount of people that could fall for this are going to be older people who aren't using smartphones and do not have caller ID. 

 

Like I tell my mom. "Text or email me in advance so I know it's you."

 

[Spotty]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Even if it isn't, you don't typically hear the DTMF tones when you actually initiate a call on a cell phone, but you do if the call is still active. So I find it hard to believe that people would be tricked into doing this without first being tricked into doing a three way call where there is really two scammers involved.

It's a scam that targets landlines. Not mobile phones. On mobile phones the call is disconnected immediately if either party hangs up.

 

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

On a landline, with people who expect a dial tone when they pick up the phone, yeah I can see how it's possible, but I feel that someone who actually calls their bank or credit union would be familiar with the greeting/hold music, and a scammer would have to have a bunch of these greetings pre-recorded to recognize what number was called. Hence my suggestion that it's a three way call, where they call the real bank but cut in after the bank says "please wait for the next available representative."

I don't think I've ever called my bank. Not only would I have absolutely no idea what hold music the bank uses, if I was in a panic thinking my card details had been stolen I wouldn't care what the hold music sounded like. The scammers probably don't even play hold music. They would just answer almost immediately.

Also keep in mind victims are instructed to call the fraud hotline for their bank, not the regular bank customer support number. Most banks will have a dedicated line to call for reporting fraud or stolen cards. Most people probably won't ever call the fraud line. If people got straight through when calling the fraud hotline I don't think most people would consider that suspicious. Even if people did think it was odd that they got straight through to a person they'd probably dismiss those doubts thinking that fraud calls take priority and get put through straight away.

Don't ever underestimate how convincing scammers can be and how easily they can manipulate people in to a state of panic.