decent open-back headphones?

[strawberrygirl]

1 hour ago, rice guru said:

For your budget I would.go for the Beyerdynamic tygr easy to power great for gaming and the sound signature does well with rock and older styles of music. Previously mentioned akg k612 and 702 are also good options buth both can be flat and boring. 

would the apple dongle be enough to power beyerdynamic tygr? it appears to be cheaper than k702

[CTR640]

2 hours ago, strawberrygirl said:

would the apple dongle be enough to power beyerdynamic tygr? it appears to be cheaper than k702

Gaming headsets are trash. 

 

You don't need apple dongle to power the Tygr. 

[Spuriae]

2 hours ago, adm0n said:

While that is true, that is true, before you actually hear the difference, it doesn't really matter (that much). I've been using a pair of HD 599s with motherboard integrated audio for some time and was perfectly content with it. After actually getting a somewhat decent DAC and playing with EQs a bit, I did notice, an improvement. But it wasn't that significant (too me). At least not making me regret not getting the DAC earlier.

 

That being said, I don't really like skimping out on either the Headphones or the DAC, because if they are unevenly paired, you'll want to upgrade at least one part of it, which makes the other e-waste :c

This effect is one of the few characteristics of an amplifier sounding different that reliably holds up in rigorous testing. Agreed that DACs overall usually don't make a huge difference.

 

I don't agree with the idea of splitting an initial budget between headphones and a DAC at the same time. A <$191 headphone from a $9 dongle will usually sound better than a <$100 headphone connected to the nicest DAC and Amp in the world, so the person who spends more on headphones is initially better off.

 

If they spend $200 on an upgrade in the future they'll still have a better overall system ($200 headphone + $200 electronics) than someone who spent $100 on each previously ($200 headphones + $100 electronics or $100 headphone + $200 electronics).

 

2 hours ago, adm0n said:

Where did you get this information. I just checked the specs of the chip in my motherboard (ALC1220) and got this:

Where did you get an ALC1220 datasheet?

 

There are a number of third-party measurements confirming high output impedances on modern motherboards with high-end codecs:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gigabyte-z390-aorus-motherboard-audio-review.13083/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-msi-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon.7138/

https://www.igorslab.de/en/big-real-world-test-with-three-x570-motherboards-in-a-closed-pc-the-truth-about-voltage-regulators-fans-temperatures-and-the-onboard-sound/5/ (The output voltage changes indicate terminating resistors on both the front and back outputs)

 

I tested my own motherboard (Gigabyte X470 Gaming 7) with a 100Ω reference resistor and measured a 75Ω output impedance on the front panel (which is connected to an ALC1220) and 5Ω output impedance on the rear panel (which is connected to a separate op-amp circuit).

 

The real culprit is the circuit design, not the chip. The chip itself is capable of low output impedance, but Realtek's reference designs typically recommend 75Ω terminations on the I/O, including headphone outputs.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, strawberrygirl said:

currently I have hyperx alpha 2, sometimes it feels like music is a bit too close to my ears (soundstage related?) than I would like it to be ^^;
do you think that apple dongle you mentioned would be enough to power k702?

Did you mean HyperX Alpha, or HyperX Cloud 2? Either way, both are fairly similar-sounding and have about 98dB/mW and 60Ω so it doesn't change much.

 

The HyperX Clouds are much more efficient (louder for a given input signal) headphones than the K702, but the dongle has a lower output impedance which lets them run more power into low impedance headphones. Doing the calculations separately for the HyperX connected to a standard ALC892-based motherboard and the K702 connected to the dongle both produced about 105dBSPL maximum (this is a peak value; actual music has a lower average loudness). If you have extra loudness headroom on the HyperX right now, the K702 should get loud enough for you from the dongle.

[rice guru]

5 hours ago, strawberrygirl said:

would the apple dongle be enough to power beyerdynamic tygr? it appears to be cheaper than k702

Yes would be easier to drive than the 702 as well

[adm0n]

5 hours ago, Spuriae said:

I don't agree with the idea of splitting an initial budget between headphones and a DAC at the same time. A <$191 headphone from a $9 dongle will usually sound better than a <$100 headphone connected to the nicest DAC and Amp in the world, so the person who spends more on headphones is initially better off.

I think I worded that poorly, as that is exactly what I meant. I wouldn't want to split my budget between headphones and DAC at this price point. The dongle is an option I didn't know of. So that is a very nice idea. And as an added benefit it will also have other uses, if they ever decide to upgrade.

 

5 hours ago, Spuriae said:

Where did you get an ALC1220 datasheet?

https://www.igorslab.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/ALC1220_VB-DataSheet_0.3.pdf page 94

 

5 hours ago, Spuriae said:

There are a number of third-party measurements confirming high output impedances on modern motherboards with high-end codecs:

These are quite interesting. Thanks for sharing the links. But the two audiosciencereview.com posts state that they are "good enough" for normal users. However they aren't enough for critical listening.

 

The igors lab post specifically mentions: "And please take care to always connect headphones or headsets to the front, otherwise little will become even less."

Which was exactly the opposite for what was working for me. I basically had a way to quite and flat sounding output at the front and a really nice sounding output at the rear panel.

 

 

[Spuriae]

54 minutes ago, adm0n said:

https://www.igorslab.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/ALC1220_VB-DataSheet_0.3.pdf page 94

Thank you so much for this – I didn't know Igor had released the full datasheets.

54 minutes ago, adm0n said:

These are quite interesting. Thanks for sharing the links. But the two audiosciencereview.com posts state that they are "good enough" for normal users. However they aren't enough for critical listening.

The main caveat is that the DAC performance (not driving a headphone) is the portion that is good enough. The headphone amplifier portion (the use case where headphones are plugged into the motherboard directly) is not.

54 minutes ago, adm0n said:

The igors lab post specifically mentions: "And please take care to always connect headphones or headsets to the front, otherwise little will become even less."

Which was exactly the opposite for what was working for me. I basically had a way to quite and flat sounding output at the front and a really nice sounding output at the rear panel.

Yep. All of the motherboards in Igor's testing happened to be connected with resistors on all outputs, and the headphone amplifier outputs connected to the front panel. That's the most common configuration, but not every motherboard follows that approach.

 

Some motherboards have a low impedance amplifier in the rear, which makes it the better headphone output. The ALC1150 also has a differential rear output, which (purely speculation) some manufacturers might have used a proper differential converter for instead of simply leaving one of the poles disconnected.

[adm0n]

42 minutes ago, Spuriae said:

Thank you so much for this – I didn't know Igor had released the full datasheets.

I'm glad if I can help in any way.

 

42 minutes ago, Spuriae said:

The main caveat is that the DAC performance (not driving a headphone) is the portion that is good enough. The headphone amplifier portion (the use case where headphones are plugged into the motherboard directly) is not.

I'm wondering if you actually perceive this as bad sounding, if you don't know what you are listening for, i.e. you are not used to a better setup. If it is the same as for me with the front panel audio, it was noticeably worse.

 

Would it maybe be smart to go with planar magnetic headphones? I've read, that they care very little about high impedance sources and basically sound the same. Or is the sensitivity/efficiency for those to low? If the latter is true, how would you notice that? Would they just not get loud enough or does the sound signature also change?

 

47 minutes ago, Spuriae said:

Yep. All of the motherboards in Igor's testing happened to be connected with resistors on all outputs, and the headphone amplifier outputs connected to the front panel. That's the most common configuration, but not every motherboard follows that approach.

Given that most consumer headphones have low impedance ratings, why do manufacturers go for high impedance outputs even on the ports designed for headphones? Is it cheaper/easier this way, because it suppresses noise more?

 

Thanks for answering all of my questions. Maybe we should not spam this thread with this though ._. if you want, you can also reply to me via a DM.

[Stahlmann]

The AKG K612 Pro would be my recommendation at $200.

 

Here is a snippet out of crinacle's headphone tier list:

 

[strawberrygirl]

9 hours ago, CTR640 said:

Gaming headsets are trash. 

 

You don't need apple dongle to power the Tygr. 

this is uncalled for, don't judge based on budget...

[strawberrygirl]

7 hours ago, rice guru said:

Yes would be easier to drive than the 702 as well

thank you ^^

[strawberrygirl]

thank you @Spuriae and @adm0n for the insight, I will try to make an educated decision based on what you have posted ^^

[adm0n]

21 minutes ago, strawberrygirl said:

thank you @Spuriae and @adm0n for the insight, I will try to make an educated decision based on what you have posted ^^

Also feel free to tell us what you went for after you've decided as well as the reasoning for your decision. Hope you'll find something that you'll like.

[cooky560]

Depending on the sort of sound you like, a wild card might be a Grado Sr125x, they look rubbish, however the sound from them is amazing

[CTR640]

4 hours ago, strawberrygirl said:

this is uncalled for, don't judge based on budget...

It has nothing to do with budget at all.