New SAN Ideas

[MrRowe]

Hello guys, 

 

Here is my issue - I recently started working as a site admin, and I have to cover all the network/bare metal server/VM/storage/backups, etc etc etc. Previously I worked second-line support for about 15 years but never had to cover all these things all of the time and on my own. 

 

I've now been tasked to replace the EOL SAN we currently have. 

 

My question is what technology/software is good to implement/manage? I'm looking for about 16TB of immutable storage but I know very little about immutable storage. 

 

Any help would be most appreciated 

 

Thanks,

 

Mr Rowe

[leadeater]

As a starting point what do you have now?

 

Why immutable, that should be used for backup/archival storage not primary as there are very real practical drawbacks to actual immutable storage (you cannot delete anything outside of lifecycle policy, you can/will run out of storage if you use such a method with primary storage).

[MrRowe]

We currently have a standard HPE storage unit (8TB).

Local SAN to Backup SAN to Off-site SAN backup 

 

Off-site SAN is new and was set up just before I started.

 

Sorry, I should have said live storage and local backup need to be replaced.

 

The backup will need to have immutable storage plus anything else I would like (with your help) 

 

As for live storage, I'm open to suggestions. There is a 3rd party company that I will go to but I was hoping to get someone(s) input on what I need vs what I'd be sold on.

 

Thanks,

 

Mr Rowe

[johnno23]

1 minute ago, MrRowe said:

There is a 3rd party company that I will go to but I was hoping to get someone(s) input on what I need vs what I'd be sold on.

Not going to answer as it is beyond my scope but kudos for asking for info before having a company take advantage and sell you hardware /software solutions.

Not being negative towards any 3rd party company but you will most likely encounter a sales rep on commission not a tech or engineer.

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, MrRowe said:

We currently have a standard HPE storage unit (8TB)

Do you know exactly what it is though, HPE has a huge range of products with different features. Is it a 3PAR or StoreEasy etc?

 

10 minutes ago, MrRowe said:

As for live storage, I'm open to suggestions. There is a 3rd party company that I will go to but I was hoping to get someone(s) input on what I need vs what I'd be sold on.

Personally I would look to NetApp and utilize SnapVault and SnapLock.

 

We have extensively used NetApp between multiple datacenters and utilized SnapVault for backups for many years, it works very well. You can also drive all this with 3rd party backup software or natively within the NetApp tools.

 

There a lots of market options though so exact recommendations would be difficult. 

[MrRowe]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Do you know exactly what it is though, HPE has a huge range of products with different features. Is it a 3PAR or StoreEasy etc?

 

Personally I would look to NetApp and utilize SnapVault and SnapLock.

 

We have extensively used NetApp between multiple datacenters and utilized SnapVault for backups for many years, it works very well. You can also drive all this with 3rd party backup software or natively within the NetApp tools.

 

There a lots of market options though so exact recommendations would be difficult. 

Do you know exactly what it is though, HPE has a huge range of products with different features. Is it a 3PAR or StoreEasy etc? I'd have to check when tomorrow as we're closed today.

 

Personally I would look to NetApp and utilize SnapVault and SnapLock.  - We used Veeam for the backups across multiple sites (UK backups to Spain, Spain to Germany, etc etc) would the "snap" software play nice with it?

Thank you for the help.

 

Thanks,

 

Mr Rowe

[leadeater]

25 minutes ago, MrRowe said:

We used Veeam for the backups across multiple sites (UK backups to Spain, Spain to Germany, etc etc) would the "snap" software play nice with it?

Yes Veeam fully support NetApp integration. 

 

Since you have Veeam you could look at different options for primary and secondary storage. NetApp can be on the higher end of cost and if you don't need all the platform features it offers then something else may be a better fit. For secondary/backup storage you could look at a S3 storage solution that supports object lock/immutability and use Veeam to backup the data independently of storage ecosystem features.

 

As a tip for NetApp and their pricing they have a software license fee based on capacity and controller model. So you pay per 0.1TB (this is one off upfront, or when you extend support) and the rate is based on the model so the higher model you choose the more costly this per 0.1TB cost will be. You can be better off buying 4 A150's rather than 2 A400's for example (A series being all flash).

 

Their FAS product lineup is for mixed HDD and SSD but the per 0.1TB license cost for SSDs is more on the FAS product line than the AFF equivalent model vs equivalent mode.

 

I know sounds complicated but if you get some quotes for different models with the same capacity it'll make more sense.

 

Are you able to share more details about your environment?

• Storage protocols used (iSCSI, NFS, SMB, NVMeoF, SAS, FC)
• Hypervisor (VMware, Hyper-V, Xen, KVM)
• VM storage protocol (see point 1)
• Number of VM hosts
• Number of Physical hosts
• Database servers physical or virtual or mixture of both
• Primary storage replication between sites/countries or only secondary/backup
• Disaster recovery procedure (current and any desires to improvements this) 

As much detail as you can give would really help understand where you are at and what sort of requirements you have. Just make sure to not over share and keep everything as nonspecific as possible i.e. Just stick to products used and how they are used without including company information.

[leadeater]

Also I have used multiple different HPE, Dell, IBM/Lenovo storage solutions as well as Ceph and Gluster. Basically saying I'm not trying to push NetApp or will advise against it if I think there is a better option. It's just what we use now mostly, presence of mind.

[MrRowe]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:55 AM, leadeater said:

Yes Veeam fully support NetApp integration. 

 

Since you have Veeam you could look at different options for primary and secondary storage. NetApp can be on the higher end of cost and if you don't need all the platform features it offers then something else may be a better fit. For secondary/backup storage you could look at a S3 storage solution that supports object lock/immutability and use Veeam to backup the data independently of storage ecosystem features.

 

As a tip for NetApp and their pricing they have a software license fee based on capacity and controller model. So you pay per 0.1TB (this is one off upfront, or when you extend support) and the rate is based on the model so the higher model you choose the more costly this per 0.1TB cost will be. You can be better off buying 4 A150's rather than 2 A400's for example (A series being all flash).

 

Their FAS product lineup is for mixed HDD and SSD but the per 0.1TB license cost for SSDs is more on the FAS product line than the AFF equivalent model vs equivalent mode.

 

I know sounds complicated but if you get some quotes for different models with the same capacity it'll make more sense.

 

Are you able to share more details about your environment?

• Storage protocols used (iSCSI, NFS, SMB, NVMeoF, SAS, FC)
• Hypervisor (VMware, Hyper-V, Xen, KVM)
• VM storage protocol (see point 1)
• Number of VM hosts
• Number of Physical hosts
• Database servers physical or virtual or mixture of both
• Primary storage replication between sites/countries or only secondary/backup
• Disaster recovery procedure (current and any desires to improvements this) 

As much detail as you can give would really help understand where you are at and what sort of requirements you have. Just make sure to not over share and keep everything as nonspecific as possible i.e. Just stick to products used and how they are used without including company information.

Hi,

 

I've attached a couple of pictures for you to check out  - hopefully removed anything that shouldn't be there.

 

 

Storage protocols used: FC 
Number of Physical hosts: 2 physical hosts

Number of VM hosts:  22 VMs hosted.

Hypervisor: vSphere 10. x.x 

Primary storage replication between Veeam - Main storage is in downstairs server room, local backup is upstairs server room - off side is to Spain. We receive backups from Spain and South Africa

Disaster recovery procedure: none..... but I would like something 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Mr Rowe

 

 

 

 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, MrRowe said:

I've attached a couple of pictures for you to check out  - hopefully removed anything that shouldn't be there.

Thanks, helps understand much better. As for the storage protocol I think you have misidentified that, you are using iSCSI rather than FC.

 

HPE Nimble is pretty good so there is always a strong argument to stick with existing technology and just refresh with equivalent newer. Not really much that needs to be improved without any business requirements for it.

 

It is actually possible to go lower end than what you have i.e. NetApp E-Series or Lenovo V3700 which are just re-badged LSI/Broadcom storage arrays and basically all the major brands sell. You'll know, they all look the same and the software does too. I'm guessing but I don't think you are using a lot of the platform features but you might be. For example storage array snapshots, inline deduplication and compression (this you probably are), replication between storage arrays.

 

I'm assuming your Veeam backup repository server is a dedicated server with locally attached disks or a dedicated SAN for it. Veeam has a feature called Hardened Linux Repository which can turn local or presented SAN storage in to an immutable backup repository, it's hardware agnostic so this fits in well with what you already have and are doing and would be a matter of buying new servers with local disks and setting this up. Obviously consult Veeam before doing this, they will offer support and technical advice around such a change at no cost so long as you are still paying your software support.

 

The other path is going a little higher end with something like a NetApp AFF150 for the primary storage and NetApp FAS2720 for backup storage, or two FAS2720 arrays with a few SSDs for caching in the primary array (or utilize Cloud Tier to S3 on this same FAS2720). Then you can setup SnapVault and SnapLock with Veeam integration (or not) in a 'Fan Out' configuration to the local backup array and one or many remote FAS2720 arrays. If you want to up rate your design for a little DR in mind then you can buy your arrays with more capacity and setup SVM DR (Storage Virtual Machine) between primary arrays across different countries and then you can have a fully automated DR failover of all storage including configuration so ready to run right away and have your VMs up and running in a different country if you need that. NetApp has good WAN replication so distance isn't a huge problem. Oh P.S. if going with NetApp switch to NFS instead of iSCSI, little nicer to work with and you can directly see dedup and compression storage savings within VMWare/ESXi which you can't if you use iSCSI (advantages of file vs block storage).

 

My general advice, stick to what you are already doing. It's the safest and quickest path which is already working for you. Just add on minor improvements like the Veeam Hardened Linux Repository or utilize AWS/Azure/Google instead. You can stick with HPE Nimble or move to any other equivalent storage array with iSCSI without much effort. For the most part everyone in the same product segment and price range are all very much the same, just make sure you are comparing and getting shown similar things. Biggest problem I find is getting shown things that just aren't needed or aren't much like what we are already doing i.e. A NetApp AFF150 haha.

[MrRowe]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Thanks, helps understand much better. As for the storage protocol I think you have misidentified that, you are using iSCSI rather than FC.

 

HPE Nimble is pretty good so there is always a strong argument to stick with existing technology and just refresh with equivalent newer. Not really much that needs to be improved without any business requirements for it.

 

It is actually possible to go lower end than what you have i.e. NetApp E-Series or Lenovo V3700 which are just re-badged LSI/Broadcom storage arrays and basically all the major brands sell. You'll know, they all look the same and the software does too. I'm guessing but I don't think you are using a lot of the platform features but you might be. For example storage array snapshots, inline deduplication and compression (this you probably are), replication between storage arrays.

 

I'm assuming your Veeam backup repository server is a dedicated server with locally attached disks or a dedicated SAN for it. Veeam has a feature called Hardened Linux Repository which can turn local or presented SAN storage in to an immutable backup repository, it's hardware agnostic so this fits in well with what you already have and are doing and would be a matter of buying new servers with local disks and setting this up. Obviously consult Veeam before doing this, they will offer support and technical advice around such a change at no cost so long as you are still paying your software support.

 

The other path is going a little higher end with something like a NetApp AFF150 for the primary storage and NetApp FAS2720 for backup storage, or two FAS2720 arrays with a few SSDs for caching in the primary array (or utilize Cloud Tier to S3 on this same FAS2720). Then you can setup SnapVault and SnapLock with Veeam integration (or not) in a 'Fan Out' configuration to the local backup array and one or many remote FAS2720 arrays. If you want to up rate your design for a little DR in mind then you can buy your arrays with more capacity and setup SVM DR (Storage Virtual Machine) between primary arrays across different countries and then you can have a fully automated DR failover of all storage including configuration so ready to run right away and have your VMs up and running in a different country if you need that. NetApp has good WAN replication so distance isn't a huge problem. Oh P.S. if going with NetApp switch to NFS instead of iSCSI, little nicer to work with and you can directly see dedup and compression storage savings within VMWare/ESXi which you can't if you use iSCSI (advantages of file vs block storage).

 

My general advice, stick to what you are already doing. It's the safest and quickest path which is already working for you. Just add on minor improvements like the Veeam Hardened Linux Repository or utilize AWS/Azure/Google instead. You can stick with HPE Nimble or move to any other equivalent storage array with iSCSI without much effort. For the most part everyone in the same product segment and price range are all very much the same, just make sure you are comparing and getting shown similar things. Biggest problem I find is getting shown things that just aren't needed or aren't much like what we are already doing i.e. A NetApp AFF150 haha.

There is a lot here to take in, and firstly I would like to thank you for all your help so far (and any further help)

Once I've (we) decide what to do I can always check with Veeam about the Hardened Linux Repository. The only issue is the guy(s) who set it up don't work here anymore and used their email address to set up the support contracts which is a bit of an annoyance. For any contracts I have set up, I will create/use a generic email/user but sadly not everyone does that.

 

I would love to move to a more cloud storage solution but we have contractual requirements to keep all user/client data on site(s) and are only allowed to backup to other sites we own.......

 

I shall look into the NetApp storage solutions and maybe get some quotes just to check the value against the Nimble storage we have currently. 

 

The HPE Nimble is EOL so I have a choice to replace it (like for like but with more storage) or move to a new platform. I have the freedom to go with "what I think is best".

 

My plan this year is to replace all the infrastructure as it is aged - I believe one of the Cisco stacks in the second server room is over 12 years old and the core switch and both servers are nearing their EOL.

 

There is little to no redundancy which is something I want to get in place and set up before something happens.

 

So if whipping it all out and replacing it with a NetApp solution or just replacing the aging equipment it's not my money.

 

In August I have about 3 weeks of shutdown and that is my window to replace/upgrade/change the backend! 

 

I'm not locked into anything hardware wise although Veeam has been paid for until 2025. So no using windows backup feature for now. 

 

Thanks

 

Mr Rowe

 

[leadeater]

@MrRowe

Also have a look at solutions like Nutanix and Dell EMC VxRAIL. A hyperconverged (HCI) platform may be a better fit for your needs. Nutanix will give you the most complete solution with inbuilt backups and DR capabilities. We have used it for a long time, I think it will fit your needs very well and for a good price.

 

Just make sure to utilize the backup to S3 feature and get your backups off the Nutainx platform (or continue to use Veeam). From there you can pick any S3 storage product that supports Object Lock/Immutability and I think you'll have all the boxes you need ticked plus extra.