Looking for a very good headset for sound tracking

[Oddvar Ashborn]

Hello there fine folks,

 

i've always been using a 5.1 surround system while playing, and i've always been able to track sounds very accurately. Recently though i came across a couple of games where, for some reason, i struggle to do so... and i just can't stand it! Failing for a lack of skill, is one thing, failing cause of my hardware... nope!

So that's the main reason i'm looking for a good headset (or earbuds if all else fail). Problem is, one of the reasons i've always used a 5.1 surround system is that i suffer from cervical/neck pain, so basically after 30-40mins i'm wearing a headset, i get a headache.

Therefore i submit myself to your wisdom and knowledge for a headset capable of accurate sounds tracking (sound quality is important as well but i don't think they vary very much from one another), that is also light!

Thank you all in advance.

P.S. Just to give you a baseline from the past, one headset i used to wear was the Razer Tiamat, and after 30mins or even less, bam, headache.

[191x7]

Do you have a budget in mind?

 

For $50 I'd recommend the Truthear Crinacle Zero IEM-s if you have a good soundcard or amp/dac or the Moondrop LAN if you use onboard Audio.

For $20 I'd say the QKZ x HBB IEM.

For $150 I'd recommend the Sennheiser HD 560s headphones.

 

All of them are considered wallhack-tier when it comes to multiplayer shooters.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

12 hours ago, 191x7 said:

Do you have a budget in mind?

 

For $50 I'd recommend the Truthear Crinacle Zero IEM-s if you have a good soundcard or amp/dac or the Moondrop LAN if you use onboard Audio.

For $20 I'd say the QKZ x HBB IEM.

For $150 I'd recommend the Sennheiser HD 560s headphones.

 

All of them are considered wallhack-tier when it comes to multiplayer shooters.

I gotta say, i love the expression "wallhack-tier" xD Do you yourself vouch for them as well? And i also imagine the sound quality is pretty good on the Sennheiser.

On a side note, what baffles me is how a stereo headset can be as good or even superior to a surround system on the subject of sound/noise tracking!

[cmndr]

22 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

On a side note, what baffles me is how a stereo headset can be as good or even superior to a surround system on the subject of sound/noise tracking!

You have 2 ears. Most of the benefit will come from having 2 good drivers. 

There are arguably SOME benefits to going higher on channel count  for atmos and the like for positioning but that'll be offset by the fact that you're adding in something like 20-30ms delay to the sound after processing by the AVR is done. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

[191x7]

59 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I gotta say, i love the expression "wallhack-tier" xD Do you yourself vouch for them as well? And i also imagine the sound quality is pretty good on the Sennheiser.

On a side note, what baffles me is how a stereo headset can be as good or even superior to a surround system on the subject of sound/noise tracking!

I vouch for them cause I own them, at least most of them, out of those mentioned I don't have the Moondrop Lan and that's just because they are brand new so I didn't have the chance to buy them yet.

 

Hm, you might want to check out Fresh Reviews on youtube, he's a competitive player of APEX and Valorant, former CS pro and he reviews headphones, IEM-s and other peripherals (mice, keyboards, mousepads) especially for multiplayer gaming.

 

Also, if you're going to use decent headphones, I'd recommend connecting them to a decent audio source.

Onboard Realtek ALC892 or ALC887 is terrible, ALC1220 can pass, ALC 2000 and 4000 are OK-ish, most external soundcards arefine, but the best would be a decent AMP&DAC.

 

As for your last quedtion. The answer is simple and consists of two things.

1. You wear the headphones on your ears or in your ears. That's different than speakers.

2. Game audio isn't a recording done with a microphone or two (like music), it's not a single track and it's "mastered" for headphones.

 

Btw there are way better "wallhack tier" headphones and IEM-s out there, but those usually cost a few times more and don't really offer a competitive advantage.

Those that I've mentioned are enough to not throttle your performance and they give you a clear (and huge) advantage over any Razer, Logitech, Roccat, Steelseies, Corsair, Astro and other headsets/headphones.

Example of the pricey ones: Beyerdynamic DT 1990, Sennheiser HD 800s, Xenns Top, Dunu Vulkan, etc. 

[cmndr]

2 hours ago, 191x7 said:

Also, if you're going to use decent headphones, I'd recommend connecting them to a decent audio source.

Onboard Realtek ALC892 or ALC887 is terrible, ALC1220 can pass, ALC 2000 and 4000 are OK-ish, most external soundcards arefine, but the best would be a decent AMP&DAC.

It's probably not worth it to spend on this stuff until you're nearing the $1000 range on total audio budget. 


At least on DACs Tomshardware concluded most people don't need to worry about DACs. Amps could be a different story. 
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

Quote

Anything Above $2 Buys More Features, Not Better Quality

Using world-class headphones, a $2 Realtek integrated audio codec could not be reliably distinguished from the $2000 Benchmark DAC2 HGC in a four-device round-up. Again, all four devices sounded great. 

Using your computer's built in $100+ power supply, which has its power filtered by a $100+ motherboard isn't going to be THAT different from using a standalone amp+dac set up. 

 
From what I can tell there aren't really any blind tests (as in the listener doesn't know which part is more expensive) showing a big jump in quality going from a cheap audio solution to an expensive one (outside of stuff from 20+ years ago where onboard DACs were trash)
I've YET to find an amp or DAC company really pushing that as a selling point. 

 

Don't get me wrong amps CAN matter (if you have to crank things to get enough loudness from your headphones, you're a prime candidate for an amp, your on board sound is likely near its limits) but DACs are pretty low down on the list of things. I'm using a 10ish year old Schiit magni to power some sennheiser HD800 headphones (among the hardest to drive). It's fine. My cheepo 12 year old fiio e7 is also fine. I don't think it makes a different to plug it in other than having a bass boost. 

Don't get me wrong, there ARE instances where VERY CHEAP motherboards can have flawed audio implementations but... 

The forum threads I can find look like this. 
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-blind-test-no-audible-difference-whatsoever.314762/
Google + DDG also kind of show a bunch of "yeah, I can't find anything" forum posts. 


None of the DAC/Amp manufacturers seem keen on doing blind tests and marketing the results. 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

4 hours ago, cmndr said:

You have 2 ears. Most of the benefit will come from having 2 good drivers. 

There are arguably SOME benefits to going higher on channel count  for atmos and the like for positioning but that'll be offset by the fact that you're adding in something like 20-30ms delay to the sound after processing by the AVR is done. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

I do have 2 ears, but having 2 speakers behind you, on your sides, in front, etc, that does provide benefits on a matter of sound tracking, wouldn't you agree?

3 hours ago, 191x7 said:

I vouch for them cause I own them, at least most of them, out of those mentioned I don't have the Moondrop Lan and that's just because they are brand new so I didn't have the chance to buy them yet.

 

Hm, you might want to check out Fresh Reviews on youtube, he's a competitive player of APEX and Valorant, former CS pro and he reviews headphones, IEM-s and other peripherals (mice, keyboards, mousepads) especially for multiplayer gaming.

 

Also, if you're going to use decent headphones, I'd recommend connecting them to a decent audio source.

Onboard Realtek ALC892 or ALC887 is terrible, ALC1220 can pass, ALC 2000 and 4000 are OK-ish, most external soundcards arefine, but the best would be a decent AMP&DAC.

 

As for your last quedtion. The answer is simple and consists of two things.

1. You wear the headphones on your ears or in your ears. That's different than speakers.

2. Game audio isn't a recording done with a microphone or two (like music), it's not a single track and it's "mastered" for headphones.

 

Btw there are way better "wallhack tier" headphones and IEM-s out there, but those usually cost a few times more and don't really offer a competitive advantage.

Those that I've mentioned are enough to not throttle your performance and they give you a clear (and huge) advantage over any Razer, Logitech, Roccat, Steelseies, Corsair, Astro and other headsets/headphones.

Example of the pricey ones: Beyerdynamic DT 1990, Sennheiser HD 800s, Xenns Top, Dunu Vulkan, etc. 

I'm definetly gonna check that guy on YT.

I have SupremeFX S1220A, is that good enough? From what i can see it's pretty close to the ALC1220, a bit better it seems?

Also would and AMP and DAC (don't even know what a DAC is tbh) improve my experience that much? That might sound expensive.

Also #2, from what i can see, the Sennheiser HD560S (the pair most people are suggesting to me) does not have Virtual Surround. Now, from what i've been able to hear, it seems to be pretty relevant. What's your opinion on that? Cause the more i go on, the more i don't know exactly what to do! (In a way

2 hours ago, cmndr said:

From what I can tell there aren't really any blind tests (as in the listener doesn't know which part is more expensive) showing a big jump in quality going from a cheap audio solution to an expensive one

That's too bad, i would love to watch something like that!

[cmndr]

31 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I do have 2 ears, but having 2 speakers behind you, on your sides, in front, etc, that does provide benefits on a matter of sound tracking, wouldn't you agree?

 

Also would and AMP and DAC (don't even know what a DAC is tbh) improve my experience that much? That might sound expensive.
 

Also #2, from what i can see, the Sennheiser HD560S (the pair most people are suggesting to me) does not have Virtual Surround. Now, from what i've been able to hear, it seems to be pretty relevant. What's your opinion on that? Cause the more i go on, the more i don't know exactly what to do! (In a way

That's too bad, i would love to watch something like that!

Most of the positional information in sound comes from the differences in time(amount of lag)/phase(position in the sound wave) when a sound hits your ears. It's a bit finicky for the higher frequencies though. 

DACs are Digital Analog Converters. Much of it is just number crunching. 
The most succinct "debunker" on the need for higher end DACs is this: - https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html
"Anything Above $2 Buys More Features, Not Better Quality"
The title is relatively exaggerated (it's more than $2 to implement a chip well) but gets the point.  

DACs are computer chips. Computer chips are 1,000,000x cheaper than they were 50 years ago. 

An amp takes a signal and makes it stronger. If the amp in your system is strong enough, there's relatively little benefit to making it even stronger (read: pushing so much volume out of your headphones that you damage your hearing). 

The Sennheiser HD560/598 and similar are decent entry level headphones (at least they were back in 2012ish). I got a pair of HD800s 10 years ago and said "I never need to research high end gear again" and mostly stopped researching models. RTINGs has a review on 500 series headphones, which are usually "cheap and gamer focused"
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/compare/sennheiser-hd-599-vs-sennheiser-hd-560s/408/18492?usage=19&threshold=0.10

At the prices you're looking at, you should NOT worry about a DAC or an amplifier, it'd sacrifice too much budget from the most important part - the headphones. You're better off with $500 headphones than $200 headphones with $300 of amp+dac, assuming you didn't go for very high impedance headphones (there's plenty of "easy enough to drive" headphones out there). If you buy headphones that NEED an amp, $100 on the amp is probably more than enough. 


Atmos on headphones is mostly a gimmick. Instead of taking 2 channels of audio, it downmixes multiple channels into 2. Sometimes it's slightly better, sometimes it's worse. It's done in software and works on any headphones. I'd probably leave it off. 

[191x7]

5 hours ago, cmndr said:

It's probably not worth it to spend on this stuff until you're nearing the $1000 range on total audio budget. 


At least on DACs Tomshardware concluded most people don't need to worry about DACs. Amps could be a different story. 
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html

Using your computer's built in $100+ power supply, which has its power filtered by a $100+ motherboard isn't going to be THAT different from using a standalone amp+dac set up. 

 
From what I can tell there aren't really any blind tests (as in the listener doesn't know which part is more expensive) showing a big jump in quality going from a cheap audio solution to an expensive one (outside of stuff from 20+ years ago where onboard DACs were trash)
I've YET to find an amp or DAC company really pushing that as a selling point. 

 

Don't get me wrong amps CAN matter (if you have to crank things to get enough loudness from your headphones, you're a prime candidate for an amp, your on board sound is likely near its limits) but DACs are pretty low down on the list of things. I'm using a 10ish year old Schiit magni to power some sennheiser HD800 headphones (among the hardest to drive). It's fine. My cheepo 12 year old fiio e7 is also fine. I don't think it makes a different to plug it in other than having a bass boost. 

Don't get me wrong, there ARE instances where VERY CHEAP motherboards can have flawed audio implementations but... 

The forum threads I can find look like this. 
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dac-blind-test-no-audible-difference-whatsoever.314762/
Google + DDG also kind of show a bunch of "yeah, I can't find anything" forum posts. 


None of the DAC/Amp manufacturers seem keen on doing blind tests and marketing the results. 

Actually it is. Even a cheap gaming headset like a HyperX Cloud Pro profits from a betterstronger source.

 

The Tom's Hardware article isn't relevant. It's old, the choice of devices is weird, the author isn't an audiophile, I don't see actual measurements taken, etc.

Reminds a lot on most gamer headset reviews in gamer/tech magazines or yt channels (meaning extremely subjective opinions offered without scientific data backing).

 

Have you actually tried a cheaper AMP/DAC combo that's actually good and compared it yourself to other devices?

Many of them fall in the $50-$150 range, certainly not "thousands of dollars".

 

Blind tests like you mention would mean nothing. Most people consider "bass" and "loud" to be good audio. And they come to like what they are used to (cheap headphones, bassy beats audio, low quality streaming music or youtube, onboard, phone speakers, slim TV speakers, ...).

Unless you mean having a few hundred people with great hearing, no bias like mentioned, and understanding of audio (with a qualification!) do it, then it would make sense, but that would be both expensive and hard to do.

 

AMPs don't just matter for high impedance devices but also low impedance devices with high sensitivity too, for example dual driver IEM-s. If the output is poorly matched with the "headphones" there might be a lack of loudness, even a lack of soundstage. This happens with my Asus Xonar U5 soundcard paired with the Truthear Zero IEM-s.

The Xonar is simply "too weak" for the Truthear Zero although they are 10 Ohm 120 dBa sensitivity.

It is not that simple.

 

I see you have a pretty nice audio setup. Have you tried downsizing to some mid-range headphones and trying them out on a few motherboards, a few cheap soundcards (those small rectangles that claim to be a sound adapter) and some cheap USB-C dongles?

 

3 hours ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I do have 2 ears, but having 2 speakers behind you, on your sides, in front, etc, that does provide benefits on a matter of sound tracking, wouldn't you agree?

I'm definetly gonna check that guy on YT.

I have SupremeFX S1220A, is that good enough? From what i can see it's pretty close to the ALC1220, a bit better it seems?

Also would and AMP and DAC (don't even know what a DAC is tbh) improve my experience that much? That might sound expensive.

Also #2, from what i can see, the Sennheiser HD560S (the pair most people are suggesting to me) does not have Virtual Surround. Now, from what i've been able to hear, it seems to be pretty relevant. What's your opinion on that? Cause the more i go on, the more i don't know exactly what to do! (In a way

That's too bad, i would love to watch something like that!

No. Immersion isn't the same as "sound tracking".

 

SupremeFX S1220A is just the fancy Asus name for their motherboards; means just an Realtek 1220 with the Realtek audio console having fancy Asus graphics.

That's fine for the Sennheiser HD 560S and the QKZ x HBB or Moondrop Lan, but it's too weak for the Truthear Zero.

I have the Asus 1220 implementation on a decent motherboard, so I have tried/used the combinations.

But a decent AMP&DAC is noticeably better for the headphones that profit from better sources. Something like the Akliam PD4.

 

DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter. Basically, what makes the digital "audio file" become something speakers can reproduce. It's the sound chip itself.

 

Virtual Surround just means that there's software that compresses audio channels into stereo in a way to simulate real surround. It emulates the surround experience.

And it adds letency, modifies the audio (always a bad thing!) and usually costs additionally (Dolby Atmost for headphones, DTS headphone, Xear3D, etc, but there are free options too like Razer Surround or Windows Sonic for headphones). It's a gimmick that gamers buy into and newbs swear by. But it's actually terrible since the game developers already master the game audio in such a way to offer the player the full sound space. And everything can be done through stereo (and the HRTF) because we do have only 2 ears so our hearing is always Stereo + brain processing. That's why channel separation matters too...

 

3 hours ago, TechlessBro said:

Game sound engines can simulate the way the ear works and the timings from one ear to another. Head Related Transfer Function HTRF if you want to look it all up.

Virtual surround sound is a joke you don’t need it for games, or buy something like DTS app that does it for most headphones.

 

earphones that go in ear are not as good and headphones with open backs. Eg they have little restriction from the speaker driver to the outside of the headphone. They don’t block much external noise either.

If you can’t take any weight then they maybe your own choice and then test them out to find a pair that work for you.
This is a bit of a generalisation but if you have neck pain a pair with less treble or “sparkling top end” would likely be better as harsh sounds tend to aggravate pain.

 

Sennheiser HD600 series would be ideal, very light and super wide sounding so you can pinpoint sounds. The cheaper HD500 series are lightweight too, and all sennheiser that aren’t EPOS or GSP are both very low weight and low clamping force on your head. If the headphones are under 80 ohms then a DAC won’t help very much.

 

FYI if you like bass nothing stops you running a sub and headphones, then you don’t have bass attached to the side of your head. 

True that.

 

And yes, IEM-s can never offer the wideness of open back headphones. But both IEM-s and closed back headphones have a few advantages to some people - although the sound stage seems narrower there's way less sound escaping (others can't hear what you're listening to, more outside noise is blocked, better immersion for immersive games, better experience for movies, etc).

 

As for the weight of the headphones causing neck pain - good audio does not mean heavy. The HD 560s are lightweight. Many other headphones too. And IEM-s are light too.

What makes headphones heavy is the materials used + additional stuff put inside like batteries, receivers, microphones, fancy covers, LED lights, volume rockers, EQ buttons, ...

 

Some would claim the HD 560S should have been a "HD 600 series product" soundwise, but Sennheiser called them a 500 series because they are light and because of the materials used. They punch above their weight class. 

 

Impdeance (resistance) isn't everything. The HD 560s are 120 Ohm yet they are easier to drive than a HyperX Cloud Pro (Takstar pro 80) which is 60 Ohm.

That's because they are more sensitive. Both of them do profit from a better source, but the 560s profit more (the Cloud profits only with loudness , not actual quality).

And the 560s are wired balanced so one can use them on a balanced source (4.4mm or 2.5mm jack) and get the benefits of that.

 

2 hours ago, cmndr said:

Most of the positional information in sound comes from the differences in time(amount of lag)/phase(position in the sound wave) when a sound hits your ears. It's a bit finicky for the higher frequencies though. 

DACs are Digital Analog Converters. Much of it is just number crunching. 
The most succinct "debunker" on the need for higher end DACs is this: - https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-19.html
"Anything Above $2 Buys More Features, Not Better Quality"
The title is relatively exaggerated (it's more than $2 to implement a chip well) but gets the point.  

DACs are computer chips. Computer chips are 1,000,000x cheaper than they were 50 years ago. 

An amp takes a signal and makes it stronger. If the amp in your system is strong enough, there's relatively little benefit to making it even stronger (read: pushing so much volume out of your headphones that you damage your hearing). 

The Sennheiser HD560/598 and similar are decent entry level headphones (at least they were back in 2012ish). I got a pair of HD800s 10 years ago and said "I never need to research high end gear again" and mostly stopped researching models. RTINGs has a review on 500 series headphones, which are usually "cheap and gamer focused"
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/tools/compare/sennheiser-hd-599-vs-sennheiser-hd-560s/408/18492?usage=19&threshold=0.10

At the prices you're looking at, you should NOT worry about a DAC or an amplifier, it'd sacrifice too much budget from the most important part - the headphones. You're better off with $500 headphones than $200 headphones with $300 of amp+dac, assuming you didn't go for very high impedance headphones (there's plenty of "easy enough to drive" headphones out there). If you buy headphones that NEED an amp, $100 on the amp is probably more than enough. 


Atmos on headphones is mostly a gimmick. Instead of taking 2 channels of audio, it downmixes multiple channels into 2. Sometimes it's slightly better, sometimes it's worse. It's done in software and works on any headphones. I'd probably leave it off. 

True.

 

Tomshardware isn't a good source for audio stuff.

 

HD 560s did not exist in 2012.

 

Rtings is not relevant. The difference between a terribly sounding gaming headset and a great sounding headphone there is less than 1 point.

They look at the trees and fail to see the forest.

 

The part about AMP&DAC + headphones combo is also partially wrong.

A $150 headphone on a $50 AMP&DAC that can feed it properly sounds better than a $200 headphone on cheap onboard or even a $500 headphone on a Realtek ALC892.

And it's sad that a $20 IEM like the 7HZ Salnotes zero or QKZ x HBB beats $300 gaming headsets when it comes to both music listening and gaming.

 

 

 

For @Oddvar Ashborn tl;dr

Get some decent headphones. Don't overspend. Avoid gaming headsets.

Get some acceptable IEM-s in the $20-$100 range.

Get a $50-$100 amp&dac (even a Syba Sonic would do, but I'd recommend something like the Akliam PD4, Truthear Shio etc).

Don't bother with virtual surround (unless you want to experiment with it).

Enjoy.

 

Btw check out those channels: Z Reviews, Crinacle Plus, Bad Guy Good Audio reviews, Joshua Valor, The Honest Audiophile, Fresh reviews, Cheapaudioman, Sharur, Gizaudio, AndyAudioVault, Lumerion, Julian Krause.

[pas008]

11 hours ago, TechlessBro said:

 

 

6 hours ago, 191x7 said:

 

vss isnt gimicky

 

game developers cant even release games without bugs what makes you think they can get sound right

i use vss in many games cause i cant pin point location of sounds without it, but many games i dont need it at all many newer ones, but then again i will play early access games too which i do need it at times

 

the game(itself), vss, av receivers, and etc all use algorithms to create the sound so the games sound algorithm is right?

so how is it gimmicky? when it actually does change the sound? we all dont ear completely the same or have same taste in sound

try hesuvi and mess around some, you will hear differences on many games if its sounds different then it might cater to someones tastes

there are many videos out there comparing them many vss, some dont do shit or sound like shit, some enhance, and some games like i said you dont need anything else

fyi i went down that audiophile route and spent lots on dac amps and headphones

still own hd600 he400 original hd558 q701 dt770 plus and owned many others

i play for immersion which is why i also play nvidia surround and i will use vss for main purpose of immersion when needed

 

i been around awhile and i heard many talking shit about atmos until they actually heard it

same with vss, thx certified theaters from back in the day  etc etc

hdmi 1.4 only had what 8 channel audio so how did people have larger channel setups?

 

[cmndr]

12 hours ago, 191x7 said:

-snip

Are you able to provide evidence that, for well thought out, headphone budget ends up better allocated to non-headphone items?

Also, as an aside, a proper AB test would implement level matching and ideally be calibrated with a measurement mic.

For laughs, find ONE single DAC or AMP that a manufacturer has claimed to win a blind test with decent calibration. 
Usually when there IS a winner in a blind test it's a case of "people guessed it sounded better 50.3% of the time" compared to something SUPER cheap (e.g. onboard audio) which only won 49.7% of the time. 

I do want to emphasize that I'm NOT discounting amps for hard to drive headphones. Most headphones aren't hard to drive. Even my HD800 can be driven by something like a fiio e7 with "not awful" results. Jumping to a schiit magni barely helps. And these are among the hardest to drive headphones ever made. 

Even then there were times I was too lazy to plug my stuff into my old work laptop and just ran off of the (very poor) laptop's internal amp. 

[191x7]

Even if the DAC-s were all sounding the same, the rest of the circuitry affects the sound, especially the amplifier. 

You are telling me that the source does not affect the audio (quality) why I know that's not true. And you won't change my mind repeating it a hundred times.

Nor will A/B blind tests replace the measuring by equipment. We are not monkeys, we make sophisticated tools and know how to use them.

 

When's the last time you had your hearing checked?

[Oddvar Ashborn]

On 3/2/2023 at 4:14 AM, TechlessBro said:

Game sound engines can simulate the way the ear works and the timings from one ear to another. Head Related Transfer Function HTRF if you want to look it all up.

Virtual surround sound is a joke you don’t need it for games, or buy something like DTS app that does it for most headphones.

 

earphones that go in ear are not as good and headphones with open backs. Eg they have little restriction from the speaker driver to the outside of the headphone. They don’t block much external noise either.

If you can’t take any weight then they maybe your own choice and then test them out to find a pair that work for you.
This is a bit of a generalisation but if you have neck pain a pair with less treble or “sparkling top end” would likely be better as harsh sounds tend to aggravate pain.

 

Sennheiser HD600 series would be ideal, very light and super wide sounding so you can pinpoint sounds. The cheaper HD500 series are lightweight too, and all sennheiser that aren’t EPOS or GSP are both very low weight and low clamping force on your head. If the headphones are under 80 ohms then a DAC won’t help very much.

 

FYI if you like bass nothing stops you running a sub and headphones, then you don’t have bass attached to the side of your head. 

Since this is basically an experiment cause i've never tried something like this seriously, i've noticed that the HD6xx series is pretty expensive (like 400€) while the HD5xx series is WAY less expensive. is there such an enormous difference or can i go with the HD5xx series like the HD560 that so many have suggested to me? xD

On 3/2/2023 at 8:35 AM, 191x7 said:

Actually it is. Even a cheap gaming headset like a HyperX Cloud Pro profits from a betterstronger source.

 

The Tom's Hardware article isn't relevant. It's old, the choice of devices is weird, the author isn't an audiophile, I don't see actual measurements taken, etc.

Reminds a lot on most gamer headset reviews in gamer/tech magazines or yt channels (meaning extremely subjective opinions offered without scientific data backing).

 

Have you actually tried a cheaper AMP/DAC combo that's actually good and compared it yourself to other devices?

Many of them fall in the $50-$150 range, certainly not "thousands of dollars".

 

Blind tests like you mention would mean nothing. Most people consider "bass" and "loud" to be good audio. And they come to like what they are used to (cheap headphones, bassy beats audio, low quality streaming music or youtube, onboard, phone speakers, slim TV speakers, ...).

Unless you mean having a few hundred people with great hearing, no bias like mentioned, and understanding of audio (with a qualification!) do it, then it would make sense, but that would be both expensive and hard to do.

 

AMPs don't just matter for high impedance devices but also low impedance devices with high sensitivity too, for example dual driver IEM-s. If the output is poorly matched with the "headphones" there might be a lack of loudness, even a lack of soundstage. This happens with my Asus Xonar U5 soundcard paired with the Truthear Zero IEM-s.

The Xonar is simply "too weak" for the Truthear Zero although they are 10 Ohm 120 dBa sensitivity.

It is not that simple.

 

I see you have a pretty nice audio setup. Have you tried downsizing to some mid-range headphones and trying them out on a few motherboards, a few cheap soundcards (those small rectangles that claim to be a sound adapter) and some cheap USB-C dongles?

 

No. Immersion isn't the same as "sound tracking".

 

SupremeFX S1220A is just the fancy Asus name for their motherboards; means just an Realtek 1220 with the Realtek audio console having fancy Asus graphics.

That's fine for the Sennheiser HD 560S and the QKZ x HBB or Moondrop Lan, but it's too weak for the Truthear Zero.

I have the Asus 1220 implementation on a decent motherboard, so I have tried/used the combinations.

But a decent AMP&DAC is noticeably better for the headphones that profit from better sources. Something like the Akliam PD4.

 

DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter. Basically, what makes the digital "audio file" become something speakers can reproduce. It's the sound chip itself.

 

Virtual Surround just means that there's software that compresses audio channels into stereo in a way to simulate real surround. It emulates the surround experience.

And it adds letency, modifies the audio (always a bad thing!) and usually costs additionally (Dolby Atmost for headphones, DTS headphone, Xear3D, etc, but there are free options too like Razer Surround or Windows Sonic for headphones). It's a gimmick that gamers buy into and newbs swear by. But it's actually terrible since the game developers already master the game audio in such a way to offer the player the full sound space. And everything can be done through stereo (and the HRTF) because we do have only 2 ears so our hearing is always Stereo + brain processing. That's why channel separation matters too...

 

True that.

 

And yes, IEM-s can never offer the wideness of open back headphones. But both IEM-s and closed back headphones have a few advantages to some people - although the sound stage seems narrower there's way less sound escaping (others can't hear what you're listening to, more outside noise is blocked, better immersion for immersive games, better experience for movies, etc).

 

As for the weight of the headphones causing neck pain - good audio does not mean heavy. The HD 560s are lightweight. Many other headphones too. And IEM-s are light too.

What makes headphones heavy is the materials used + additional stuff put inside like batteries, receivers, microphones, fancy covers, LED lights, volume rockers, EQ buttons, ...

 

Some would claim the HD 560S should have been a "HD 600 series product" soundwise, but Sennheiser called them a 500 series because they are light and because of the materials used. They punch above their weight class. 

 

Impdeance (resistance) isn't everything. The HD 560s are 120 Ohm yet they are easier to drive than a HyperX Cloud Pro (Takstar pro 80) which is 60 Ohm.

That's because they are more sensitive. Both of them do profit from a better source, but the 560s profit more (the Cloud profits only with loudness , not actual quality).

And the 560s are wired balanced so one can use them on a balanced source (4.4mm or 2.5mm jack) and get the benefits of that.

 

True.

 

Tomshardware isn't a good source for audio stuff.

 

HD 560s did not exist in 2012.

 

Rtings is not relevant. The difference between a terribly sounding gaming headset and a great sounding headphone there is less than 1 point.

They look at the trees and fail to see the forest.

 

The part about AMP&DAC + headphones combo is also partially wrong.

A $150 headphone on a $50 AMP&DAC that can feed it properly sounds better than a $200 headphone on cheap onboard or even a $500 headphone on a Realtek ALC892.

And it's sad that a $20 IEM like the 7HZ Salnotes zero or QKZ x HBB beats $300 gaming headsets when it comes to both music listening and gaming.

 

 

 

For @Oddvar Ashborn tl;dr

Get some decent headphones. Don't overspend. Avoid gaming headsets.

Get some acceptable IEM-s in the $20-$100 range.

Get a $50-$100 amp&dac (even a Syba Sonic would do, but I'd recommend something like the Akliam PD4, Truthear Shio etc).

Don't bother with virtual surround (unless you want to experiment with it).

Enjoy.

 

Btw check out those channels: Z Reviews, Crinacle Plus, Bad Guy Good Audio reviews, Joshua Valor, The Honest Audiophile, Fresh reviews, Cheapaudioman, Sharur, Gizaudio, AndyAudioVault, Lumerion, Julian Krause.

Thank you for the TL;DR xD

Are IEMs like earbuds? If so, are you suggesting i go with an headset or those?

Are AMP&DAC combined? Also, i currently have the Logitech Z906, i assume that doesn't count as an amp, right? xD

So Virtual Surround is irrelevant to my objective?

On 3/2/2023 at 3:01 PM, pas008 said:

 

vss isnt gimicky

 

game developers cant even release games without bugs what makes you think they can get sound right

i use vss in many games cause i cant pin point location of sounds without it, but many games i dont need it at all many newer ones, but then again i will play early access games too which i do need it at times

 

the game(itself), vss, av receivers, and etc all use algorithms to create the sound so the games sound algorithm is right?

so how is it gimmicky? when it actually does change the sound? we all dont ear completely the same or have same taste in sound

try hesuvi and mess around some, you will hear differences on many games if its sounds different then it might cater to someones tastes

there are many videos out there comparing them many vss, some dont do shit or sound like shit, some enhance, and some games like i said you dont need anything else

fyi i went down that audiophile route and spent lots on dac amps and headphones

still own hd600 he400 original hd558 q701 dt770 plus and owned many others

i play for immersion which is why i also play nvidia surround and i will use vss for main purpose of immersion when needed

 

i been around awhile and i heard many talking shit about atmos until they actually heard it

same with vss, thx certified theaters from back in the day  etc etc

hdmi 1.4 only had what 8 channel audio so how did people have larger channel setups?

 

Is this vss the Virtual Surround or something else?

23 hours ago, TechlessBro said:

Can we not devolve OPs topic into audio drama there are other forums for that.

 

Headphone suggestions or GTFO 

Thanks xD I've refreshed and i was like WOW!

[191x7]

10 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Since this is basically an experiment cause i've never tried something like this seriously, i've noticed that the HD6xx series is pretty expensive (like 400€) while the HD5xx series is WAY less expensive. is there such an enormous difference or can i go with the HD5xx series like the HD560 that so many have suggested to me? xD

Thank you for the TL;DR xD

Are IEMs like earbuds? If so, are you suggesting i go with an headset or those?

Are AMP&DAC combined? Also, i currently have the Logitech Z906, i assume that doesn't count as an amp, right? xD

So Virtual Surround is irrelevant to my objective?

Is this vss the Virtual Surround or something else?

Thanks xD I've refreshed and i was like WOW!

Hd 560s some claim should have been named a 600 series product sound-wise (640s) but Senn named them 560s (spin on the 650) cause of the lower price..

 

IEM-s might look like earbuds, but they are a totally different class of product. In Ear Monitors. Calling them earbuds would be comparable to calling a toy car a car.

 

I am suggesting you get both, especially because I listed the cheap IEM champions.

The Truthear Zero could be close ro the HD 559s in many regards, and the QKZ x HBB are close ro something like the Audio Technica M50x.

Or you can just get one, not both.

 

When I mention the term "Amp&dac" I usually mean a combined unit. Separate AMPs and DACs are usually pricer and take more space on the table.

Most "DACs" in the lower end tier have built in amplifiers, so those are rhe combo units. Like Akliam PD4 or Truthear Shio.

 

Z906 are speakers, right? They have a speakers Amp. And they are Logitech, so BAD audio.

 

VSS is a short of Virtual Surround Sound. And it's irrelevant to you right now. You can play with it later.

 

 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

On 3/4/2023 at 10:55 AM, 191x7 said:

Hd 560s some claim should have been named a 600 series product sound-wise (640s) but Senn named them 560s (spin on the 650) cause of the lower price..

 

IEM-s might look like earbuds, but they are a totally different class of product. In Ear Monitors. Calling them earbuds would be comparable to calling a toy car a car.

 

I am suggesting you get both, especially because I listed the cheap IEM champions.

The Truthear Zero could be close ro the HD 559s in many regards, and the QKZ x HBB are close ro something like the Audio Technica M50x.

Or you can just get one, not both.

 

When I mention the term "Amp&dac" I usually mean a combined unit. Separate AMPs and DACs are usually pricer and take more space on the table.

Most "DACs" in the lower end tier have built in amplifiers, so those are rhe combo units. Like Akliam PD4 or Truthear Shio.

 

Z906 are speakers, right? They have a speakers Amp. And they are Logitech, so BAD audio.

 

VSS is a short of Virtual Surround Sound. And it's irrelevant to you right now. You can play with it later.

 

 

In general i'd say i prefer a headset over IEM, hoping the weight won't be a problem.

About the amp&dac, do you have any other model to suggest? Cause i can't find those 2 anywhere and Amazon hasn't the slightest clue of what they are.

Also, how do i plug it in? Do i plug it in to the PC and then plug the headset into it? Or can i perhaps plug it in to the PC, plug the Z906 into it, and then plug the headset into the Z906?

Also #2, counter-intuitively as it may be (at least to me), i don't care about VSS even tho my main goal is directional sound tracking? >_>

On 3/4/2023 at 11:25 AM, TechlessBro said:

Yes 560 are good buy. If they are in your price range then go for it.

 

500 series are perfectly fine sounding and have good positioning details.

600 are say 20% better at positioning but maybe 10% better sound.

800 is 20% better positioning again but then that is only around 25% better over the 500.

 

The returns drop off very very fast as you spend more.

 

20% better positioning sounds like a lot tbh...

And none of those have VSS either, right?

[191x7]

21 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

In general i'd say i prefer a headset over IEM, hoping the weight won't be a problem.

About the amp&dac, do you have any other model to suggest? Cause i can't find those 2 anywhere and Amazon hasn't the slightest clue of what they are.

Also, how do i plug it in? Do i plug it in to the PC and then plug the headset into it? Or can i perhaps plug it in to the PC, plug the Z906 into it, and then plug the headset into the Z906?

Also #2, counter-intuitively as it may be (at least to me), i don't care about VSS even tho my main goal is directional sound tracking? >_>

20% better positioning sounds like a lot tbh...

And none of those have VSS either, right?

How can't you find the Truthear Shio?

https://www.amazon.com/Fanmusic-Truthear-SHIO-Amplifier-Single-Ended/dp/B0BRSQFYM1

 

You plug it in using USB. It's got an USB-C female port.

 

Do not plug speakers into such an amp/dac.

The Z906, just continue using them as you are, when you want to use the headphones just switch the source in Windows to the DAC.

(clicking the sound icon near the watch/date shows you the available devices)

 

Any headphones can use VSS since vss is not a function of headphones but software.

As I've mentioned, you can use Razer Surround, Dolby Atmos for headphones, DTS headphones, Windows Sonic for headphones or any other virtual sdurround you'd like.