Recommendations for a more ergonomic mouse and keyboard?

mishatoast · February 3, 2023

Let me preface this thread by saying that I have been very happy with my MX Keys and MX Master 3 from Logitech. However, years of typing, mixing, and being a musician in general have been catching up with me, particularly in my left wrist. I am in need of a more ergonomic keyboard and mouse. Here's what I LOVE about my current setup, what features I'd love to have, and what features I can't really give up moving forward.

What I LOVE about my current set up:
- The ability to sync bluetooth to multiple devices.
- The SIDE SCROLLER on the mouse.
- Bluetooth.

What I want to have in an ergo keyboard and mouse:
- Get my wrists rotated a bit more vertical.
- Slim keys similar to the MX Keys or a laptop.

What I DO NOT want:
- Mechanical keys or regular membrane with tall keys (like a standard keyboard would have).
- A split keyboard. I still need to be able to type quickly (since some if you misinterpret this: I means I don't want to have to re-learn how to use a new type of keyboard, not that I'm trying to break some wpm record).

Non-Negotiables:
- Bluetooth. My PC sits about 5 feet away from my desk.
- The ability to switch at least the keyboard between devices. I frequently need to switch my keyboard between pc and phone.
- Side scroller on mouse. I understand this is going to be difficult; unfortunately, it has become a critical part of my workflow in the studio, allowing me to scroll along sessions speed I haven't found in other tools.

191x7 · February 3, 2023

What many get wrong is - slim keyboards where the keys have a short travel distance are ergonomically a lot worse than those "with tall keys".

For RSI or carpal tunel syndrome you need tall keys with decent travel, the back of the keyboard tilted down (at least not raised!) and the keyboard has to be on a soft surface (for example a desk mat) or using a comfortable wrist rest.

Seen too many hands destroyed by slim keyboards (scissor switch, slim membrane, ...) on hard surfaces (desk).

For the mouse, a vertical mouse might help with the symptoms, but it won't help with healing or preventing further damage.

What will help is a lightweight mouse on a comfortable surface (large thick mouse pad without the damaging wrist rest).

For a keyboard wrist rests are great because you don't move your hands that much while typing. For a mouse, they help destroy your wrist. Avoid for a mouse.

And fast typing without a mechanical keyboard, that's not a thing.

mishatoast · February 8, 2023

On 2/3/2023 at 1:32 AM, 191x7 said:

What many get wrong is - slim keyboards where the keys have a short travel distance are ergonomically a lot worse than those "with tall keys".

For RSI or carpal tunel syndrome you need tall keys with decent travel, the back of the keyboard tilted down (at least not raised!) and the keyboard has to be on a soft surface (for example a desk mat) or using a comfortable wrist rest.

Seen too many hands destroyed by slim keyboards (scissor switch, slim membrane, ...) on hard surfaces (desk).

For the mouse, a vertical mouse might help with the symptoms, but it won't help with healing or preventing further damage.

What will help is a lightweight mouse on a comfortable surface (large thick mouse pad without the damaging wrist rest).

For a keyboard wrist rests are great because you don't move your hands that much while typing. For a mouse, they help destroy your wrist. Avoid for a mouse.

And fast typing without a mechanical keyboard, that's not a thing.

Wow. You spent quite a bit of time assuming my reasoning behind wanting a slim keyboard. I don't care about typing speed. It has to do more with how much quieter slimmer or laptop-stop keyboards have been for me as opposed to something with tall keys (mech or membrane). I am a musician and audio engineer by trade, so noise is a huge factor in what I do. And yes, no type of mouse will help heal or prevent damage. At this point it's about managing symptoms in a way that works for the environment I am in. I also don't have space for a wrist rest. I don't even have a desk, per se.

But congratulations on going down a rabbit hole without even stopping to gather more information.

"Hi I'm looking for a more ergonomic keyboard with xyz features." "NO YOU'RE WRONG."

Okay thanks that's great awesome wow. Stellar job. Slow clap.

On 2/5/2023 at 2:03 AM, lw88 said:

TL;DR - Put your keyboard in front and centre, elbows 90 degrees to table, hands slightly toward the middle, mouse same but change elevation slightly, ergo keyboard/mouse are only going to help somewhat, wrist rests generally bad.

Only some of what you said is correct.

Decline angle on the keyboard isn't necessary. What works is that your wrist is not under pressure, pronated or supinated, flexed or extended. That is to say your wrist should go straight. Not necessarily down, unless your forearm is already angled down. Actually, the cross sectional area of the carpal tunnel increases during wrist extension, so if anything having your wrist flexed like that constantly would be worse for your nerves. Wrist rests put pressure on the carpal tunnel, which also aggravates the nerves and condition.

The best solution is to keep the keyboard at a 90 degree angle to the wrist with the forearm flat, and arms extended in front without uncomfortable ulnar or radial deviation. I.e. Set up your desk so that it is actually comfortable to work at and you don't have to reach under it or crank your wrist at an unnatural angle to use your keyboard. This means putting the keyboard in front of you in the centre of your body, and possibly moving the mouse to the same position but on a different elevation.

Ergo keyboards and mice are great, and can really help with pronation and supination (twisting of the wrist) if they keep your wrist closer to its natural position but won't correct for improper keyboard and mouse placement.

Reaching too far, having the keyboard too close, and turning the keyboard at an angle like one might for playing an FPS and having comfortable access to WASD will all compound the problem.

TL;DR - Somewhat is better than nothing.

Yeah where I'm at, my keyboard and mouse sit atop a mixing console so the most comfortable position I have has my elbows on the armest of my chair and my forearms angled in toward the keyboard. I try to keep my wrists as straight as I can and just move my fingers a little differently as needed, but that combined with 15 years of playing guitar (atop previous injuries) has been causing intermittent inflammation in my left wrist. I definitely do all the things my doc recommends as much as I can to help manage the symptoms, and they've made it clear to me that because of the stress my occupation puts on my wrist I will likely need surgery down the road. But for now, a more ergonomic keyboard and vertical mouse will help keep some of the pain at bay.

I just have a couple feature necessities that I really can't do without.

mutrax · February 11, 2023

Hey,

I love mice, but after using them for a few hours my wrist sounds like a ratchet. I've made the transfer to trackballs, and landed eventually on the kensington expert mouse. They also have a BT version, but I bought 2 wired of them just if they should break and be out of production (They're still producing).

Pro's, with that kind of config, you can reposition the angle of your wrist whenever you want. I work a screen related job and my wrist is a-ok now as long as I don't fall back to a real mouse.

Cons; Not really suited for split second precision in fps gaming. No extra buttons (well you can program it so you have one button to pic, and two extra combos). First days of usage -> wtf? after a week -> nice

As I said, they also have a BT version (which I don't have). O yeah, you also get to relive the experience of cleaning your ball(s) once in a while.

mishatoast · February 11, 2023

2 hours ago, mutrax said:

Hey,

I love mice, but after using them for a few hours my wrist sounds like a ratchet. I've made the transfer to trackballs, and landed eventually on the kensington expert mouse. They also have a BT version, but I bought 2 wired of them just if they should break and be out of production (They're still producing).

Pro's, with that kind of config, you can reposition the angle of your wrist whenever you want. I work a screen related job and my wrist is a-ok now as long as I don't fall back to a real mouse.

Cons; Not really suited for split second precision in fps gaming. No extra buttons (well you can program it so you have one button to pic, and two extra combos). First days of usage -> wtf? after a week -> nice

As I said, they also have a BT version (which I don't have). O yeah, you also get to relive the experience of cleaning your ball(s) once in a while.

I've actually considered trying one of these, as they are common in recording studios, but I've also heard they're a nightmare to work with. Does this support side scrolling, per chance?